Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potential

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:39 pm

TheMikado wrote:
What? No one interpreted it like that. Everyone assumed maintaining the SSJ form caused the power drain in each in both versions. Based on your interpretation, after the initial transformation they could just pop a sensu bean and get the same effect. Literally no one interpeted that dub to mean what you just said. And everyone always assumed it was to take the stress off of maintaining the form because if that we're the case they would have been working on switching on and off SSJ rather than calmly maintaining it.
I've seen people interpret it like that many, many times over the years based on the dub, because in the dub, that's exactly what Vegeta's saying.
"You're missing the point. It's not about powering up. The point is that they won't have to power up, when they fight. They can use all the energy it would take to transform to increase their stamina and then, only go higher if they need to. Darn, it's so ingenious!"
That part right there in particular, as the way it's worded really couldn't be taken as anything else, that what energy they're expending in actually transforming (not maintaining the transformation) can be converted to fighting instead, and then people would use the fact that they're already transformed as evidence for that, that because they're transformed, then they don't need to waste energy in transforming.

The two pretty clearly describe different things, which is why I brought up that the dub's dialogue isn't very accurate. Original Vegeta is talking about them not wasting power in maintaining the form, while Dub Vegeta is talking about them not wasting power when initially transforming.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by TheMikado » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:47 am

This is pointless to argue but I wonder if we could get a poll of people who thought that. The only way you could think it means that is to not actually watch the anime. In context and watching the anime it makes perfect sense in maintaining the form constantly like runners lowering their heart rate. Otherwise they would be practicing going in and out of SSJ, not maintaining it.

There's no need to be a dub snob when the vast majority of people really aren't interpretating it any other way. I would even dare you to generally ask who on these forums thought that's what it meant.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by apex_pretador » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:06 am

Captain Strawberry wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:
What makes you think it is a full unlock? That would imply it is stronger than the grade 3 form. And Trunks in his grade 3 form was stronger than Cell.
Stronger than heavily suppressed cell.

Also, I believe that they both are equally powerful, upto the max power of Super Saiyan form, the ONLY difference being strain (which also causes bulkiness).
evidence that it was heavily suppressed Cell?
isn't it obvious that the power cell used against trunks wasn't even close to his full power?
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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Captain Strawberry » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:18 pm

evidence that it was heavily suppressed Cell?[/quote]
isn't it obvious that the power cell used against trunks wasn't even close to his full power?[/quote]

When Cell said that Trunks indeed surpassed Cell, I took it literally. Like, if it wasn't surpressed Cell than Toriyama would have given a obvious dialogue like for example, Cell would have said something like 'You have surpassed my suppressed state'.

So I still think, Grade 3 Trunks or Ultra SSJ was stronger than full powered Cell prior to SP Cell.
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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:39 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote: When Cell said that Trunks indeed surpassed Cell, I took it literally. Like, if it wasn't surpressed Cell than Toriyama would have given a obvious dialogue like for example, Cell would have said something like 'You have surpassed my suppressed state'.

So I still think, Grade 3 Trunks or Ultra SSJ was stronger than full powered Cell prior to SP Cell.
When Cell reveals his full power during his battle with Ssj2 Gohan, Trunks and everyone else reacted in shock to how much power he was exhibited, with a number of indications that it's a level of power beyond what he's ever shown before. This throws into doubt that he was talking about his full power when referring to Trunks "surpassing him" beforehand.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Captain Strawberry » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:41 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote: When Cell said that Trunks indeed surpassed Cell, I took it literally. Like, if it wasn't surpressed Cell than Toriyama would have given a obvious dialogue like for example, Cell would have said something like 'You have surpassed my suppressed state'.

So I still think, Grade 3 Trunks or Ultra SSJ was stronger than full powered Cell prior to SP Cell.
When Cell reveals his full power during his battle with Ssj2 Gohan, Trunks and everyone else reacted in shock to how much power he was exhibited, with a number of indications that it's a level of power beyond what he's ever shown before. This throws into doubt that he was talking about his full power when referring to Trunks "surpassing him" beforehand.
This is convincing. Is this before his zenkai boost?
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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Sora Saiyan » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:24 am

Captain Strawberry wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote: When Cell said that Trunks indeed surpassed Cell, I took it literally. Like, if it wasn't surpressed Cell than Toriyama would have given a obvious dialogue like for example, Cell would have said something like 'You have surpassed my suppressed state'.

