Big Picture: another blasted list

Post by **Herms** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:46 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:I would like to see if you can include Dragon Ball GT and Dragon Ball Super as well.

Maybe one day, but I think this has worn me out for now. And it's been ages and ages since I've seen GT. There's a lot I'm really fuzzy on.

Speedster wrote:Excellent work - I disagree on a quite a few points especially in the Boo arc but not with the amount of tiers in general. The interesting thing is that we have 65 well distinct tiers. And that is the absolute minimum number of tiers. There would probably be more than 100 tiers if they were not meant to be about significant differences. Anyway even those 65 tiers are enough to show the power scaling in Dragonball.

Yeah, overall I'm probably more interested in this approach to ranking characters more so than in the specific results, if that makes sense. I think it has a lot of advantages over assigning specific BP numbers (but disadvantages too). I've gone with a minimalist approach because this list is supposed to serve as the basis for a picture, something where having too much blank space would be bad, so I've tried to avoid huge empty gaps between characters, but more tiers are definitely possible.

I didn't do this intentionally, but it's interesting that the final number of tiers breaks down roughly into thirds for the start of the series up to the 23rd TB (1-19), the Saiyan to Freeza arcs (20-43), and the Android to Boo arcs (44-65).

LowRyder2005 · Post by **LowRyder2005** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:00 pm

Terrific job.

I didn't read it in its entirety (I ask thee forgiveness), [EDIT: Sike! I read it!]
but I can picture in my mind some undertones you may want to consider - if you already didn't. Hope it helps:

Dabura vs. SSJ or SSJ2 Gohan?
I personally felt sated when someone pointed out that - after Kibith was revived, in-between Dabura's death and SSJ3 Goku vs. Fat Buu - East Kai told him something referring to the enormous display of strenght of Gohan that he (Kibith) had missed. Since he had seen Gohan powering up to SSJ2, the most obvious implication - to me, at least and despite the art blatantly suggesting the contrary - is therefore that Gohan was fighting at SSJ2 against Dabura because he was at a level beyond what he had shown to everyone during the Tenkaichi Budokai.

Earthlings vs. Freeza
Really tricky, but we got a glimpse in the Yo! Special (dunno if you'd want to include that: is it in continuity with the anime? Or more manga-oriented? After all, in the anime every single earthling seems far above Freeza in the Buu saga); everyone was really eager to fight Abo & Kado, who were reportedly around Freeza's level (most likely, his first form, rather doubtful for a weak warrior like Tarble to know anything beyond that). Everyone, Yamcha and Krillin included, participates in the radish-picking contest. So, I'd deontologically and personally put every earthling from Android-Saga onwards at least in-between Freeza's first and second form.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:14 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote: Dabura vs. SSJ or SSJ2 Gohan?
I personally felt sated when someone pointed out that - after Kibith was revived, in-between Dabura's death and SSJ3 Goku vs. Fat Buu - East Kai told him something referring to the enormous display of strenght of Gohan that he (Kibith) had missed. Since he had seen Gohan powering up to SSJ2, the most obvious implication - to me, at least and despite the art blatantly suggesting the contrary - is therefore that Gohan was fighting at SSJ2 against Dabura because he was at a level beyond what he had shown to everyone during the Tenkaichi Budokai.

I go with 2 stances
1) Toriyama doesn't want Gohan to be SS2 anymore, but SS Gohan is still implied to be much stronger than he was at the 25th, so SS Gohan is also much stronger than SS2 Gohan's only appearance in the Buu Arc and thus on par with Super Perfect Cell and since Dabra is initially thought about as strong as Cell and later much stronger this makes somewhat sense in a very non-sensical way. In any case you could say Gohan is a Super Saiyan, that is a saiyan that has the power of a Super Saiyan 2.

