Does Super really have more plotholes than all of DBGT?

[Cursemark505]

Define Ploholes.
Lately, I've seen a lot of people using that term like: I don't like this = plothole.

There are no plotholes so far.
You can argue Goten/Trunks/Marron not freaking grow up is plothole, but that's subjective. Since we have no confirmation that they still care about EOZ, and that Super is happening much sooner than the Movies, timeframe wise.

Super takes place in the same time as the movies. There's nothing suggesting otherwise.

[Blade]

I'm surprised that people aren't talking more about all of the plot-things that Super has fixed and addressed from the movies as opposed to otherwise.

To name a few off the top of my head in the current arc alone:

- Explaining Shenron's current number of wishes.
- Omitting Freeza's "1.3 Million" power level estimation
- Explaining Buu's no-show when Freeza arrives.
- Having Trunks and Goten show up after they felt a great power (as they would, as yeah, they can sense ki.)
- Explaining Godly Ki
- Touching on Gohan's lack of an ability to draw out his full power, hence the reason why he has to go Super Saiyan - Which is something that the fandom has been screaming for something to pay lip-service to since like 1996.

Frankly, I'm seeing more plot-hole filling than digging in Super.

[successoroffate]

Define Ploholes.
Lately, I've seen a lot of people using that term like: I don't like this = plothole.

There are no plotholes so far.
You can argue Goten/Trunks/Marron not freaking grow up is plothole, but that's subjective. Since we have no confirmation that they still care about EOZ, and that Super is happening much sooner than the Movies, timeframe wise.

Only one plothole so far. The conversation between Uub and Goku at the End of Z doesn't fit or help Super at all. Yet again, I don't care about plotholes unless is all over my face in every episode which, hasn't happened yet.

Whether is the ending of the Manga, or the ending of the Anime we have to understand that the show ended in a note where TOEI And Toriyama where thinking " Aside from GT, This is it." Nothing else happens after Buu, which of course, it's no longer the case and I think the end of Super it's going to fix whatever doesn't fit.

[successoroffate]

I'm surprised that people aren't talking more about all of the plot-things that Super has fixed and addressed from the movies as opposed to otherwise.

To name a few off the top of my head in the current arc alone:

- Explaining Shenron's current number of wishes.
- Omitting Freeza's "1.3 Million" power level estimation
- Explaining Buu's no-show when Freeza arrives.
- Having Trunks and Goten show up after they felt a great power (as they would, as yeah, they can sense ki.)
- Explaining Godly Ki
- Touching on Gohan's lack of an ability to draw out his full power, hence the reason why he has to go Super Saiyan - Which is something that the fandom has been screaming for something to pay lip-service to since like 1996.

-The number of wishes could be anything less than a plothole.
-Don't look too deep into Power Levels, they are just numbers.
-Buu's sleeping...they said it.
-Not sure what's the plothole of them (Goten and Trunks) showing up because they felt Freeza's humongous Ki.
-Gohan doesn't train. Just like in real life if you don't do exercise and start slacking off, you're going to lose your physical condition. You need to get it back.
-If it's the Ki of a God...how are they going to get an explanation of something that transcends time.

[Doctor.]

-The number of wishes could be anything less than a plothole.

No it couldn't. The number of wishes is the only thing that's objective enough where you can say with absolute certainty that it is or it is not a plot hole.

[successoroffate]

-The number of wishes could be anything less than a plothole.

No it couldn't. The number of wishes is the only thing that's objective enough where you can say with absolute certainty that it is or it is not a plot hole.

It's not substantial enough to destroy the timeline, continuity or ending of the series.

[Doctor.]

-The number of wishes could be anything less than a plothole.

No it couldn't. The number of wishes is the only thing that's objective enough where you can say with absolute certainty that it is or it is not a plot hole.

It's not substantial enough to destroy the timeline, continuity or ending of the series.

That'd just mean it's a small plot hole, but a plot hole nonetheless. Just like Goku getting the DBs after 8 months, instead of a year. He could have waited those 4 months and the series wouldn't have changed.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm surprised that people aren't talking more about all of the plot-things that Super has fixed and addressed from the movies as opposed to otherwise.

To name a few off the top of my head in the current arc alone:

- Explaining Shenron's current number of wishes.
- Omitting Freeza's "1.3 Million" power level estimation
- Explaining Buu's no-show when Freeza arrives.
- Having Trunks and Goten show up after they felt a great power (as they would, as yeah, they can sense ki.)
- Explaining Godly Ki
- Touching on Gohan's lack of an ability to draw out his full power, hence the reason why he has to go Super Saiyan - Which is something that the fandom has been screaming for something to pay lip-service to since like 1996.

Frankly, I'm seeing more plot-hole filling than digging in Super.

