Does this Guide say no one before Beers is FTL? [No]

[B]

How do we know this isn't Bob and Margaret years later?

[Cetra]

You know according to DBZA Chichi has a vibrator in her drawer. So this might be the one the text is talking about.

[Cipher]

Wait, why do we care if characters are "faster than light"?

There's 1) The fact that they can't be, due to spatial relativity, and 2) That if we assume the universe completely shirks real-world physics as Dragon Ball's often does, it's a completely meaningless benchmark anyway.

[Herms]

Wait, why do we care if characters are "faster than light"?

We need to get solid answers to these questions so that we can measure Goku's penis and compare it with Superman's penis, and thereby cure cancer and establish world peace.

[Cipher]

Wait, why do we care if characters are "faster than light"?

We need to get solid answers to these questions so that we can measure Goku's penis and compare it with Superman's penis, and thereby cure cancer and establish world peace.

Neither Goku nor Superman can be faster than light while having the concept provide any kind of measuring stick.

Uuuuuuuugh, Interneeeeet.

[Lord Beerus]

Wait, why do we care if characters are "faster than light"?

We need to get solid answers to these questions so that we can measure Goku's penis and compare it with Superman's penis, and thereby cure cancer and establish world peace.

That was hilarious as it was insightful.

[Khin]

I too believe that no one in DBZ before BOG is FTL.Freeza Saga characters are at sub-relativistic with Cell Saga characters being relivistic and Buu Saga characters being relativistic + howerver,I think theres a chance of Vegetto being FTL.Beerus feat in ep 2 and manga chapter 6 makes him billions of times FTL and his ep 12 and 13 feets makes him universe buster.

I'm starting to think now the God tiers are billions of times stronger than Buu Saga top tiers.Jaco mentioned in chapter 6 that there are tons of galaxies in the universe which implied the DB universe is the same as ours.A one Universe have at least 100 billion galaxy.Which makes Beerus at least 100 billion times stronger than a galaxy buster and no character in Buu Saga was shown to be a galaxy buster.The only thing we got is the Cell Saga which SPC states that he can bust solar system and this claim is even debatable because many people consider it as a hyperbole.Even if Cell really is a solar system buster,Buu Saga characters still would not be galaxy busters since the gap between Galaxy and Solar sytem is way too big.A galaxy also contains at least 100 billions of star systems.So we have Beerus being billions of x FTL and Universe level with Buu Saga top tiers being Relativistic + and Solar System level +.It should be noted that to be a multi solar system buster,you need to be thousands of times stronger than a Solar system buster.I think no Buu Saga characters maybe expect for Vegetto is thousand times stronger than Super Perfect Cell.

[Saiyan007]

The gap between Universe and solar system is far far more than just a billion times

[Khin]

The gap between Universe and solar system is far far more than just a billion times

yeah thats why i said ''billions of times''.

[Saiyan007]

The gap between Universe and solar system is far far more than just a billion times

yeah thats why i said ''billions of times''.

While you're not wrong that isn't accurate either

Just destroying our galaxy alone is over 10^58 j and since DB universe is more or less the same size as our own you're going to need a lot of energy.

[Cipher]

I too believe that no one in DBZ before BOG is FTL.Freeza Saga characters are at sub-relativistic with Cell Saga characters being relivistic and Buu Saga characters being relativistic + howerver,I think theres a chance of Vegetto being FTL.Beerus feat in ep 2 and manga chapter 6 makes him billions of times FTL and his ep 12 and 13 feets makes him universe buster.

Can you please tell me what "faster than light" means to you?

[buutenks]

Well,there were never any feats to show FTL speeds before DB super.Even ssj gotenks took a couple of seconds to fly around the earth a couple of times in the anime anyways,manga no time was given other than that he flew and then took a nap.So guessing proly not hehe ^^

[Speedster]

Travelling and fighting speeds are different concepts in Dragonball. Fighting speeds surpassed the speed of light since the 23rd TB arc and the fight of Goku and Piccolo. Read this. Travelling speeds on the other hand have been constantly retconned

1. Kurirn in the Android arc said that if he goes all out he would meet Bulma half-way – Bulma said she needed 20 minutes to go from Capsule Corp in West City to Roshis. That is like the distance from Ireland to Indonesia. So Android saga Kuririn had a travelling speed of around 35,000km/hr. On the other hand Goku in the Saiyan arc flew the 1 million km snakeway in 28 hours. This is a travelling speed of 36,000km/hr. Kuririn in the Adnoid arc was much stronger than Goku in the Saiyan arc by the way.