2) Toriyama doesn't want Gohan to be SS2 anymore, this choice was made after the initial comment about Dabra being about as strong as Cell, maybe as he was writing the chapter(in which Gohan and Dabra fight). Gohan and Dabra are thus nerfed to some unknown level and this is thought to be Gohan's full power, while Gohan being SS2 at the 25th is completely ignored. Gohan doesn't necessarily have to be weaker than his SS state from the Cell Games, all that matters is that he's weaker than his SS2 from the Cell Games and all the statements line up.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:02 pm

I don't really agree with Mr. Buu being in the same tier as SS2 Vegeta. You say that Vegeta did more damage to Buu, but it seemed clear that he only managed this because Buu wasn't trying at first (hence why he's surprised when his legs get blown off, and then smiles). By contrast, he was angry from the outset when dealing with Mr. Buu (who also destroyed half his body with one blast, even though that was quickly fired with one hand rather than charged and thrown with two like Vegeta's). I think that the average schlub reading the manga would see Mr. Buu as noticeably more powerful, since he's presented as actually being able to have a fight with Pure Buu where both land hits and rebound without the use of regeneration, while Vegeta was pretty much down for the count after the initial surprise. Similarly, while the statement during fatty's split would imply Pure Evil Buu is weaker than Pure Buu (then again, we don't know how strong fatty was when he split), actually comparing their fights with the same character would imply the opposite.

This is an awesome idea, by the way.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:21 pm

Cetra wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote: Cell was suppressed when Vegeta was transforming, so Trunks' shock doesn't indicate that SS Vegeta is stronger than full-power 2nd form Cell, only Cell's suppressed state.
Even 16 says Vegeta is still stronger. Obviously suppressed Cell (and I am talking about the Perfect form is who I am talking about in case your post was meant for me.

What are you talking about? I am talking about 2nd form Cell, not Perfect form Cell.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:05 am

So, in order to fix the oddity of Giran being on a tier all his own for no particular reason, I juggled things around a bit. I moved DB Hunt Goku and various others up to Giran’s tier, and did various other adjustments, so here’s the new set-up (after tier 6 it’s all the same):

Spoiler:

And here’s the rough draft visual I threw together, which ended up with several more changes. The most obvious thing is I that I tried to indicate “half tiers” and “quarter tiers” by having some characters only partially overlap…which resulted in the bottom tiers becoming quite a jumble:

Spoiler:

When it comes to the lower tiers, I’m putting a lot of faith into people’s abilities to dodge things. So Mister Satan probably couldn’t take a shotgun blast, but I’ve got him ranks high above Farmer with Shotgun on the logic that if the two were to fight, Satan would be able to disarm the farmer without getting shot. Same for the Rabbit Gang thugs, Mean Lunch, etc…not to mention kid Chi-Chi and her dinosaur-killing boomerang and laser.

I am thinking maybe I was too harsh on Gotenks and that I should rearrange things. Reviewing things, when base Gotenks first forms, he gets beat up by Fat Boo. Then when SS Gotenks forms, he comically runs out of fusion time before facing Boo, so for all we know he wouldn’t have lost had they fought. Factor in Goku’s assumption that Gotenks (without SS3 but presumably with SS) would be enough to beat Fat Boo, but ignore his claim at some points that Gotenks would be powerful enough to easily win (on the grounds that he’s either overestimating Gotenks, assuming that Gotenks will get stronger through training, or just talking big to reassure others and himself)…so we end up with the idea that pre-training SS Gotenks is the same tier as Fat Boo.

Then after training, Trunks claims base Gotenks will now be equal to Boo. At this point Boo has turned from Fat into Evil Boo, but Trunks only has experience fighting Fat Boo, so if we twist a little we could say Trunks’ estimate is true, in the sense that base Gotenks is now equal to Fat Boo. If we stick with the idea that there’s a minimum distance of one tier between SS transformations, we could end up with something like this:

57: Majin Vegeta, SS2 Goku, SS2 Gohan (Cell Games), Super Perfect Cell, Mister Boo
58: Skinny Boo, base Gotenks (pre-training)
59: Fat Boo, SS Gotenks (pre-training), base Gotenks (post-training)
60: SS3 Goku, Pure Boo, SS Gotenks (post-training)
61: SS2 Gotenks
62: Evil Boo, SS3 Gotenks
63: Ultimate Gohan
64: Gohan-Boo, Gotenks-Boo
65: Empty space
66: Super Vegetto