So I still think, Grade 3 Trunks or Ultra SSJ was stronger than full powered Cell prior to SP Cell.
When Cell reveals his full power during his battle with Ssj2 Gohan, Trunks and everyone else reacted in shock to how much power he was exhibited, with a number of indications that it's a level of power beyond what he's ever shown before. This throws into doubt that he was talking about his full power when referring to Trunks "surpassing him" beforehand.
This is convincing. Is this before his zenkai boost?
Yes it was before his Zenkai. Also, when Goku went to show Korin his power they were all shocked by his power at the lookout clearly shocked and he was only showing off about 50% off his power. I don't know about you, but we know that power surpassed Vegeta by a good margin and I don't have trunks being over 2x stronger than Super Vegeta. So Cell made two power ups which should surpass SSJ Grade 3 Trunks logically, the one against Goku and the one against SSJ2 Gohan.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:14 am

Captain Strawberry wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote: When Cell said that Trunks indeed surpassed Cell, I took it literally. Like, if it wasn't surpressed Cell than Toriyama would have given a obvious dialogue like for example, Cell would have said something like 'You have surpassed my suppressed state'.

So I still think, Grade 3 Trunks or Ultra SSJ was stronger than full powered Cell prior to SP Cell.
When Cell reveals his full power during his battle with Ssj2 Gohan, Trunks and everyone else reacted in shock to how much power he was exhibited, with a number of indications that it's a level of power beyond what he's ever shown before. This throws into doubt that he was talking about his full power when referring to Trunks "surpassing him" beforehand.
This is convincing. Is this before his zenkai boost?
It was before Gohan had forced Cell to regurgitate #18, let alone before his near-death power-up.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Saturnine » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:32 am

I agree with apex_predator on this one. FPSSj allows you to become as powerful as USSj but without any of the drawbacks. That makes the most sense.

So yeah, two Saiyans with the same base powerlevel will be equally powerful if one powers up to FPSSj and the other, untrained one goes USSj. The first one will clearly have the advantage in speed though, not to mention he'll keep his power while the USSj guy will get drained rapidly. So while the max power is the same, FPSSj is still vastly superior.

Look at it as if you were examining 100% Freeza. Initially he got all buff and leaky, and in RoF he conditioned this body to hold all this power easily and so it didn't really change when he powered up to the max. I think this is a direct parallel to the USSj vs FPSSj question.

And yeah, when Cell said Trunks surpassed him in power he meant his state as of then - the heavily suppressed state. But back then everyone thought that was Cell's maximum, so him being an intelligent guy and all, why would he point them out of their error? The unpleasant surprise came anyway when he powered up against Goku during the Cell Games, and even more so again when he powered up against SSj2 Gohan even further.
Darkprince410 wrote:The power output isn't changed at all, just the efficiency in ki usage.
Um, ok...
Then, all the ki that would end up going to simply maintaining the form can be used for combat purposes instead.
Doesn't this like, literally translate to having a bigger ki, and therefore a higher powerlevel, though?

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by TheMikado » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:43 pm

I have idea what people thing FSSJ gives you any kind of power boost?

All it does it make it more efficient rather than more powerful.

Think of it like a battery. One battery is more efficient because it designed/trained to keep the car running longer. The capacity doesn't increase the OUTPUT. Power wise anyway. USSJ is like close to SSJ2 levels but with a severe speed drain making it useless.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Saturnine » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:02 pm

TheMikado wrote:I have idea what people thing FSSJ gives you any kind of power boost?
Because once it's achieved by Goku, everyone else magically stops using Grade 2 or 3 from that point onward. Even though these forms still should logically have their uses. Goku doesn't use Grade 2 during the Cell Games, and says he went absolutely all-out in that fight - which means he couldn't use those forms anymore. And he isn't the type not to try everything he can to win. Vegeta and Trunks didn't use Grade 2 anymore during the Cell Games either. Now which is more convincing, that they just arbitrarily stopped using this form for a very weak reason? Or that they simply couldn't and didn't need to at the same time, because they learned to condition their bodies to hold the same amount of power in regular Super Saiyan? If SSj Vegeta went Grade 2, he'd have destroyed the Cell Junior that he was fighting evenly against. Why didn't he do that?
All it does it make it more efficient rather than more powerful.
IMO that, while good, is not a strong enough reason on its own to pursue it. Not if that is all it grants. Besides, you should still be able to go Grade 2 to amplify your power further, yet no one ever does that anymore. However you will notice that the moment of achieving FPSSj is the first time ever that Super Saiyans are shown to be able to power up without changing their form.

