Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
rereboy wrote:
She's 18 or 17 (aka basically adult) and she's one of the strongest humans, so that makes no sense. It's about bender. Even the fight between gohan and reccome doesn't get mentioned as much as this one as being brutal and gohan was 5 years old and got his neck broken.
That fight is actually the first thing that came to mind when I saw the OP.
But this fight is just as bad. That head stomp scene...
Master, the batteries inside your Wii Remote are nearly depleted.
Master, there is a 98% chance that the floor is beneath you.
DoomieDoomie911 wrote:
That, plus the fact that she's an ordinary person. If it had been a female Saiyan, or someone who was on par with some of the main characters, nobody would be as bothered by it. I don't think it's as much a male vs. female thing as it is a super strong person vs. ordinary person thing. It's a combination of the brutality of the fight and the fact that she wasn't nearly as strong as the other characters.
She's a professional fighter who is somewhere in the top 20 or top 30 strongest human fighters in Dragon Ball. She's anything but ordinary. And her performance was also far from helpless, she would have killed her opponent if his body wasn't weird.
Like I said above, if it was merely about power, then Yamcha getting beat up would always be more brutal than Goku or another stronger fighter getting beat up. And it's not.
But, again, she's not nearly as strong as the other characters. You can't compare her to characters like Gohan, Piccolo, or Tenshinhan. I really don't even think she's as strong as Yamcha. And yes, anyone, male or female, being beaten like she was would be hard to watch. Violence is violence.
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
DoomieDoomie911 wrote:But you can't say that she's on the same level as many of the main characters. She's definitely stronger than your average person, but she's no Gokū, Gohan, or Piccolo. I would probably say (and I might be totally wrong on this) that she's somewhere between Mr. Satan and Yamcha in terms of strength.
I would agree, but I think that's kinda like saying Britain is somewhere in between Hawaii and Japan.
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DoomieDoomie911 wrote:But you can't say that she's on the same level as many of the main characters. She's definitely stronger than your average person, but she's no Gokū, Gohan, or Piccolo. I would probably say (and I might be totally wrong on this) that she's somewhere between Mr. Satan and Yamcha in terms of strength.
I would agree, but I think that's kinda like saying Britain is somewhere in between Hawaii and Japan.
How so? Do you really think she's stronger than Yamcha?
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
No, not at all. I'm saying that the gap between Satan and Yamucha is so great that saying a character is in between them is somewhat useless as a point of comparison.
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LuckyCat wrote:It's a brutal waste of potential. Here we're shown some pretty dramatic images, yet neither Gohan or Videl give any payback to Soppovich (or even Babidi). This whole scene is gratuitous violence for the sake of gratuitous violence. It could be completely removed and nothing would be lost from the story.
My thoughts exactly. Toriyama's storytelling was so erratic during this part of the story that it's hard to make sense of what he was trying to accomplish.
LuckyCat wrote:It's a brutal waste of potential. Here we're shown some pretty dramatic images, yet neither Gohan or Videl give any payback to Soppovich (or even Babidi). This whole scene is gratuitous violence for the sake of gratuitous violence. It could be completely removed and nothing would be lost from the story.
I agree with this. The whole thing was never really revisited, and nothing really ever came of it. A complete waste of time.
Gaffer Tape wrote:No, not at all. I'm saying that the gap between Satan and Yamucha is so great that saying a character is in between them is somewhat useless as a point of comparison.
Okay.
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
DoomieDoomie911 wrote:
That, plus the fact that she's an ordinary person. If it had been a female Saiyan, or someone who was on par with some of the main characters, nobody would be as bothered by it. I don't think it's as much a male vs. female thing as it is a super strong person vs. ordinary person thing. It's a combination of the brutality of the fight and the fact that she wasn't nearly as strong as the other characters.
She's a professional fighter who is somewhere in the top 20 or top 30 strongest human fighters in Dragon Ball. She's anything but ordinary. And her performance was also far from helpless, she would have killed her opponent if his body wasn't weird.
Like I said above, if it was merely about power, then Yamcha getting beat up would always be more brutal than Goku or another stronger fighter getting beat up. And it's not.
But, again, she's not nearly as strong as the other characters. You can't compare her to characters like Gohan, Piccolo, or Tenshinhan. I really don't even think she's as strong as Yamcha. And yes, anyone, male or female, being beaten like she was would be hard to watch. Violence is violence.
So what? Is any of Yamcha's beatings more brutal than goku's beatings just because he is weaker than Goku?
As long as they are professional fighters, what matters is how strong and how helpless they are agaisnt their opponent (not anyone else) and how badly they get hurt.
Was Videl that helpless agaisnt her opponent? No, she could fight him and almost killed him. Was he that much stronger than her? Not really. Was she badly hurt? Yes, but much less than some of the Injuries we have seen in the series, including ones in children.