Probably makes no sense in terms of multipliers, but again, the point of this is to not have to bother with those. I’m still annoyed at having an entire tier reserved for SS2 Gotenks, a form who only technically puts in an appearance. I could get rid of it for aesthetic reasons if nothing else, unless there’s any characters who are clearly stronger than SS Gotenks but weaker than SS3 Gotenks…or at least characters I could claim are. Including the movies would be helpful here. There’s also Piccolo-Boo and South Kaioshin-Boo (the buff one) who I’ve glossed over. I guess Piccolo-Boo would be the same tier as Evil Boo (stronger, but not by much to make a difference against Gohan), and the buff one might be the same way (his ki is supposed to raise in comparison to Evil Boo, but maybe not by that much).

I totally forgot to include Trunks: the Story. Well, first off I’ll just consider the future 17 and 18 to be exactly as strong as their present day counterparts (using the “Trunks never knew their full power” excuse), which isn’t typically what I believe, but for this image it’d be really pointless and potentially confusing to bother including two separate 17s and 18s. Future Gohan, meanwhile…Bulma says Trunks is “not that much” different than Gohan when he died, so he should be the same tier as SS Trunks. Which is already I really crowded spot, darn it. 14 year old Trunks:…eh, who cares?

So, issues people have raised:

Grandpa Gohan vs. Oozaru Goku

I have them in the same tier, even though Gohan got killed by Oozaru Goku. I personally think this is fine because I’m only ranking the Gohan who fights Goku at Uranai Baba (he might have trained more and grown stronger after death), and also because even fights between equals don’t automatically end in draws. So Gohan and Oozaru Goku being in the same tier doesn’t go against him Gohan losing to Oozaru Goku. And also, for the image itself I ultimately decided that for both Oozaru Goku and Gohan it wasn’t worth the trouble of depicting them twice. So in the image the only Oozaru Goku will be up there with post-Super God Water Goku, way above Gohan.

Post-RoSaT SS Vegeta vs. 2nd Form Cell

Ultimately I’ve decided to leave Vegeta’s regular SS form from this point off the image, but point well taken that Cell wasn’t using his full power at the start of the fight. If nothing else, I’ve decided to keep the tier between 2nd form Cell and Super Vegeta as a home for Grade III Trunks (who I’ve arbitrarily decided is overall weaker than his Grade II form but still way stronger than 2nd form Cell). This tier could also be where Perfect Cell is at when he starts fighting Vegeta (the point where 16 notes that he’s improved a lot but is still inferior to Vegeta).

Buff Roshi vs. Moon
I’ve long gone with the theory that his buff form is a transformation similar to SS Grade III: is makes his power go through the roof, but is too slow to be useful in a real fight. That’s why (I say) in the main series we only see him use it to fire super-powerful blasts at large, immobile targets (then in RF he’s finally gotten the speed problem fixed and that’s why he’s now suddenly strong enough to go up against Freeza goons). Long story short, I don’t want to take his moon destroying antics into account when ranking him, since I’m trying to focus on ability in a 1-on-1 fight over raw destructive power. So I’ve got Yajirobe over 21st TB Jackie Chun, even though I doubt Yajirobe could destroy the moon. Although that said, I think it’s probably best to leave his buff form off the chart, but in terms of raw power it does seem fitting to place it at 21st TB Oozaru Goku up above the other pre-Z characters.

Grandpa Gohan vs Tao Pai Pai
On the list I’ve got them on the same tier, but for the image I did put Gohan a little higher than, though the two still overlap.

Gohan vs Dabra
I really am sorely tempted to just go with the “he really was SS2 against Dabra, regardless of sparks” idea. Overall it seems simpler, but I’m still hesitant to disregard the visuals so much.