2. Taopaipai (in the Red Ribbon army arc) threw and outjumped a pillar that travelled 2400km in less than 15minutes so a speed of around 10,000km/hr. Still Goku before Kaio’s training flew across the snakeway (yeah wearing 100kg weights) in 6 months (4 months if you count sleeping). Tao with his pillar would need only 4 days!

3. Piccolo was able to keep up with the nimbus at the start of the “Radditz saga”. Yet a much stronger Goku (after coming back from Kaio’s training) used the nimbus to get to the fight. You might say it would be to conserve his energy. Well why he didn't eat the Senzu bean when arriving at the battlefield? With his snakeway speed he would arrive there in shorter time than the nimbus.

4. Base Goku flew across half of planet Namek in a second. Still base Gohan at the start of the Buu arc has a race with the nimbus - the same nimbus that Piccolo could keep up with at the start of DBZ. Yes he did beat it but that shouldn't be any kind of achievement or anything. After all it can be calculated that Gohan is only 4-5x faster than the nimbus (took him 20mins to go to school with the nimbus while alone he could go there in less than 5 minutes)

I could go on and but I will stop here by saying this: Travelling speed means jack shit in Dragonball. It is conveniently adjusted to provide either contrived drama or contrived awe depending on the requirements of the plot.

[Blackstripe]

Can you please tell me what "faster than light" means to you?

Not the one you asked, I know, but it isn't as complicated as you're making it.

You calculate the time it would take light to reach point A from point B, and then compare it to how long said character took to reach it. If Beerus is billions of times faster than light, it means he can arrive at that point billions of times more quickly than it would take light to do the same.

Why does it matter if it's supposedly impossible? Have you never seen Star Wars or Star Trek? They have faster-than-light travel, too. Why wouldn't a universe-destroying cat God have the required energy to break the cosmic speed limit?

[Helios518]

Can you please tell me what "faster than light" means to you?

Not the one you asked, I know, but it isn't as complicated as you're making it.

You calculate the time it would take light to reach point A from point B, and then compare it to how long said character took to reach it. If Beerus is billions of times faster than light, it means he can arrive at that point billions of times more quickly than it would take light to do the same.

Why does it matter if it's supposedly impossible? Have you never seen Star Wars or Star Trek? They have faster-than-light travel, too.

He put "to you" for a reason. He knows it's not impossible for fiction characters to be faster than light.

Why wouldn't a universe-destroying cat God have the required energy to break the cosmic speed limit?

Even Beerus wouldn't want a speeding ticket from the galactic patrolmen.

[Cipher]

Why does it matter if it's supposedly impossible? Have you never seen Star Wars or Star Trek? They have faster-than-light travel, too.

They have ships that work on vaguely defined worm-hole-related technology, etc., though, don't they? It's justified with a little more gobbeldy-gook, of a variety that still keeps the normal properties of the speed of light in tact.

[quote"Helios518"]He knows it's not impossible for fiction characters to be faster than light.[/quote]
No, that's exactly what I'm saying. Characters cannot move at the speed of light if the concept retains any of its real-world properties that would keep it relevant as a benchmark. At the speed of light they would have to be infinitely massive. The speed of light isn't just something moving really fast--it's a physical limit; nothing outside of massless particles can move that fast.

You can say that Dragon Ball exists in a world without real-world physics, but then being faster than light is a useless measurement in the first place. It just exists to say -- Oh, this character can move 299, 792, 458 meters per second. Which ... is really useless except to compare characters if you somehow knew the exact speed of anyone else.

No one in Dragon Ball has collapsed the universe around them with their infinite mass, so I think it's fair to say either no one has surpassed the speed of light or -- more likely -- the series is completely removed from real-world physics. Which would still mean no one has surpassed the speed of light in any way we could understand it or find it relevant.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why does it matter if it's supposedly impossible? Have you never seen Star Wars or Star Trek? They have faster-than-light travel, too.

They have ships that work on vaguely defined worm-hole-related technology, etc., though, don't they? It's justified with a little more gobbeldy-gook, of a variety that still keeps the normal properties of the speed of light in tact.

