Was Ultimate Gohan ever a good idea?

[B]

Yeah, I will throw it out there that I will occasionally think "is Gohan going Ultimate or is he just generically powering up?" Does he even have to "go" Ultimate to begin with? For the sake of the video games, I get why it's a transformation, but it just seemed like Gohan's strength was "brought out" all on its own in the series proper.

[sintzu]

Why bother giving him such a power up if he isn't going to do anything with it ?

Super Buu out smarted him which lead to him nearly getting killed,he had no part in the Buu arc's final battle even though he was the stronger character at the time&he'sis treated like a bug by Beerus in Super and will probably be treated the same or worse when Freeza is brought back.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Aside from the inconsistent animation issues with Gohan's face, I'm saying this once. Piccolo did mention in the Manga how Gohan looked much "different" when he was facing off with Super Buu. So I think there is a distinction between Base and Ultimate forms.

[Truhan]

The problem is that Gohan has transformed into SSJ again in RoF, and I don't subscribe to the theory of him losing power, because it wasn't the case between the Cell games and the Babidi/Boo chapters. I had a new idea that helped his case and other characters' as well:
- Goku absorbed God power and stretched his limits to the point where only SSJ was needed (in BoG), compared to his previous attempt against Beerus as a SSJ3;
- Gohan got his limits expanded at base, so that he was only a few steps short of SSJ (in RoF), after SSJ2 was rendered useless to him. His new base state is stronger.

I guess that once you reach a certain level, compared to your potential, you're allowed to transform. Gohan's potential was increased by the ritual, and so that means a whole new level to unlock SSJ again. "Ultimate" Gohan had always been at base, with a serious look for when he powered up.

[mikey4111]

I can totally tell the difference between his base form and ultimate form. His hair is the same as SSJ2 just black, and his eyes are fully enclosed.

[Berserker1921]

Ultimate gohan was a cheat. A lot of the Buu saga was a cheat. From the fusions to the potential unleashed. But gohans was biggest cheat or plot convience. I think Toriyama was hammered by the fans saying why isn't gohan getting any love? Why is he so weak? So instead of what he does in super and RoF. Making him a joke in response. He decideds to appease the gohan fans. He creates old Kai and his technique. Which unleashes gohans power and makes him a thousand times stronger. However he is still defeated by Buu through trickery. Also the fact when gohan gets immense power he becomes dick and way too over confident. This was boost to appease fans. I mean goten and trunks had to train to achieve their form. And Goku and Vegeta merging was about character developement. About two rivals deciding to put away their differences for the greater good. However this was to appease gohan fans. And once Toriyama decided to let him shine. He was like okay now to make him a wimp again.

[NitroEX]

I think it was a cool concept but a rushed (and forgettable) execution. The main issue being that Ultimate Gohan has no signature moves. He fights Buu for a few pages and uses basic punches.

This issue really stands out when it comes to the games/merchandise. I think Ultimate Gohan has fewer unique moves/scenes than Radditz.

I totally agree, huge missed opportunity right there. The Kais could have taught him a new move whilst he was training with the sword or somehow made it a part of the ritual. Alternatively if Toriyama wanted to add some extra tension to the fight with Buu (and keep in line with the Mr. Miyagi style teaching of the old kai) then have Gohan's power unlocked by the ritual as usual but tell him that he must discover his new technique by himself. If he's still trying to figure out his powers during the fight then that adds a whole nother level of intrigue to an otherwise boring fight.

[dbzfan7]

One of my problems with the potential unlock is that they essentially just did it twice. They did it on Namek first, though there you'd kinda forget as it amounted to nothing and he still had hidden power and rage boosts on top of it. In the Boo arc is where there's no more rage boosts. It probably woulda been better if maybe some image training was part of it, but eh. I'd say the Super God Water was a little better simply cause it required Goku to tough out a lethal poison. Though the way he got it I suppose is pretty dumb since Karin had it the whole time on the very first trip up the tower, and the fake water was the real deal.

Though it's still not as stupid as happy fun time circle which shits on all power boosts, has no consequence, and allows someone to overcome the only weakness it has. It also can just be passed on to any current saiyan without a problem. Least with the Elder Kaioshin ritual not everyone can get ridiculously strong. With happy fun time circle, we can have Super God Fetus Pan. It's also not as contrived as LOLRAGETA either which has no reason to exist. Though really the only reason for this ritual to exist is so Gohan can't have rage boosts no more.

[Zephyr]

It also can just be passed on to any current saiyan without a problem. Least with the Elder Kaioshin ritual not everyone can get ridiculously strong. With happy fun time circle, we can have Super God Fetus Pan.

To be fair, we don't exactly have full confirmation of this yet. For all we know a Super Saiyan God might not be able to contribute his energy to another ritual; they could have found a way to get into contact with Tarble. Yeah, for all we know Goku could be part of Vegeta's ritual and it really could be that simple and abusable, but we should wait to see if Super sheds some light on it, if at all, before making full blown conclusions like this.