There really isn't any reason for that fight to be the one, or one of the, most mentioned in regards to brutality besides the fact that Videl is a girl.
rereboy wrote:So what? Is any of Yamcha's beatings more brutal than goku's beatings just because he is weaker than Goku?
As long as they are professional fighters, what matters is how strong and how helpless they are agaisnt their opponent (not anyone else) and how badly they get hurt.
Was Videl that helpless agaisnt her opponent? No, she could fight him and almost killed him. Was he that much stronger than her? Not really. Was she badly hurt? Yes, but much less than some of the Injuries we have seen in the series, including ones in children.
There really isn't any reason for that fight to be the one, or one of the, most mentioned in regards to brutality besides the fact that Videl is a girl.
That's not the point I was getting across... Videl is a powerful fighter but only on a realistic setting. Her strength is very much ordinary compared to even the early parts of the series.
I mean, the reason she lost in the first place is because her stamina gave out on her.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
I'm surprised people don't see how a huge hulking guy punching a small girl in the stomach and face numerous times, and then stomping on her face while she can't fight back isn't brutal.
That being said, I don't understand why the announcer didn't stop the match? She was clearly defeated towards the end of it. The judges should have declared Spopovich the winner by default. It really goes to prove the tournaments have no rules against excessive force.
The fight is kinda brutal given the context of it, but it's not really a standout moment in terms of violence in the franchise, especially if we're talking about the manga strictly. I think the King Piccolo arc and the Namek arc were where the majority of the most brutal fights took place.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
rereboy wrote:So what? Is any of Yamcha's beatings more brutal than goku's beatings just because he is weaker than Goku?
As long as they are professional fighters, what matters is how strong and how helpless they are agaisnt their opponent (not anyone else) and how badly they get hurt.
Was Videl that helpless agaisnt her opponent? No, she could fight him and almost killed him. Was he that much stronger than her? Not really. Was she badly hurt? Yes, but much less than some of the Injuries we have seen in the series, including ones in children.
There really isn't any reason for that fight to be the one, or one of the, most mentioned in regards to brutality besides the fact that Videl is a girl.
That's not the point I was getting across... Videl is a powerful fighter but only on a realistic setting. Her strength is very much ordinary compared to even the early parts of the series.
I mean, the reason she lost in the first place is because her stamina gave out on her.
And that would be relevant if she was fighting someone like Goku. She wasn't.
She was fighting someone who wasn't much stronger than her, that she would have killed if he hadn't a weird body, regarding who she wasn't at all powerless, and, despite ending up badly injuried, her injuries pale in comparison to the injuries we saw in other fights.
B wrote:A part of why the fight is brutal is because Spopovitch is torturing her; he wouldn't have let her forfeit if she had tried and was enjoying it.
Obviously on a pure carnage level, it's not as bad as other fights.
I agre that the fight is brutal due to how it extended itself but that also pales in comparison to freeza torturing nail or freeza torturing Vegeta or Vegeta torturing goku in the saiyan saga.
Both of those were no-hold-barred fights to death, a part of the bigger fight. Tournament was a sport event with clear rules that you could take your kids to. Imagine that you are watching wrestling and suddenly realise that one of the fighters beats unconscious opponent, while carefully managing not to break any rules.
For me that was the shock value- when it's war one must prepare of the worst, but nobody goes for tournament with spectators, media and shiny prizes expecting to be beaten to death.
Last edited by Eire on Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Per aspera ad astra, man!
Women belong in the kitchen.
Men belong in the kitchen.
Everyone belongs in the kitchen, the kitchen has food
Eire wrote:Both of those were no-hold-barred fights to death, a part of the bigger war. Tournament was a sport event with clear rules that you could take your kids to. Imagine that you are watching wrestling and suddenly realise that one of the fighters beats unconscious opponent, while carefully managing not to break any rules.
Yeah, this too...
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
Was Videl that helpless agaisnt her opponent? No, she could fight him and almost killed him. Was he that much stronger than her? Not really. Was she badly hurt? Yes, but much less than some of the Injuries we have seen in the series, including ones in children.
That's not the impression I got. He didn't seem fazed by her offense at all. Sure, he didn't tank her attacks, but she did no lasting or big damage to him. She didn't almost kill him. Yes, she would've killed him if he was normal, but the neck break didn't hurt him at all.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Happiness is climate, not weather.
Our bias makes it look more brutal because we instinctively associate girl/women with being more helpless (physically) and being more peaceful (physically).
If it was Yamcha instead of Videl, or even a random male fighter, it would be exactly the same but nobody would think it was that special.
100% agree. If it was Yamcha, people would just be like "what a scrub getting his ass kicked by the weakest henchmen of the arc."
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
None of Yamcha's defeats were that bloody. The Saibaman blew up on him yet we just saw his body in tact on the ground. Dr. Gero punched through his chest, but he was healed so quickly it barely made a difference.
