SSJGSSJ vs. SSJG

[FortuneSSJ]

Super Saiyan > Base form, always.

Chou Gohan begs to disagree

Nop, he agrees with me.
Because Mystic is not a base form.

[supercat]

While SSGSS probably isn't worlds above SSG, I'm guessing it's still noticeably stronger. Goku retained a good portion of his SSG power even after the transformation faded away. Although the boost is no where near the 50x multiplier it once was, turing SSJ on top of the retained SSG powers probably helped him surpass the level he was at against Beerus.

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 12 (12.5 or 13 at the best)
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Frieza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
Base Goku: 4.5 - 5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
Final Form Frieza (FnF): 4
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5

[Bullza]

I'd say SSGSS Goku was probably a 7. It was sort of implied that Vegeta was weaker perhaps so he might be a little lower. Golden Frieza at a 7.

I say this based on Toriyama's comment that Frieza is no match for Beerus at all.

I have no idea how base Goku fits into it.

I see what he meant about red looking a stronger colour. I watched the Goku and Superman 2 Death Battle and Goku transforms from SSJG to SSGSS but he does look weaker. I personally think they should have stuck with red and maybe changed the hairstyle up.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because Mystic is not a base form.

How? It's not a transformation, that's for sure.

[Truhan]

It's a power up that is capable of moving a strand of hair down from Gohan's combed hair.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I have no idea how base Goku fits into it.

If Super Saiyan God Goku is a 6, then Saiyan beyond God Goku should be at around 5.9, since Beerus said that his power decrease was insignificant.

[Chuquita]

I hadn't thought of it based on "before most of Gokû's ssjg power started to escape from his body"; in that case, yeah I guess it is possible that at the start of his battle with Beerus his ssjg could've been stronger than his blueper.

[FortuneSSJ]

Because Mystic is not a base form.

How? It's not a transformation, that's for sure.

Spoiler:

Its kinda a transformation, yes.
He needs to power up (like he does to turn ssj) everytime he wants to use it. If it was a base form he would stay like that 24/7.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Throw in a Kiai, like going Super Saiyan, just to access his now unlocked power for the first time, nothing says he has to do that every time.

Rou Kaioshin explicitly said transformations are the wrong way of doing things, why the heck would he give Gohan another transformation?

How is Movie 13 any evidence? That's TOEI, not the manga. It's not like TOEI was even consistent with that, since pretty much made it his base form in GT and have him go SS on top of it.

[FortuneSSJ]

You can use Battle of Gods if you want.
It doesn't matter if its from Toei or no, the point is that he needs to power up everytime he wants to use it.

[Tectorman]

Gohan's Mystic power is assuredly not a transformation, but that doesn't equate to being an automatic and permanent change in his Base power, either. After all, Kaioken isn't a transformation, but Goku's Base didn't change because of the technique.

Of course, it is possible that it entirely rewrote Gohan's capabilities. I'm hoping Super will give us more details about how it works, if it is, in fact, always on, what happens if he goes SSJ anyway*, etc.

*Obviously, he still has the transformation up to FnF and he used it in BoG. But did he drop from his Mystic power to his SSJ? Did his power stay exactly the same, but with an added strain? Did he go Mystic times some multiplier?

[dbgtFO]

Of course, it is possible that it entirely rewrote Gohan's capabilities. I'm hoping Super will give us more details about how it works, if it is, in fact, always on, what happens if he goes SSJ anyway*, etc.

*Obviously, he still has the transformation up to FnF and he used it in BoG. But did he drop from his Mystic power to his SSJ? Did his power stay exactly the same, but with an added strain? Did he go Mystic times some multiplier?

I wouldn't get my hopes up. Most likely they will have it like BoG, where he turns SS for the ritual and nobody cares to comment.

As far as being on topic..
I think at first Toriyama intended to just have Goku use the golden Super Saiyan as a means of drawing out his newfound god power and maybe go all the way up to SSG in dire need.
But he probably felt he needed to change things, when the decision to bring back Freeza was made, because having Super Saiyan Goku up against Freeza would just look too similar to their battle on Namek or maybe Golden Super Saiyan clashing with Golden Freeza would look odd.

The Heroes game and some promotional material would have us believe that SSGSS is even more powerful than Super Saiyan God, but not only is that standard reasoning for promotional material to hype up everything new as the strongest or best or what have you, but the movie itself just has Goku saying it's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.
As far as I'm concerned Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has at most the same power, Goku would have as a Super Saiyan God, not more.
I think we'll get it better explained in the TV series, who knows, maybe Toriyama hasn't revealed much about it yet, because he wanted to explain it properly later on.

[h0kuten]

SSJG SS:
Is simply a way of accessing Super Saiyan God power without the ritual. It uses the Super Saiyan transformation as a output source to do so.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SSJG SS:
Is simply a way of accessing Super Saiyan God power without the ritual. It uses the Super Saiyan transformation as a output source to do so.

But Goku already has access to almost all of the SSG power in his base form, and he can transform into a SSG on his own, but he doesn't need to because the difference with his base is insignificant.

[Low Tone G]

SSJG SS:
Is simply a way of accessing Super Saiyan God power without the ritual. It uses the Super Saiyan transformation as a output source to do so.

But Goku already has access to almost all of the SSG power in his base form, and he can transform into a SSG on his own, but he doesn't need to because the difference with his base is insignificant.

That's not quite true... Goku maybe is able to take the form of the Super Saiyan God(red haired form) on his own, but not willingly. He may not need to transform into the form as he as its most power in base, but without it maybe he can not do moves like absorbing attacks. I think the SSJGSSJ form it's simply a level of power when he can use all of the power of Super Saiyan God, but willingly. Goku transform into the red God form out of necessity in BOG, not willingly. So I tihink even if the red form doesn't really have too much to add in power, but maybe Goku realized that the form has some unic treats which he can use of. So He maybe has found this new blue form to replace it during tha training with master, Whis. I think basing that the time that has passed from BOG, Goku had to surpass his power from BOG in SSGSS, but the form is not necessarily weaker than his red from, I think that it's exactly equal with that.

