Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potential

[Captain Strawberry]

Like the multiplier is still 50x but when you train, you develop quicker which explains why Goku surpassed a grade 2 Vegeta so much.

[Desassina]

Without strain, they can unlock more power, when it deformed and slowed them down before. Notice that they were stated to be regular SSJ as well, before they increased their power. It could be more than 50x when their mind is set for battle, and they release suppression.

[Captain Strawberry]

Without strain, they can unlock more power, when it deformed and slowed them down before. Notice that they were stated to be regular SSJ as well, before they increased their power. It could be more than 50x when their mind is set for battle, and they release suppression.

you seem to be one of the big theorists of this forum lol

Maybe, this SSJ heightens speed so your speed is vastly increased. Just a thought.

[Desassina]

I'm just catching up to what I missed all of those years, when discussing Dragon Ball was popular on the net, without actually being part of or as in-depth as the community that existed. In other words, I've just recently re-discovered Dragon Ball.

[apex_pretador]

nope. It IS unlock of full power of super saiyan form. If anything, it is the limit.

See it like this - When trunks surpassed the limitations of SS form, they were forced, into grade 2 super saiyan. The reason that muscles were bulky is, due to the fact that the powerup was forced. So, when more power is forced onto them, even that limit is broken, and if the saiyan continues to power-up to his fullest, he then reaches a power which is the top of the super saian form. It is grade 3. The bulky muscles swell up even more due to higher strain. Since the muscles are too big & swollen, they hinder the movement, and effectively dectrease the movement speed (not travel speed).


However, goku decided to remove the strain associated with the form, so that he can power-up and muscles don't swell up. So, when he removed all the strain, & uneasy feeling in the SS form, he achieved a power which future trunks couldnt achieve without bulky muscles since the muscles weren't strained.

TLDR:

SS + Powerup to max + strain = USSJ / Grade 3
SS + Power to max - Strain = FPSSJ

[Captain Strawberry]

nope. It IS unlock of full power of super saiyan form. If anything, it is the limit.


SS + Powerup to max + strain = USSJ / Grade 3
SS + Power to max - Strain = FPSSJ

What makes you think it is a full unlock? That would imply it is stronger than the grade 3 form. And Trunks in his grade 3 form was stronger than Cell.

[Haji]

Full power SSJ is Grade 4. SSJ2 was known as Grade 5. I'm not sure if number order determines the forms power or not. Grade 3 could be a more powerful form than Grade 4.

[Darkprince410]

The way it's described in the manga and the guide books, it's no bigger of an increase in power than the regular Super Saiya-jin transformation. What makes it better is that, whereas Super Saiya-jin, 2nd Grade, and 3rd Grade all had considerable ki drain and physical stress to maintain, Full-power Super Saiya-jin has virtually none (about as close to the drain present in the base form that it can go. Then, all the ki that would end up going to simply maintaining the form can be used for combat purposes instead. The power output isn't changed at all, just the efficiency in ki usage.

[Desassina]

SSJ was documented as a power increase, which includes amplifying one's traits, while SSJ2 and 3 were said to be a few times stronger, despite their Ki having increased as well. I guess that what they have in common is the fact that they are mutations more than techniques (unlike Kaioken), and that mastering the form and powering up further are quite different. Here's an example:

Spoiler:

Power = Courage * Energy * Right Mindedness * Other types of Ki

Power (w/ Energy as consumption) = Strength * Agility / Energy

If energy divides by less, then the characters' power is higher, and the more power they have, the stronger and faster they are. FPSSJ has minimal strain, so its power is maximized, while Tenshinhan is a perfect example of energy so high that his power adds little to his strength and agility, hence why Cell can be pushed back by Shin Kikoho, but not kicked around by him.

Alternatively, we can use another type of Ki:

Spoiler:

Power (w/ Courage as a detractor) = Strength * Agility / Courage

Courage is now making power seem little in comparison, and power includes right mindedness, so rage boosts increase one's strength and agility in detriment of his stability, for example. That is how they could improve their performance without the other types of Ki increasing, but let's use Tenshinhan again. No one in their right mind commits suicide, so his right mindedness divides by less when he uses the Shin Kikoho, which makes power (with energy included) seem much higher.

Spoiler:

Power (w/ Right Mindedness suppressing) = Strength * Agility / Right Mindedness

[Sora Saiyan]

Like the multiplier is still 50x but when you train, you develop quicker which explains why Goku surpassed a grade 2 Vegeta so much.

