Base Goku > Base Goten > #18 > FreezaDaisetsu wrote:So, Kaioshin is weaker than base Goku... who is weaker than Freeza... who is weaker than Kaioshin...xmysticgohanx wrote:Weaker than Yakon which means weaker than base Goku
Are you saying this is just a case of rock paper scissors?
There's nothing though stating or even suggesting that base Goten was above #18. Until he and Trunks transformed, #18 was still under the impression that they were simply a strong human, and there wasn't any indication she was giving it her all as a result. In addition, by their own words, their course of action (transforming and using a kiai cannon) was their only means of ending the fight.xmysticgohanx wrote: Base Goku > Base Goten > #18 > Freeza
Feats >>> Statememts
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
You got me there. But it's possible that he didn't stay because Goku told him to leave, and Goku knew that Vegeta wouldn't be of much help either.rereboy wrote:If that was the case he would be more helpful than Vegeta against Kid Buu and, thus, had no reason to leave it to just them.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: so I guess this would place him below SS3 Goku, but probably above the SS2s.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Yeah, but it seems that Gohan didn't have SS in his mind, since he suggests Goku to fight him together later, but Goku choses to use SS.Gohan knew Goku could turn Super Saiyan if necessary, and Goku knows this also. Kaioshin seemed unaware of how Super Saiyan/2 worked until after Goku's SS2 burst at Yakon.
He said that Kaioshin was in another dimension, which means that he was much stronger than him. And facing an unknown & unusually strong guy isn't the same as fighting your stronger-than-you buddies. The Daizenshuu confirm that Kaioshin is indeed stronger than Piccolo.Seemed more like his status, if anything. Piccolo stated he didn't know why he was so afraid of Kaioshin, not that he feared Kaioshin's strength. Besides, he entered the tournament knowing Goku/Gohan/Vegeta were entering, so it's not like he wasn't already expecting strong enemies or anything.
Who says it's magic? Paralysis Arts is a ki technique that has limits. Blue & Chaozu couldn't freeze Taopaipai & Nappa respectively because they were too strong for them, and the fact that it was hard for him to freeze Gohan means that his version of the ability also has limits.Magic, not Ki. All he's ever shown with magic is restraint and materialization, the former is pretty much pointless without a stronger partner to attack if Kaioshin's too weak to actually physically hurt his opponent.
Kame-sennin didn't know exactly how strong Goku was, he believed that Goku may had surpassed him because Goku could beat the entire RRA, while he didn't think he would have been capable of this.I don't see how this proves he wasn't surpassed before. Roshi only noted Goku may be stronger than himself during the Uranai Baba arc despite a much weaker Goku matching, if not having a super tiny power advantage against himself back at the 21st TB.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
Y-You're just fucking with me!fadeddreams5 wrote:About as strong as an ant, if an ant was this big.
Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin? Despite the fact that Piccolo said this in regards to the gap of strength between him and Kaioshin in the manga: "Our dimensions... are too different." Hell, Daizenshuu 7 goes even further and states that Kaioshin possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo". I don't know how much more clear cut it can get than that.ahill1 wrote:Kaioshin is weaker than Yakon for sure; I do not know how he relates to Pui Pui, I think he can be stronger than Pocus.
Piccolo >> Base Goku ~ yakon > Kaioshin.
Not to mention that he is implied to be stronger than the Super Saiyans.Lord Beerus wrote:Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin? Despite the fact that Piccolo said this in regards to the gap of strength between him and Kaioshin in the manga: "Our dimensions... are too different." Hell, Daizenshuu 7 goes even further and states that Kaioshin possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo". I don't know how much more clear cut it can get than that.ahill1 wrote:Kaioshin is weaker than Yakon for sure; I do not know how he relates to Pui Pui, I think he can be stronger than Pocus.
Piccolo >> Base Goku ~ yakon > Kaioshin.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Daizenshuu 7 satates too that Piccolo Daimao is stronger than Tenshinhan(23rd TB);Lord Beerus wrote:Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin? Despite the fact that Piccolo said this in regards to the gap of strength between him and Kaioshin in the manga: "Our dimensions... are too different." Hell, Daizenshuu 7 goes even further and states that Kaioshin possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo". I don't know how much more clear cut it can get than that.ahill1 wrote:Kaioshin is weaker than Yakon for sure; I do not know how he relates to Pui Pui, I think he can be stronger than Pocus.
Piccolo >> Base Goku ~ yakon > Kaioshin.