Earthlings vs Freeza
I’m focusing on manga characters, but I am open to sources from outside the manga (including anime, guide book stuff, etc) if I think it’s helpful. With the JSAT special and the Earthlings seeming eager to fight an opponent that’s supposed to be on par with Freeza, it’s interesting but I don’t think solid enough to be a deal breaker. If any of the Earthlings were actually shown fighting Abo and Kado, that would be one thing. For that matter, whether or not Abo and Kado are supposed to be equal to 100% full power Freeza or what is another can of worms. Still, I do go back and forth on where I think it’s appropriate to stick the Earthlings. They actually ended up lower down in the rough draft image than on my list, for some reason. I guess I do get hung up on Freeza as a big arbitrary line I don’t feel like they can cross.

Mister Boo vs SS2 Vegeta
One thing is that I’ve got Mister Boo on the same tier as Majin Vegeta, but if we go on the assumption that Vegeta drops down to his pre-Majin power after being brought back by Enma, then he’ll actually be a tier below Mister Boo when the two face Pure Boo. Personally, I’ve tended to go with the idea that Vegeta doesn’t actually get any weaker once he stops being Majin Vegeta (it’s never explicitly said he’s weaker, and it’s not hard to imagine that once Babidi drew out his dormant power it just stayed out)…but for this chart I’ll go with the idea that he gets weaker, simply as an excuse to include both Majin Vegeta and a picture of regular SS2 Vegeta from the Pure Boo fight.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:21 am

I think just not including SS2/base Gotenks would be preferable, as their power is cryptic (even when factoring in multipliers, which are implied several times not to apply normally for him) and neither form does anything of note. Unlike SS Gotenks and SS3 Gotenks, how strong they are (other than "base Gotenks is weaker than Fat Buu") isn't relevant to the story.

Herms wrote: Mister Boo vs SS2 Vegeta
One thing is that I’ve got Mister Boo on the same tier as Majin Vegeta, but if we go on the assumption that Vegeta drops down to his pre-Majin power after being brought back by Enma, then he’ll actually be a tier below Mister Boo when the two face Pure Boo. Personally, I’ve tended to go with the idea that Vegeta doesn’t actually get any weaker once he stops being Majin Vegeta (it’s never explicitly said he’s weaker, and it’s not hard to imagine that once Babidi drew out his dormant power it just stayed out)…but for this chart I’ll go with the idea that he gets weaker, simply as an excuse to include both Majin Vegeta and a picture of regular SS2 Vegeta from the Pure Boo fight.

The problem is that I don't think there's actually a shred of evidence anywhere that supports such an assumption. Babidi mentions the power-up separately from the mind control, no one else has ever lost power just from dying, Goku still thinks he can do the dance fusion with Vegeta, and no one notes a power drop for him (which would have been appropriate at a couple points). The story still seems to treat him as equally powerful as he was when he fought Goku. Babidi's quote in particular seems to make it clear that there's no link between his mind control (which Vegeta immediately ignored anyway...) and the power-up he gives, which would point towards it working like pretty much every other hidden-power-unlocking upgrade that everyone gets.

Chapter: 456 (DBZ 262), P4.3
Context: as Babidi takes control of Vegeta
Babidi: “While I’m at it, I’ll draw out his hidden power to beyond [his? its?] limits!”

LowRyder2005 · Post by **LowRyder2005** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:15 am

How's it goin'? I found the rough draft pretty captivating, I'm honestly curious about how it will turn out in the end.

Post by **Herms** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:29 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:How's it goin'? I found the rough draft pretty captivating, I'm honestly curious about how it will turn out in the end.

I've been organizing the art side of things over in this thread in the Fan Works section. Currently 66 characters have been drawn by various contributors. Tons and tons of great contributions. I'm really very pleased.

Post by **Herms** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:24 am

The art side of this project is still plugging along, currently up to 84 characters drawn.

So, once again I've got this "nicer to Gotenks" version of the higher Boo arc tiers:

Spoiler:

For the image, I don't want to bother including two separate images for pre and post-training Gotenks, I also don't particularly feel like including base Gotenks at all, and I definitely don't want to bother with SS2 Gotenks, so in practical terms the only difference between this setup and what I have in the rough-draft is where SS Gotenks and SS3 Goku are in relation to each other. I could potentially change my mind at the last moment and stick them together, we'll see.