[dbzfan7]

It also can just be passed on to any current saiyan without a problem. Least with the Elder Kaioshin ritual not everyone can get ridiculously strong. With happy fun time circle, we can have Super God Fetus Pan.

To be fair, we don't exactly have full confirmation of this yet. For all we know a Super Saiyan God might not be able to contribute his energy to another ritual; they could have found a way to get into contact with Tarble. Yeah, for all we know Goku could be part of Vegeta's ritual and it really could be that simple and abusable, but we should wait to see if Super sheds some light on it, if at all, before making full blown conclusions like this.

There's no word if Tarble even exists in Super as of yet. Though honestly if SSGSS did have a limitation where godly saiyans can't partake in the ritual, that'd be good. It'd pretty much kill any worth the other saiyans have, but it'd at least make it so there's an excuse why they don't just exploit the hell out of this seemingly super easy no drawback ritual.

[Zephyr]

There's no word if Tarble even exists in Super as of yet. Though honestly if SSGSS did have a limitation where godly saiyans can't partake in the ritual, that'd be good. It'd pretty much kill any worth the other saiyans have, but it'd at least make it so there's an excuse why they don't just exploit the hell out of this seemingly super easy no drawback ritual.

Oh yeah that's true, they've not yet adapted anything from the JSAT. And yeah, I'm really hoping there's a limitation on it, otherwise it'd be stupidly busted like you're saying. Not getting my hopes too high though, they don't seem keen on doing their homework or thinking in-universe ramifications out as much as we'd like them to. Though if they leave it as vague as it is right now, then I'm sticking with that as a headcanon thing.

I could see them trying to squeeze some sort of Tarble thing in between the BoG and RoF arcs.

[dbzfan7]

There's no word if Tarble even exists in Super as of yet. Though honestly if SSGSS did have a limitation where godly saiyans can't partake in the ritual, that'd be good. It'd pretty much kill any worth the other saiyans have, but it'd at least make it so there's an excuse why they don't just exploit the hell out of this seemingly super easy no drawback ritual.

Oh yeah that's true, they've not yet adapted anything from the JSAT. And yeah, I'm really hoping there's a limitation on it, otherwise it'd be stupidly busted like you're saying. Not getting my hopes too high though, they don't seem keen on doing their homework or thinking in-universe ramifications out as much as we'd like them to. Though if they leave it as vague as it is right now, then I'm sticking with that as a headcanon thing.

I could see them trying to squeeze some sort of Tarble thing in between the BoG and RoF arcs.

I could possibly see them mentioning Tarble in Super anyways without ever introducing him. Maybe we'll know by the next episode. I'm pretty mixed on SSGSS/SSG when it comes to it's use. It's already loses points by having an unfavourable back story for me. When the situation was as convenient as it was, it's way too easy to achieve. The only draw back it has can be bypassed in a ridiculously short amount of time. It takes Goku & Vegeta's base states to ridiculous levels that even without transforming they massively dwarf everyone sans gods. It's quite possibly super exploitive and no one really has a good reason to not spend a short amount of time achieving power they'd never reach in their life times. And for me personally the look for both is horribly uninspired...cept skinny Goku concept.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

So with Dragon Ball Super making no effort whatsoever to have a consistent power-up for Gohan, what are some conceivable (in-universe) explanations for why he's using both? With GT you could at least say the Ultimate ability "wore off" due to Gohan's lack of training or something, but things get difficult when he's Ultimate one minute and Super Saiyan the next. (An inconsistency which will go far beyond the SSJ ritual if the script to RoF is kept close enough.)

Especially when you have TOEI actually trying to MARKET Ultimate Gohan in the intro of the show. "They forgot" isn't even an excuse anymore.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Nothing says Gohan lost his Ultimate in GT, he's stated to have trained, but I don't want to start that debate again, as it's off topic. I just wanted to point that out.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Yeah, I was just saying that back then, that could conceivably be an explanation.

Now it seems like we have nothing. ...Unless Gohan just likes the way Super Saiyan looks. >.>

[Doctor.]

So with Dragon Ball Super making no effort whatsoever to have a consistent power-up for Gohan, what are some conceivable (in-universe) explanations for why he's using both? With GT you could at least say the Ultimate ability "wore off" due to Gohan's lack of training or something, but things get difficult when he's Ultimate one minute and Super Saiyan the next. (An inconsistency which will go far beyond the SSJ ritual if the script to RoF is kept close enough.)

Especially when you have TOEI actually trying to MARKET Ultimate Gohan in the intro of the show. "They forgot" isn't even an excuse anymore.

Wait what? Super has kept Gohan's ultimate state. The fact that he used it to 'fight' Beerus is proof enough. Him using SS for the ritual just proves that he CAN use SS even with his ultimate state, why are you dismissing it as nonsense?