That doesn't make any sense. Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza... and Kaioshin can one shot Freeza. That is unequivocally stated in the manga. How could Kaioshin be weaker than the base Saiyans if Kaioshin could one shot a person who is stronger than the Base Saiyans?ahill1 wrote:Daizenshuu 7 satates too that Piccolo Daimao is stronger than Tenshinhan(23rd TB);Lord Beerus wrote:Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin? Despite the fact that Piccolo said this in regards to the gap of strength between him and Kaioshin in the manga: "Our dimensions... are too different." Hell, Daizenshuu 7 goes even further and states that Kaioshin possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo". I don't know how much more clear cut it can get than that.ahill1 wrote:Kaioshin is weaker than Yakon for sure; I do not know how he relates to Pui Pui, I think he can be stronger than Pocus.
Piccolo >> Base Goku ~ yakon > Kaioshin.
Piccolo never states that Kaioshin is stronger than himself; Piccolo is stronger than saiyans base and Kaioshin is weaker.
He chose fighting together over using SS because he saw it's ineffective against Yakon, since Yakon ate Goku's light energy.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Yeah, but it seems that Gohan didn't have SS in his mind, since he suggests Goku to fight him together later, but Goku choses to use SS.
Vegeta also says Kaioshin's Ki can't be sensed, just like no one could sense Beers/Whis' Ki in Battle of Gods.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He said that Kaioshin was in another dimension, which means that he was much stronger than him. And facing an unknown & unusually strong guy isn't the same as fighting your stronger-than-you buddies.
If you're going to use the Daizenshuu..DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Who says it's magic? Paralysis Arts is a ki technique that has limits. Blue & Chaozu couldn't freeze Taopaipai & Nappa respectively because they were too strong for them, and the fact that it was hard for him to freeze Gohan means that his version of the ability also has limits.
Daizenshuu 7 wrote:"A technique that prevents the opponent from moving their body. Depending on the user, the method of using it and its effect are completely different. General Blue's version was only effective against a single opponent, and it took effect when his opponent stared into his eyes. Chaozu held out both his hands, causing immobilizing stomach pain in the targeted person. Jackie's technique was said to poke a pressure point on the forehead, paralyzing the person's motor nerves. Gurd stopped Kuririn and Son Gohan's movement through psychokinesis which t he fired from his hands, and his version was effective against multiple people. Also, Kaioshin's technique was a powerful one that completely stopped Super Saiyan Gohan from moving."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Roshi not say that during the Uranai Baba saga? When Goku's fighting the Mummy?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Kame-sennin didn't know exactly how strong Goku was, he believed that Goku may had surpassed him because Goku could beat the entire RRA, while he didn't think he would have been capable of this.
Definitely not implied to be stronger than the Super Saiyans when he's cowering in fear from Dabra who's "implied" to be weaker than SS Vegeta.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Not to mention that he is implied to be stronger than the Super Saiyans.
Looks like you're estimate is off, Lord Beerus.Lord Beerus wrote: That doesn't make any sense. Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza... and Kaioshin can one shot Freeza. That is unequivocally stated in the manga. How could Kaioshin be weaker than the base Saiyans if Kaioshin could one shot a person who is stronger than the Base Saiyans?
fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
This implies that he was weaker. It's not a certain, but feels like the most correct assessment taking into account the overall picture.Zelvin wrote:I don't believe Piccolo ever stated that Shin (Supreme Kai) was stronger than him, only that he refused to fight him because he sensed that Shin's energy was different from everyone elses and waited until after to ask if he was the Grand Kai, only for Kibito to correct his assumption. Piccolo refused to fight Shin. Not because he was afraid or because Shin was stronger, but because the part of him that was Kami allowed him to sense what Shin was and he wanted to know why one of the Kai's was on Earth.
Well, in a fandom where people still somehow try to deny Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu >>> SS3 Goku >= Pure Buu...Zombie wrote:Kaioshin >> Piccolo >>>>> Freeza > Base Saiyans is such an undeniable fact now that it amazes me how some people still can't accept it.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
How is my estimate off?DBZAOTA482 wrote:Looks like you're estimate is off, Lord Beerus.Lord Beerus wrote: That doesn't make any sense. Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza... and Kaioshin can one shot Freeza. That is unequivocally stated in the manga. How could Kaioshin be weaker than the base Saiyans if Kaioshin could one shot a person who is stronger than the Base Saiyans?