Now, for the image I'm pretty committed to having Gohan-Boo as the strongest form of Boo, Ultimate Gohan up above SS3 Goku, etc, but I'm well aware there are other interpretations, especially if you want to factor in the anime. So I thought I might as well apply this tier approach to a version of things with Pure Boo on top, just to see how it turns out.

Right, so starting there, Pure Boo will be higher up than all the other Boo forms. I could potentially put him in the same tier as the Gohan/Gotenks-absorbed forms, on the idea that he's stronger but still in the same overall tier, but the anime has Goku specifically say that Pure Boo is way stronger than all the previous forms, so I'll put him a tier above. Still below Vegetto though, and I'll keep the "empty space" tier as a buffer between him and everyone else. Then the Gohan and Gotenks forms stay together in the same tier (Gohan-Boo's stronger, but not enough to warrant a separate tier, I say). Ultimate Gohan should likewise stay a tier below those two forms, and a tier above regular Evil Boo. SS3 Gotenks also stays together with Evil Boo. I think I'm stuck yet again with a tier that only consists of SS2 Gotenks...then below that, SS Gotenks (post-training) and Fat Boo. Ignoring Gotenks' base form and his pre-training SS form (I'm going with the "weaker Gotenks" model for this), below that should be Skinny Boo, and below that I'm obstinately continuing to regard Majin Vegeta and Mister Boo as about on par. So...

Spoiler:

Oh yeah, I guess I glossed over the issue of where to place SS3 Goku. We could assume he's on par with Pure Boo, though at a pinch he might be a tier or two below. Still, if we stick with the idea that Pure Boo is a tier above Gohan-Boo, then SS3 Goku would have to at least be as strong as Ultimate Gohan, probably much stronger, unless Pure Boo is just completely toying with him during their fight. This does fit with how DBZ movie 13 portrays SS3 Goku as much more powerful than Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks, if nothing else. This also makes the gap between SS2 and SS3 Goku pretty big, but that's probably unavoidable under any "Pure Boo is strongest" setup. I could remove a few tiers by placing Skinny Boo in the same tier as Majin Vegeta (or with Fat Boo, using the "weaker, but not that much weaker" excuse), and just ignoring SS2 Gotenks. Anyway, I suppose I could use all this for an alternate "anime version" of the image. Maybe.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:29 am

I've got a fun idea... How about just drawing SS3 Goku and Pure Boo twice, and putting them in two different tiers? It seems like the only way to be all-encompassing and include both views on how they rank. It wouldn't make all that much sense, but that's Toei's fault, not ours. Those two are the only ones that the anime randomly elevated to such absurd heights, so nobody else would have to be changed or moved. I'd gladly volunteer to do the extra drawing of them if that helps.

I also agree with the idea of just not including base Gotenks at all. His power in that form is the center of a lot of speculation and debate with nothing really concrete to go by, and he never accomplished anything with it anyway, so there's nothing to be gained or lost from it.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:19 pm

@herms

Do you think Mr boo must be a higher tier than majin vegeta , as he performed much better than him vs kid boo.
Kid boo higher than gohan boo does seem weird.
I also liked the idea of not including SS2 gotenks at all

LowRyder2005 · Post by **LowRyder2005** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:05 am

Well, Goku's words about Kid Buu in the anime are apparently contradicted by multiple sources anyway, though. First off, an anime-related guidebook, Dragon Ball: Extreme Battle Collection. It states, alongside a pic of the SSJ3 Goku vs. Buutenks filler bit, that "even Super Saiyan 3 Goku is no match for Buu". Hence, the rationale is for Buutenks to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku (and Kid Buu, fitting in with the statement of Buutenks about being the strongest Majin ever).
The same guidebook later (or before) states that Gohan has "fantastic power surpassing even Super Saiyan 3". Take that as you will. Anyway, even the anime interpretation of Goku and Kid/Pure being stronger than everyone is hazy and possibly contradicted by officially licensed sources.