[h0kuten]

Ultimate Gohan was probably the worst and most useless idea. Why? The Cell Games is basically all about Gohan learning to control his dormant power, than they just shit on it by the time the Boo Saga rolls around. Not only that, but they had to bring Gohan way--way past his limits just to keep him relevant in the series. Than they just shit on him again, and now the gap between Goku SSJG and Ultimate Gohan is infinitely larger than the gap between Goku Ssj3 & Ultimate Gohan.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Wait what? Super has kept Gohan's ultimate state. The fact that he used it to 'fight' Beerus is proof enough. Him using SS for the ritual just proves that he CAN use SS even with his ultimate state, why are you dismissing it as nonsense?

And my whole point has been that the two states' co-existence will do nothing but confuse viewers. Is Super Saiyan just for show now, not powering up Ultimate Gohan at all since his full potential has already been unlocked? Or does it actually make Ultimate Gohan stronger, even though the entire purpose of Ultimate Gohan was to render the Super Saiyan forms obsolete?

In the case of the latter, that means the part of the intro with Goku, Goten, and Gohan powering up to their "strongest" forms pre-BoG is totally misleading. But if it actually seriously doesn't do anything anymore outside of rituals...kind of dumb that he's still going Super Saiyan in RoF then, all for literally no reason. (But I guess SOMEONE still has to go Super Saiyan considering that both Goku and Vegeta have all but stolen Gohan's "super powerful in base form" shtick.)

[Noah]

You know I was thinking about it these days and I will say: No

Why? Look at all the problems that brought it:

Super Saiyan was a iconic transformation in the franchise, having Gohan be all powerful just in "his base" felt kinda odd, not only for some fans but to the writers/directors too, that's why I imagine their confusion in change or not the fact that Gohan doesn't need Super Saiyan anymore and then they came up with this excuse that he's been a slacker and all his power was gone...

And to be honest we all know that Gohan isn't supposed to be "Mystic" in BoG if wasn't the fans complaining about he being a Super Saiyan again, and there's come RoF with Gohan having lost (?) his power up in 9 months, wow

It's really hard for we to have a good backstory explaining more facts about this magical power-up?

Is this "Mystic" form requires some kind of maintenance training or else it will disappear forever?

BoG confirmed that Ultimate Gohan could still turn SSJ, but what that would be? Just a change of pallete? It affect something or his power? Gohan probably was Mystic in RoF?


And taking the character aside, I don't really care if they just pretend to show us that Gohan retired from fighting, I'm okay with that... But it was stated that he was the strongest warrior in Earth by the time, above strongest Majin that both Goku and Vegeta couldn't land a hit... And then suddenly he loses all of his powers, regresses to his former Boo Arc beginning self (or even below than that) just because he's been slacking off?

That's sound to me just like an lazy ass explanation, for sure

[LightBing]

You know I was thinking about it these days and I will say: No

Why? Look at all the problems that brought it:

Super Saiyan was a iconic transformation in the franchise, having Gohan be all powerful just in "his base" felt kinda odd, not only for some fans but to the writers/directors too, that's why I imagine their confusion in change or not the fact that Gohan doesn't need Super Saiyan anymore and then they came up with this excuse that he's been a slacker and all his power was gone...

And to be honest we all know that Gohan isn't supposed to be "Mystic" in BoG if wasn't the fans complaining about he being a Super Saiyan again, and there's come RoF with Gohan having lost (?) his power up in 9 months, wow

It's really hard for we to have a good backstory explaining more facts about this magical power-up?

Is this "Mystic" form requires some kind of maintenance training or else it will disappear forever?

BoG confirmed that Ultimate Gohan could still turn SSJ, but what that would be? Just a change of pallete? It affect something or his power? Gohan probably was Mystic in RoF?


And taking the character aside, I don't really care if they just pretend to show us that Gohan retired from fighting, I'm okay with that... But it was stated that he was the strongest warrior in Earth by the time, above strongest Majin that both Goku and Vegeta couldn't land a hit... And then suddenly he loses all of his powers, regresses to his former Boo Arc beginning self (or even below than that) just because he's been slacking off?

That's sound to me just like an lazy ass explanation, for sure

The explanation is in the manga. Old Kaio said he brought out Gohan power to it's limits(past limits?), when Gohan asked how to access it's power "Like if you were going to go that Super Saiyan thing". Him turning SSJ isn't really mentioned to be impossible.

The errors by the staff and/or Mr. Toriyama certainly lack professionalism. But everything else that happened to Gohan, if he lost the form and the reasons, shouldn't cause confusion. Fans just made assumptions, taking them as facts, getting afterward angry and confused when said facts are challenged.

If nobody in the manga said the form was eternal and later Gohan loses it because he got lazy, isn't that a explanation in itself?

Compare the form to Super Saiyan we barely got any explanation about it, just Vegeta laying the ground for it out of the blue. A few chapters later and everybody has it and improved on it. With the originals details being, one needs to have a pure heart to obtain it and not much else.

With this said, Ultimate Gohan is a power gain without effort, just sit there and be the strongest ever. For that I dislike it, there was no emotion, barely anything worthwhile. I would have been much better if Kaioshin just let him train a month with the Z-Sword, plus some special god method.