Super also axed the whole "Shisami is as strong as Zarbon/Dodoria but can still kick Piccolo's ass" scenario from ROF. And they their credit, they also explained how Ginyu!Frog ended up on Earth and survived during the Majin Boo arc.

[Kamiccolo9]

Where does this idea that plotholes destroy continuity come from? Seriously, I'm part of fanbases of two of the biggest continuity-obsessed cultures on the planet (Marvel and Star Wars), yet we don't use nearly as many irrelevant made-up rules as Dragon Ball.

A plot hole is a hole in the plot. In layman's terms, it's an "oops." That doesn't mean that anything deriving from that plothole "never happened."

[Blade]

-The number of wishes could be anything less than a plothole.
-Don't look too deep into Power Levels, they are just numbers.
-Buu's sleeping...they said it.
-Not sure what's the plothole of them (Goten and Trunks) showing up because they felt Freeza's humongous Ki.
-Gohan doesn't train. Just like in real life if you don't do exercise and start slacking off, you're going to lose your physical condition. You need to get it back.
-If it's the Ki of a God...how are they going to get an explanation of something that transcends time.

- It's inconsistent without explanation - and that has been lacking in both Battle of Gods and Revival of F. Super provides an explanation. This is better than nothing from a storytelling perspective.
- Numbers are symbolic of something, and the term 'Power Level' has to be some sort of consistent measurement for the Freeza force to bother with scouters. There is no getting around that it made zero sense for Freeza to think that reaching a Power Level of 1.3 Million would make him any sort of a match for Goku, having already surpassed that level himself many times in established in-universe events long ago. The remark was flippant at best in Toriyama's script, and Super fixed the discrepancy by removing it.
- No. Toriyama's script said it - it never made it to the film, Super addressed it.
- There is no reason for them not being there in Revival of F. There's no way that Bulma could have just not told them and hidden it from them. They're mischievous kids who can sense ki, by all meter of logic, they would have sensed the battle and showed up. Super addressed this.
- This has always been assumed, but never really addressed in regard to his 'Ultimate' state. Super seems to provide the first spoken dialogue to explain Gohan's need to become a Super Saiyan. This has been intimated before but never stated.
- At least Super is quantifying it as being a 'thing' that isn't just lightly touched upon or hinted at, like it is in the films.

[successoroffate]

Where does this idea that plotholes destroy continuity come from? Seriously, I'm part of fanbases of two of the biggest continuity-obsessed cultures on the planet (Marvel and Star Wars), yet we don't use nearly as many irrelevant made-up rules as Dragon Ball.

A plot hole is a hole in the plot. In layman's terms, it's an "oops." That doesn't mean that anything deriving from that plothole "never happened."

A plot hole is an inconsistency. Listen, I don't care about plot holes unless they're big, and I am a GT fan so I'm used to the plot hole debate. Super just like GT, is not perfect, but so far I haven't been so thrown off by a plot hole on Super to decide to stop watching the show or to say the show sucks because it has many too many inconsistencies. The ending of Z doesn't fit to Super, just like GT doesn't fit that well to Z and it fits even less now thanks to Super (And like I said, I love GT but I am aware of its flaws but it doesn't stop me for liking the show unlike others).

Ginyu showing up? Weak Gohan? Gotenks? Extra DB Wish? All of these things are small inconsistencies and shouldn't throw anyone off Super and neither should be use to argue that the show is not that good.

[successoroffate]

- It's inconsistent without explanation - and that has been lacking in both Battle of Gods and Revival of F. Super provides an explanation. This is better than nothing from a storytelling perspective.
- Numbers are symbolic of something, and the term 'Power Level' has to be some sort of consistent measurement for the Freeza force to bother with scouters. There is no getting around that it made zero sense for Freeza to think that reaching a Power Level of 1.3 Million would make him any sort of a match for Goku, having already surpassed that level himself many times in established in-universe events long ago. The remark was flippant at best in Toriyama's script, and Super fixed the discrepancy by removing it.
- No. Toriyama's script said it - it never made it to the film, Super addressed it.
- There is no reason for them not being there in Revival of F. There's no way that Bulma could have just not told them and hidden it from them. They're mischievous kids who can sense ki, by all meter of logic, they would have sensed the battle and showed up. Super addressed this.
- This has always been assumed, but never really addressed in regard to his 'Ultimate' state. Super seems to provide the first spoken dialogue to explain Gohan's need to become a Super Saiyan. This has been intimated before but never stated.
- At least Super is quantifying it as being a 'thing' that isn't just lightly touched upon or hinted at, like it is in the films.

Those two sound like, if anything, plot holes from RoF and not Super.