Moreover, I remember another scan from a databook - can't remember the name, though - stating explicitly that Kid Buu became more powerful by absorbing the South Kaioshin (in a way that put every original ambiguity to rest). While not clearing out the debate of Buu Arc anime Gohan vs. Goku, it still puts Kid Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku below Buff Buu.

A way to make everything have some sense, as far as I'm concerned, is to take Goku's words as a hyperbole of sorts. Goku says Kid Buu's speed and power on a level beyond any other Buu: reasonably, it could refer to his fighting style and to the fact that Buu attacks relentlessly, insanely.
Never minding that, from a strictly narrative point-of-view the whole plot and the characters' train of thought get wrecked the moment you put Kid Buu above Buutenks: I mean, Goku joining bodies forever with his son, for starters, would lose any possible logic and principle (a.k.a. Goku would want to merge forever with his son for the heck of it). And what about gambling with his strenght while thinking about merging with Mr. Satan or Dende? I suppose that even Toriyama, as an author, would obviously go "no way" and stating that Goku never stood a chance against Buutenks and Buuhan if this scenario was presented to him.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:30 pm

Kaboom wrote:I've got a fun idea... How about just drawing SS3 Goku and Pure Boo twice, and putting them in two different tiers? It seems like the only way to be all-encompassing and include both views on how they rank. It wouldn't make all that much sense, but that's Toei's fault, not ours. Those two are the only ones that the anime randomly elevated to such absurd heights, so nobody else would have to be changed or moved. I'd gladly volunteer to do the extra drawing of them if that helps.

I've thought up doing something along those lines, to visually indicate the controversy over that and other Boo arc stuff. I think though I'd prefer to make the image internally consistent, even if it's an interpretation not everyone will agree with. I'm also not sure how we could visually indicate that the stronger versions of SS3 Goku/Pure Boo are specifically the anime versions. Unless they just hold signs saying "anime" or something. Actually, maybe that's not a bad idea.

LowRyder2005 wrote:Well, Goku's words about Kid Buu in the anime are apparently contradicted by multiple sources anyway, though.

Yeah, in fact, while I keep referring to the "Pure Boo is strongest" scenario as the "anime version", the anime only adds in a few lines saying Pure Boo is stronger, and doesn't actually change or remove the things from that manga that make people think he isn't strongest. So the anime doesn't necessarily offer a single internally consistent view on this. That said, I also think there are some things in the manga that can be used to support Pure Boo being strongest. This whole issue got to be such a big controversy precisely because there's evidence for both sides, although overall I think there's far fewer contradictions with the "Gohan-Boo is strongest" scenario. Well anyway, I don't want to get too far down this rabbit hole. Maybe one day I'll do some definitive break-down of this whole debate, but not now.

Also...I kind of skipped over the 28th TB. Sort of on purpose. First off, if we stick only to the manga, it's hard to say much of anything. The regular tournament contestants (Captain Chicken, Kirano, etc) should all be in the 3-5 range along with the other ordinary Earth martial artists, but there's already tons of characters in that range, so it might be hard to squeeze them in. Nobody goes Super Saiyan, and I'm trying not to cover base Saiyans after the Freeza arc. Pan and Oob are pretty much crapshoots, if we're only going by the manga. We could see how strong they are in GT and backtrack from there, but GT is a can of worms I don't want to get into now. Plus, now we've got Super to worry about. I'm personally rather fond of the "10 years later" portion at the end of the manga and never like it when people gloss over it, but I think I'm stuck doing that here.