In the beginning they were just stuck at a set 50x Base and they weren't able to go either up or down from there. After some training, they could learn to go up, but at the cost of the body becoming bulkier and the ki draining quite fast (Grade 2). So why shouldn't mastering SSj allow you to go up to at least your previous Grade 2 levels if your body is hardened and conditioned? In the manga the aura for a Grade 2 Saiyan and a powering up FPSSj are drawn in exactly the same way. The Daizenshuu even makes a direct reference to how the aura around a FPSSj is different than that of a regular SSj.
Think of it like a battery. One battery is more efficient because it designed/trained to keep the car running longer. The capacity doesn't increase the OUTPUT. Power wise anyway.
And you think of it like Freeza. Compare him powering up to 100% on Namek, and powering up to 100% after his resurrection. How would you describe the difference? And how is it any different from what we see with Grades 2 and 3 and FPSSj? While the question of Freeza's speed was never touched upon, Grade 3's the ki drain is the most direct possible parallel to Freeza's untrained 100% body.
USSJ is like close to SSJ2 levels but with a severe speed drain making it useless.
USSj isn't anywhere close to SSj2 levels. SSj2 during its introduction was portrayed as being in a whole different world to everything that came before it. USSj Trunks was already inferior to FPSSj Goku. Hell, he was even inferior to his regular SSj self from the Cell Games. I don't blame you for thinking that, though, seeing as how the SEG established the SSj2 multiplier at a mere 2x. That feels like nothing.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by TheMikado » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:57 pm

Ok, I think we need to first call FSSJ exactly what it is. Physical Conditioning

Goku and Gohan's training consisted of the same time of training endurance runners do. The point is to maintain elevated levels of exertion so that they become your new baseline. For example, endurance runner have significantly lower pulses then the general population. The reason is that their endurance training consists of running hours at a time so that their physicological running state is similar to an normal average person. In this way they are able to concentrate their energy on the practice of running during a competition without using as much energy to maintain that elevated state during running.

The second time of conditioning is speed training. This is where you push for faster and faster speeds, even at the expense of energy depletion. Because these are burst or sprints, energy consumption is not the focus but maximum power output is.

These types or training do not automatically guarantee gains in the other although they can. Because you can run a 5 mile marathon at 10mph, DOES NOT make you immediately capable of running 400 meters at 25mph and vice versa.


That said you evidence that FSSJ replaces SSJ Grade 2 makes little sense as they have two completely different functions. FSSJ improves endurance and efficiency. Grade 2 improves max output at the expense of energy and moreso with Grade 3.

To answer you question on why they didn't use it, it depends on who you ask and what you consider canon as Vegeta appears to use it in the anime as a boost when needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKyG8EXh7D8

Since I will hear none stop arguments about using the anime we will ignore that for now for the sake of argument.

I will use a marathon as an example. As a runner you do not run at maximum speed straight out the gate. In the case of the Z fighters, using Grade 2 does nothing but expend precious energy without knowing how long the fight will go on and should only be used if approaching the finish line. Smart runners conserve energy until the finish line is within reach. In the case of the Z fighters vs Cell they were so far from being able to take on Cell that getting the small boost from Grade at the expense of possible exhaustion could have literally killed them as they wouldnt be able to defend themselves as easily. In this way saying it wasnt used. (eventhough it was in the anime) is a poor excuse as it wouldnt have made sense to open themselves to the possibility of exhaustion and death.

Now on to the power levels of the grades. We know that SSJ is supposed to be 50X base and SSJ2 is 100X base. If they other forms fall somewhere in between as you say then I would estimate SSJ grade 2 x75, SSJ grade 3 x90.

You can see with each grade level there are diminishing returns and they forcibly increase their energy output. Vegeta and Trunks focused on making these forms output more power but at the cost of energy and were not sustainable and to only be used in short bursts of fights.

Even Cell senses Gohan's ki and states that as Gohan is powering up to SSJ2, Trunks used a similar technique which didnt end well for him. Cell is detecting the same type of power spikes from Gohan as he does Trunks.