[omaro34]

Episode 22 of Super did have some plotholes. Gotenks diffusing so quickly, inconsistent power scalings, etc. Ginyu's body change technique if I recall required him saying "change" and not the victim. I'm starting to think that Ginyu's purple horned body wasn't originally his, he must have done the technique to someone else in order master it. With all of that being said, we haven't seen enough of Super to say that it has more plotholes than GT.

By the way, plotholes were never the major issue with GT. Below are the main reasons:

1) Turning Goku into a kid again (We want to see him progress further, not backwards).

2) Total misuse of such a large and colorful cast and just focusing on a few characters (Goku, Pan, Trunks).

3) The incredible ability to start something great with amazing potential but end it with such poor execution.

[Blade]

Those two sound like, if anything, plot holes from RoF and not Super.

I have no idea what the heck you're getting at.

Are we even having the same conversation? I'm explaining plot holes from the films that Super has addressed/fixed.

[Basaku]

There are no plotholes so far.
You can argue Goten/Trunks/Marron not freaking grow up is plothole, but that's subjective. Since we have no confirmation that they still care about EOZ, and that Super is happening much sooner than the Movies, timeframe wise.

It's not very subjective when entire DBZ showed different pattern of growth for humans and saiyan-human hybrids then what is being done right now, including the very same character (Trunks) lol. Although the reasons for that are perfectly known (marketing, 2 potato-sized fighters are cute etc). Still doesn't change that it's becoming a plothole. "Next year" Trunks will be the same age as in History of Trunks. If by then they still show him potato-size it will cross the line of ridiculousness for for the sake of merchandise/nostalgia points.

By the way, plotholes were never the major issue with GT. Below are the main reasons:

3) The incredible ability to start something great with amazing potential but end it with such poor execution.

I wouldn't call start of GT like that. Some potential yeah, but quickly evaporated. As much as I can criticize Super, let's rememeber where we were around episode 20 in GT. Barely starting Baby arc after disastrous filler-feeling and extremly low-stakes Black Star DBs arc that made half the audience bail on the show. Compared to that, Super looks almost brilliant

[successoroffate]

Those two sound like, if anything, plot holes from RoF and not Super.

I have no idea what the heck you're getting at.

Are we even having the same conversation? I'm explaining plot holes from the films that Super has addressed/fixed.

Disregard, I misread your comment. My bad.

[FortuneSSJ]

Define Ploholes.
Lately, I've seen a lot of people using that term like: I don't like this = plothole.

There are no plotholes so far.
You can argue Goten/Trunks/Marron not freaking grow up is plothole, but that's subjective. Since we have no confirmation that they still care about EOZ, and that Super is happening much sooner than the Movies, timeframe wise.

Super takes place in the same time as the movies. There's nothing suggesting otherwise.

There are episode 1 and episode 2 events. Satan receiving the world peace prize for saving the earth from Buu and Vegeta fulfilling his promise to Trunks.
Both make it seem that Super takes place shortly after Buu arc.

Battle of Gods Movie didn't have any of that, so it was easy to accept that the movie took place 4 years Buu. Even though, that was only confirmed in interviews.

The only fact we have in Super, is that it takes place more than 6 months after Buu. Thanks Narrator!
Baby Pan appears in ROF and she's 4 years old in EOZ, but nothing tells me they still care about EOZ. So, the timeframe is indeed subjective for now.

Super is changing some things anyway. I need to see until where this is going.

[Basaku]

The only fact we have in Super, is that it takes place more than 6 months after Buu. Thanks Narrator!
Baby Pan appears in ROF and she's 4 years old in EOZ, but nothing tells me they still care about EOZ. So, the timeframe is indeed subjective for now.

Super is changing some things anyway. I need to see until where this is going.

EOZ is the ending of original manga, I'm having hard time believing Toei/Toriyama could disregard it. It's not GT, DB Online, movies or anime-filler. It's considered main core of indisputable 'canon' by majority of fans

[Doctor.]

The only fact we have in Super, is that it takes place more than 6 months after Buu. Thanks Narrator!
Baby Pan appears in ROF and she's 4 years old in EOZ, but nothing tells me they still care about EOZ. So, the timeframe is indeed subjective for now.

Super is changing some things anyway. I need to see until where this is going.

EOZ is the ending of original manga, I'm having hard time believing Toei/Toriyama could disregard it. It's not GT, DB Online, movies or anime-filler. It's considered main core of indisputable 'canon' by majority of fans

Toriyama has retconned the original ending once already through the Kanzenban release of the manga.

[fadeddreams5]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was retconned in Super. Same exact events, only more interactions, as well references to events from Super (e.g. SSJG). I can see them squeezing one of the new characters into the list of attendees of that tournament. Small things like that.