LowRyder2005 · Post by **LowRyder2005** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:59 pm

Herms wrote:
Kaboom wrote:I've got a fun idea... How about just drawing SS3 Goku and Pure Boo twice, and putting them in two different tiers? It seems like the only way to be all-encompassing and include both views on how they rank. It wouldn't make all that much sense, but that's Toei's fault, not ours. Those two are the only ones that the anime randomly elevated to such absurd heights, so nobody else would have to be changed or moved. I'd gladly volunteer to do the extra drawing of them if that helps.
I've thought up doing something along those lines, to visually indicate the controversy over that and other Boo arc stuff. I think though I'd prefer to make the image internally consistent, even if it's an interpretation not everyone will agree with. I'm also not sure how we could visually indicate that the stronger versions of SS3 Goku/Pure Boo are specifically the anime versions. Unless they just hold signs saying "anime" or something. Actually, maybe that's not a bad idea.

LowRyder2005 wrote:Well, Goku's words about Kid Buu in the anime are apparently contradicted by multiple sources anyway, though.
Yeah, in fact, while I keep referring to the "Pure Boo is strongest" scenario as the "anime version", the anime only adds in a few lines saying Pure Boo is stronger, and doesn't actually change or remove the things from that manga that make people think he isn't strongest. So the anime doesn't necessarily offer a single internally consistent view on this. That said, I also think there are some things in the manga that can be used to support Pure Boo being strongest. This whole issue got to be such a big controversy precisely because there's evidence for both sides, although overall I think there's far fewer contradictions with the "Gohan-Boo is strongest" scenario. Well anyway, I don't want to get too far down this rabbit hole. Maybe one day I'll do some definitive break-down of this whole debate, but not now.

Also...I kind of skipped over the 28th TB. Sort of on purpose. First off, if we stick only to the manga, it's hard to say much of anything. The regular tournament contestants (Captain Chicken, Kirano, etc) should all be in the 3-5 range along with the other ordinary Earth martial artists, but there's already tons of characters in that range, so it might be hard to squeeze them in. Nobody goes Super Saiyan, and I'm trying not to cover base Saiyans after the Freeza arc. Pan and Oob are pretty much crapshoots, if we're only going by the manga. We could see how strong they are in GT and backtrack from there, but GT is a can of worms I don't want to get into now. Plus, now we've got Super to worry about. I'm personally rather fond of the "10 years later" portion at the end of the manga and never like it when people gloss over it, but I think I'm stuck doing that here.

Ahah, yes, I feel ya there.

I've had my fair share of discussions and it usually boils down to what people want to see and/or what their favorite character is.
Although the whole the supporters of the Buuhan theory basically do not exist. Contradictingly, if anything: because from the little bit of Kid Buu being stronger than everyone else, alas the phrase on the Kai's planet, the explicit suggestion is that everything we've seen so far could be a lie. Therefore: if by charging up his Super Saiyan 3, Goku could beat someone stronger than Buuhan, Goku didn't need Potaras. Secondly, Goku lied about his inability to beat Super Buu while inside him, not even mentioning again the drama nonsense and Goku's desperation while searching for a fusee candidate and fighting Buutenks. Everything could as well be regarded as gigantic plotholes, at least in the sense that the anime never acknowledges these multiple issues in the matter of narrative cohesion by adding something like Goku explaining his actions with: "I lied here and wasn't really in trouble here for X and Y".

All in all, TOEI lost themselves in the manga or probably didn't understand the plot properly, which is much more straightforward at least on paper (pardon my wordplay): Gotenks is at least "intended" by everyone to be stronger than Goku, Fat Buu and Kid Buu to sum it up are on at least very similar tiers (both could be beaten by SSJ3 Goku by going all out, and while Goku has more trouble handling the little one, there's still the issue of his body being unable to "process" Super Saiyan 3; all the while, it seemed like Fat Buu was actually becoming a challenge the more they fought), Gohan starts weak but probably surpasses his father with the Z-sword training, comparing their strenght while handling the sword itself - but not enough to take on Super Buu, however, as per Goku's estimations, and his power skyrockets when he gets a form "surpassing Super Saiyan 3". The whole process of removing the Fat Buu's pod is justified by Goku and Vegeta's being outmatched against the normal Super Buu and that's it, basically.