I'm not following you on the Frieza thing because I thought we were talking about SSJ.

Anyway FSSJ is nothing more than a conditioning state for endurance in the SSJ form and normalizing the SSJ as easily as their base, a trick most professional athletes especially running and cyclists use. While this can have the added effect of making them faster/stronger it is not the primary purpose or result of this form of training unlike Vegeta and Trunks training.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Hitiro » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:25 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote: When Cell said that Trunks indeed surpassed Cell, I took it literally. Like, if it wasn't surpressed Cell than Toriyama would have given a obvious dialogue like for example, Cell would have said something like 'You have surpassed my suppressed state'.

So I still think, Grade 3 Trunks or Ultra SSJ was stronger than full powered Cell prior to SP Cell.
When Cell reveals his full power during his battle with Ssj2 Gohan, Trunks and everyone else reacted in shock to how much power he was exhibited, with a number of indications that it's a level of power beyond what he's ever shown before. This throws into doubt that he was talking about his full power when referring to Trunks "surpassing him" beforehand.
Does it actually throw it into doubt? The characters can still be surprised by his power while it not being as significant as someone else, such as Trunks. It could be one of those "This is astonishing, this is the power of this individual without an additional transformation?!" rather than "This is the largest power I've sensed!" It's the same with Goku and Gohan. Their powers don't have to be greater than SSJG3. They just have to be so high that it leaves Trunks and the others amazed that they could reach that level only using the regular SSJ form, if you get what I'm saying?

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by apex_pretador » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:24 pm

TheMikado wrote:
That said you evidence that FSSJ replaces SSJ Grade 2 makes little sense as they have two completely different functions. FSSJ improves endurance and efficiency. Grade 2 improves max output at the expense of energy and moreso with Grade 3.
Let's for once, rather than talking about "fan made" theories, guidebooks, implications, etc, etc, etc, get straight to manga.

Grade 2 form is used in a battle once (properly). Vegeta uses it to fight cell. He sees semi-perfect cell and realizes something, that he needs to use grade 2. He transforms in front of cell, who initially doesn't view him as anything special, but suddenly gets scared. During the entire fight, vegeta doesn't break a sweat, nor gets tired like goku did whenever he used kaioken.

However, cell reveals that he hasn't been serious the entire time, and hiding power. He powers up but vegeta still thinks he's a joke. Vegeta stil defeats him with a little trouble only, and still showing 0, absolutely 0 signs of tireness.
Cell then fools vegeta into letting him absorb #18, and becomes perfect.
PC then easily overpowers vegeta, while not trying. Vegeta still doesn't show any signs of "stamina issues" like KaioKen , SS3 or 100 buff freeza.
Even after beatdown from cell, "super" vegeta shows "super" stamina, and charges up a final flash , using all of his ki, plus other ki from outside, while still in his grade 2 form.


When has grade 2 ever shown to be disadvantageous? Or bad at stamina? FPSSJ goku showed worse stamina than vegeta as ASSJ did.
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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by TheMikado » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:05 pm

^ Everything I state is going to be immediately dismissed because I'm using an anime example and for God only knows what reason people don't consider it canon but here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBb1t00S4HA

This is the best all around explaination of the grades

1) Gohan states he believes Goku should be able to beat Cell but Goku notes the speed as the issue.
This leads us to believe USSJ is technically powerful/strong enough to defeat Cell.

2) Goku specifically note TransformationS (with an S in case anyone missed it) wastes/drains power.
Goku is also notably straining with each additional grade.

3) Goku specifically states the point of their training is to make the SSJ base transformation more natural. ( less weird)

4) Just like running/cycling, mastery at lower levels allows you to hit higher levels more easily. It's implied the higher the level the more strain and detriment you experience in exchange for the raw power. Making it far less efficient. Similar in the way that the faster you run the more energy you use unless you specifically train for those higher speeds.

5) Vegeta and Trunks concentrated on output of power rather than endurance. Imagine the difference between doing high rep, low weights vs low rep, high weights. In this case Vegeta and Trunks would be able to output more power with less fatigue as that's the kind of training they performed. I.E. a sprinter isn't going to get worn out running a bunch of sprints because that's the main type of training he has done.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Hitiro » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:25 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ Everything I state is going to be immediately dismissed because I'm using an anime example and for God only knows what reason people don't consider it canon but here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBb1t00S4HA

This is the best all around explaination of the grades

1) Gohan states he believes Goku should be able to beat Cell but Goku notes the speed as the issue.
This leads us to believe USSJ is technically powerful/strong enough to defeat Cell.