Saiyan beyond God Goku < Super Saiyan Goku(God power absorbed) < Super Saiyan God Goku = Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku(unkown moment of time after BOG) < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku (FnF)

[Truhan]

It's easy: Goku had a red aura when he was a SSJG, and a white aura when had the God power absorbed. For him to have a blue one with the SSJ ritual instead of a golden one, he had to release that power and allow it to surround him like SSJG's did. SSJG SSJ is the next step of SSJG, like butterfly wings after the larva is kept in a cocoon. We just have to consider that Base Goku with God power absorbed is that cocoon

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's not quite true... Goku maybe is able to take the form of the Super Saiyan God(red haired form) on his own, but not willingly. He may not need to transform into the form as he as its most power in base, but without it maybe he can not do moves like absorbing attacks. I think the SSJGSSJ form it's simply a level of power when he can use all of the power of Super Saiyan God, but willingly. Goku transform into the red God form out of necessity in BOG, not willingly. So I tihink even if the red form doesn't really have too much to add in power, but maybe Goku realized that the form has some unic treats which he can use of. So He maybe has found this new blue form to replace it during tha training with master, Whis. I think basing that the time that has passed from BOG, Goku had to surpass his power from BOG in SSGSS, but the form is not necessarily weaker than his red from, I think that it's exactly equal with that.

Toriyama said that Goku can still transform into a Super Saiyan God, but he no longer needs to, and that we will probably understand this after watching BoG, so he isn't talking about SSGSS.

We also don't know exactly what happened with Beerus' attack. We don't know if he absorbed it, or if he just made it explode. And even if he did have special powers

Saiyan beyond God Goku < Super Saiyan Goku(God power absorbed) < Super Saiyan God Goku = Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku(unkown moment of time after BOG) < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku (FnF)

It actually sounds more like this:

Base Saiyan beyond God Goku <= SS SbG Goku <= Super Saiyan God Goku < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku

[Low Tone G]

That's not quite true... Goku maybe is able to take the form of the Super Saiyan God(red haired form) on his own, but not willingly. He may not need to transform into the form as he as its most power in base, but without it maybe he can not do moves like absorbing attacks. I think the SSJGSSJ form it's simply a level of power when he can use all of the power of Super Saiyan God, but willingly. Goku transform into the red God form out of necessity in BOG, not willingly. So I tihink even if the red form doesn't really have too much to add in power, but maybe Goku realized that the form has some unic treats which he can use of. So He maybe has found this new blue form to replace it during tha training with master, Whis. I think basing that the time that has passed from BOG, Goku had to surpass his power from BOG in SSGSS, but the form is not necessarily weaker than his red from, I think that it's exactly equal with that.

Toriyama said that Goku can still transform into a Super Saiyan God, but he no longer needs to, and that we will probably understand this after watching BoG, so he isn't talking about SSGSS.

We also don't know exactly what happened with Beerus' attack. We don't know if he absorbed it, or if he just made it explode. And even if he did have special powers

Saiyan beyond God Goku < Super Saiyan Goku(God power absorbed) < Super Saiyan God Goku = Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku(unkown moment of time after BOG) < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku (FnF)

It actually sounds more like this:

Base Saiyan beyond God Goku <= SS SbG Goku <= Super Saiyan God Goku < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku

I really think that Toriyama meant that Goku can transform into a God via that ritual... I'm certain that He wanted to point out that Goku is a genius and absorbed the godly power, so he doesn't need that ritual anymore. And I wanted to make an attempt to explain why did Goku's Golden SSJ change to a blue one, having both God power at disposal. I think that the full recovering of the God Ki changed Goku's Golden SSJ into a blue one. So I think that Goku's God power did decreased a bit when he lost that red form, so by training he could fill the remaining gap, so in that moment his Golden SSJ from BoG transformed into a Blue one. So that's why I think that Goku's Blue SSJ at the beginning was equal with his Super Saiyan God.

[h0kuten]

Beerus
~Full Power 10

Golden Frieza
~Full Power 7

Goku
~SSJG SS 6

Vegeta
~SSJG SS 6

Goku (BoG)
~SSJG 6

I guess this makes more sense, considering Goku is still blown away by Beerus' power when he fired a blast and exploded two suns. Even when this occurred, Goku had the SSJG SS transformation up his sleeve. Although, and that's a big although, Whiss states a team of Goku & Vegeta in the SSJG SS transformation could potentially beat Beerus at full power. We've seen 40% gaps before (Goku Ssj3 vs Fat Buu for example), and it surely wouldn't be possible.

So maybe this is more likely:

Golden Frieza
~Full Power 9

Goku
~SSJG SS 8
Vegeta
~SSJG SS 8

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I really think that Toriyama meant that Goku can transform into a God via that ritual... I'm certain that He wanted to point out that Goku is a genius and absorbed the godly power, so he doesn't need that ritual anymore. And I wanted to make an attempt to explain why did Goku's Golden SSJ change to a blue one, having both God power at disposal. I think that the full recovering of the God Ki changed Goku's Golden SSJ into a blue one. So I think that Goku's God power did decreased a bit when he lost that red form, so by training he could fill the remaining gap, so in that moment his Golden SSJ from BoG transformed into a Blue one. So that's why I think that Goku's Blue SSJ at the beginning was equal with his Super Saiyan God.

Toriyama clearly says that he doesn't need to transform into a Super Saiyan God anymore, not just through the ritual, and the movie is almost as clear about that as well.