But I digress, the mother of all debates is whether Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu or vice versa, a conduit for the much bigger and hysterical issue of Gohan vs. Goku. That's because in the manga you can create a perfectly working framework of Kid Buu and Goku being above everyone minus Buu's "upgraded" forms and Vegito by adding some preconditions here and there. Academically, of course, or rather, Occham's Razor at hand, that's not exactly the preferable approach to problem-solving. Moreover, it's mostly because of the "Goku is the main character" argument and Goku's popolarity compared to Gohan's.

If you want my two cents, given how much you are influential within the fanbase (I can't remember a single person who wouldn't quote your translation work) you may be as well be setting the bar for future fanbase discussions with this very work. Then again, I strongly believe that the right course of action is to respect the original manga indications of Super Buu, Gotenks and Gohan surpassing Goku - personally? I'd put pre-ROSAT SSJ Gotenks somewhere below SSJ3 Goku, Fat Buu and Majin Vegeta, and his post-ROSAT SSJ self above them - and, at least until there is an official retraction. The theory of Goku and Kid Buu - limiting ourself to the manga, but the anime could be included - being the strongest is not unlike a theory where I say "Piccolo is the strongest, but wanted to give the others a chance". While you remove the contradictions with... well, those technically arbitrary preconditions, it creates an incredible amount of character-induced stupidity for everyone (way beyond the reasonable amount in any given narrative) and it's a theory for the sake of a theory.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:17 pm

Herms wrote:I'm also not sure how we could visually indicate that the stronger versions of SS3 Goku/Pure Boo are specifically the anime versions. Unless they just hold signs saying "anime" or something. Actually, maybe that's not a bad idea.

Maybe they could be wearing badges with Toei's Puss in Boots logo on them.

Saiga · Post by **Saiga** » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:43 am

I was thinking one drawn in anime style and another in manga style, but I think going for the "Pure Boo is strongest" approach is just a bad idea to begin with. Same with including the characters who we don't actually know where they fit, like base Gotenks. I feel like it's got a lot of potential to cause headaches and controversy with how easily misinformation spreads, and how big an influence you are Herms.

This whole issue got to be such a big controversy precisely because there's evidence for both sides,

I don't think that's really true. A lot of controversies in the fandom are that way because of misinformation or fan ideas with no grounding at all. As an example, Broli's strength receives some claims that don't seem to be based on anything in particular.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:46 am

I also think that putting Pure Buu/Goku up there would be a bad idea, for whatever it's worth. Even if it was intended as a wink at the anime exclusively, I feel that, given your influence, it would just result in a spread of misinformation; in the manga "continuity" it's very clear that Evil Boo in all of his forms is stronger than Pure Buu, otherwise the story ceases to function as a coherent narrative on many levels.

But even ignoring that, as has already been noted, the anime doesn't really portray Pure Buu as stronger than Gohan-Buu. It just adds two lines near the very end of the series which seem to contradict the series of events that led to this point. If anything, some of the filler it adds (like Pure Buu actually having trouble with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, Mr. Buu putting up a better fight, and Gotenks-Buu taking dozens of attacks from SS3 Goku while off-guard and not being fazed) just further supports Pure Buu being one of the weaker Buus. At most you could argue that the strength hierarchy is vague in the anime... which it really isn't in the manga.

Speedster · Post by **Speedster** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:52 pm

Not a fan of guidebooks myself at all but from where is this (assuming is legit)?

Spoiler:

Kid Buu is flat out stated to be the strongest form of Buu in this scan. He was anyway stated as such in the anime and I also note that on the left bottom corner of this page it says DRAGON BOOK Z Vol.7. (and as we all know Z clearly refers to the anime)

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:38 pm

Speedster wrote:Not a fan of guidebooks myself at all but from where is this (assuming is legit)?

Kid Buu is flat out stated to be the strongest form of Buu in this scan. He was anyway stated as such in the anime and I also note that on the left bottom corner of this page it says DRAGON BOOK Z Vol.7. (and as we all know Z clearly refers to the anime)

So wouldn't that apply only to the anime?

Kanzenshuu

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