2) Goku specifically note TransformationS (with an S in case anyone missed it) wastes/drains power.
Goku is also notably straining with each additional grade.

3) Goku specifically states the point of their training is to make the SSJ base transformation more natural. ( less weird)

4) Just like running/cycling, mastery at lower levels allows you to hit higher levels more easily. It's implied the higher the level the more strain and detriment you experience in exchange for the raw power. Making it far less efficient. Similar in the way that the faster you run the more energy you use unless you specifically train for those higher speeds.

5) Vegeta and Trunks concentrated on output of power rather than endurance. Imagine the difference between doing high rep, low weights vs low rep, high weights. In this case Vegeta and Trunks would be able to output more power with less fatigue as that's the kind of training they performed. I.E. a sprinter isn't going to get worn out running a bunch of sprints because that's the main type of training he has done.
This won't be dismissed because it happens in the manga too. The only things that get dismissed is pieces of filler like Vegetto fighting Boohan in base or Popo putting up a decent fight against two SSJ children. I don't see why FPSSJ would increase/unlock potential though. You're right about endurance because it is specifically stated. I guess you could argue that they could train better as they could maintain SSJ for longer and thus train in SSJ for longer? I always looked at Goku's massive leap in power coming from his training with Gohan who had ridiculous potential. Goku was forced to keep up. As Akira Toriyama said in a recent interview Saiyan's have the ability to get stronger when they fight, it would even be possible for Goku to fight evenly with Beerus if the fight in BoG were to keep going. So in this scenario Goku was faced with an incredible sparring parter that was growing due to his potential unlocking more and more. Which forced Goku to keep up and gain massive gains.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by apex_pretador » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:46 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ Everything I state is going to be immediately dismissed because I'm using an anime example and for God only knows what reason people don't consider it canon but here goes.
When?

1) Gohan states he believes Goku should be able to beat Cell but Goku notes the speed as the issue.
This leads us to believe USSJ is technically powerful/strong enough to defeat Cell.
SEMI-PERFECT CELL.

2) Goku specifically note TransformationS (with an S in case anyone missed it) wastes/drains power.
Goku is also notably straining with each additional grade.
Grade 3, not grade 2

3) Goku specifically states the point of their training is to make the SSJ base transformation more natural. ( less weird)
ok
4) Just like running/cycling, mastery at lower levels allows you to hit higher levels more easily. It's implied the higher the level the more strain and detriment you experience in exchange for the raw power. Making it far less efficient. Similar in the way that the faster you run the more energy you use unless you specifically train for those higher speeds.
GRADE 2?
5) Vegeta and Trunks concentrated on output of power rather than endurance. Imagine the difference between doing high rep, low weights vs low rep, high weights. In this case Vegeta and Trunks would be able to output more power with less fatigue as that's the kind of training they performed. I.E. a sprinter isn't going to get worn out running a bunch of sprints because that's the main type of training he has done.
But Vegeta doesn't seem to show any problem with endurance. Grade 3 only gets specified for energy loss, not grade 2 (speed loss too).
Did you even read my post I put together with so much effort?
Goku's stamina showed worse performance than vegeta's stamina did.
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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by TheMikado » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:41 pm

^ You didn't watch or read I guess. Goku specifically says transformation with an S This means all of them. This includes Grade 2. This includes Grade 2. This includes Grade 2.

You can make the argument about it semi-perfect Cell, but we have no idea how "powerful" in relation to SSJ2, USSJ is. Many (most) people have it close to SSJ2 in raw power and a substantial drain in speed. Even when we look at SSJ Trunks grade 3 vs. Perfect Cell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poG4sKvu8ew

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:09 pm

I believe that MSSJ only increases the Saiyans base power, and the way it does so is by making the body so tough that the strain of SSJ is basically non existent. I view it like Gokus weight/gravity training throughout DB, where he sort of forces his body to toughen to the constant pressure from the extra weight to the point where it feels natural.

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Re: Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potentia

Post by buutenks » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:31 pm

Fpssj imo is ssj grade 3 without muscle gain and speed loss. Basically goku can go beyond normal ssj without buffing up. That is mssj or fpssj.

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