Hyperspace in Star Wars is basically an alternate dimension that ships enter to traverse huge distances in "realspace." It's not really that they are moving faster than light; they're circumventing that distance by essentially folding space.

Can't speak for how warp drive in Star Trek works, though.

[Helios518]

Why does it matter if it's supposedly impossible? Have you never seen Star Wars or Star Trek? They have faster-than-light travel, too.

They have ships that work on vaguely defined worm-hole-related technology, etc., though, don't they? It's justified with a little more gobbeldy-gook, of a variety that still keeps the normal properties of the speed of light in tact.

He knows it's not impossible for fiction characters to be faster than light.

No, that's exactly what I'm saying. Characters cannot move at the speed of light if the concept retains any of its real-world properties that would keep it relevant as a benchmark. At the speed of light they would have to be infinitely massive. The speed of light isn't just something moving really fast--it's a physical limit; nothing outside of massless particles can move that fast.

You can say that Dragon Ball exists in a world without real-world physics, but then being faster than light is a useless measurement in the first place. It just exists to say -- Oh, this character can move 299, 792, 458 meters per second. Which ... is really useless except to compare characters if you somehow knew the exact speed of anyone else.

No one in Dragon Ball has collapsed the universe around them with their infinite mass, so I think it's fair to say either no one has surpassed the speed of light or -- more likely -- the series is completely removed from real-world physics. Which would still mean no one has surpassed the speed of light in any way we could understand it or find it relevant.

I didn't say the first quote.
It's most likely the "no real world physics" option. How is Beerus and Whis not FTL if they could go across the universe in less than an hour when light can't even do that?

[Cipher]

How is Beerus and Whis not FTL if they could go across the universe in less than an hour when light can't even do that?

Maybe the universe in Dragon Ball is smaller? Maybe light moves at a different speed. Or, sure, physics as we understand them just don't remotely apply because they didn't become infinitely massive and collapse the universe around them. Maybe they're magic.

The point is, at its most literal, i.e. assuming the speed of light is the same in this world despite retaining none of its other properties as a limit, what does it tell us that Beerus and Whis can maybe move faster than 299, 792, 458 meters per second? That's not really useful information. They're fast. We already know they're fast. We know they're faster than other characters. All this is given to us without the speed of light entering the conversation.

That's what I'm getting at. You can make a lot of assumptions and say, "Oh, these characters must be moving faster than light moves in the real world," but at that point you're removing the reasons people are so focused on someone being "faster than light" in the first place. Either they can't do it, or it's so wildly different from our understanding that it becomes completely irrelevant.

It just doesn't work in a way that's useful for discussion.

EDIT -- Yes, to Kamiccolo9's post below. Thank you.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why does it matter if it's supposedly impossible? Have you never seen Star Wars or Star Trek? They have faster-than-light travel, too.

They have ships that work on vaguely defined worm-hole-related technology, etc., though, don't they? It's justified with a little more gobbeldy-gook, of a variety that still keeps the normal properties of the speed of light in tact.

He knows it's not impossible for fiction characters to be faster than light.

No, that's exactly what I'm saying. Characters cannot move at the speed of light if the concept retains any of its real-world properties that would keep it relevant as a benchmark. At the speed of light they would have to be infinitely massive. The speed of light isn't just something moving really fast--it's a physical limit; nothing outside of massless particles can move that fast.

You can say that Dragon Ball exists in a world without real-world physics, but then being faster than light is a useless measurement in the first place. It just exists to say -- Oh, this character can move 299, 792, 458 meters per second. Which ... is really useless except to compare characters if you somehow knew the exact speed of anyone else.

No one in Dragon Ball has collapsed the universe around them with their infinite mass, so I think it's fair to say either no one has surpassed the speed of light or -- more likely -- the series is completely removed from real-world physics. Which would still mean no one has surpassed the speed of light in any way we could understand it or find it relevant.

I didn't say the first quote.
It's most likely the "no real world physics" option. How is Beerus and Whis not FTL if they could go across the universe in less than an hour when light can't even do that?

What Cipher is saying is that if "faster than light" doesn't equate to what "faster than light" means in real life, then what's the use of using the term in the first place? It's meaningless. If you're cherry picking real-world science to use, then it ultimately has no meaning. You can't use physics to explain why a character can do a thing, when physics also dictate that that thing is impossible. It's a fallacy. You're picking and choosing what rules to follow.