I believe that it's the same multiplier as when SSJ first appeared but it just increased Goku's base a lot.
There is a training section in the SEG that lists all Gokus increases in his base state over the course of Dragonball, and in that section Goku constantly being a SSJ gave the biggest increase bar the 100G training.

[buutenks]

Well when goku showed korin half his power, trunks was shocked when he sensed the amount of power goku was displaying.basically goku at 50% surpassed grade 3 trunks' ki.

Also grade 3 trunks was stronger than a suppressed perfect cell.

Full power perfect cell is a monster.He would have one shotted grade 3 trunks, fpssj goku at max power and fpssj gohan at max power in one blast.

As for the multiplier.Ye i always got that goku could go beyond the usual ssj multiplier without sacrificing speed.

[apex_pretador]

nope. It IS unlock of full power of super saiyan form. If anything, it is the limit.


SS + Powerup to max + strain = USSJ / Grade 3
SS + Power to max - Strain = FPSSJ

What makes you think it is a full unlock? That would imply it is stronger than the grade 3 form. And Trunks in his grade 3 form was stronger than Cell.

Stronger than heavily suppressed cell.

Also, I believe that they both are equally powerful, upto the max power of Super Saiyan form, the ONLY difference being strain (which also causes bulkiness).

[Pantalones]

The way I always saw it was that staying in Super Saiyan for such an extended period of time (in order to get used to it just like it was their base form and remove the strain that existed before mastering the form) was a constant strain on Goku and Gohan's bodies, which resulted in their base power increasing just from the process of their bodies growing stronger in order for the Super Saiyan level of power to seem "normal."

The strain from staying in Super Saiyan non-stop (rather than staying in base form most of the time), and the process of the body adjusting to that strain, lead to Goku and Gohan growing much stronger than they would have been doing the same training in base form only, or only using Super Saiyan sometimes and never staying in the form long enough for their body to fully get used it.

[Captain Strawberry]

nope. It IS unlock of full power of super saiyan form. If anything, it is the limit.


SS + Powerup to max + strain = USSJ / Grade 3
SS + Power to max - Strain = FPSSJ

What makes you think it is a full unlock? That would imply it is stronger than the grade 3 form. And Trunks in his grade 3 form was stronger than Cell.

Stronger than heavily suppressed cell.

Also, I believe that they both are equally powerful, upto the max power of Super Saiyan form, the ONLY difference being strain (which also causes bulkiness).

evidence that it was heavily suppressed Cell?

[Kishido]

What bothers me more is the fact that Goku still after realizing to master Super Saiyan completely has thrown this fact to side in the Buu saga...

Beerus had to remember him more or less again and that's why no SSJ2 and 3 anymore. I find the explanation by Toriyama still stupid and it makes no sense

[TheMikado]

The way I always saw it was that staying in Super Saiyan for such an extended period of time (in order to get used to it just like it was their base form and remove the strain that existed before mastering the form) was a constant strain on Goku and Gohan's bodies, which resulted in their base power increasing just from the process of their bodies growing stronger in order for the Super Saiyan level of power to seem "normal."

The strain from staying in Super Saiyan non-stop (rather than staying in base form most of the time), and the process of the body adjusting to that strain, lead to Goku and Gohan growing much stronger than they would have been doing the same training in base form only, or only using Super Saiyan sometimes and never staying in the form long enough for their body to fully get used it.

Vegeta explained pretty clearly what Full power SSJ does-

"You're missing the point. It's not about powering up. The point is that they won't have to power up, when they fight. They can use all the energy it would take to transform to increase their stamina and then, only go higher if they need to. Darn, it's so ingenious!"

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta explained pretty clearly what Full power SSJ does-

"You're missing the point. It's not about powering up. The point is that they won't have to power up, when they fight. They can use all the energy it would take to transform to increase their stamina and then, only go higher if they need to. Darn, it's so ingenious!"

It should be noted that's the dub dialogue. The original manga dialogue suggests a bit different

Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

Nothing about bolstering their stamina with the power that would be used to transform, but rather that their approach simply lets them stay in a transformed state and not worry nearly as much with the drain and strain of the form that normally accompanies the regular Ssj transformation.

[TheMikado]

Vegeta explained pretty clearly what Full power SSJ does-

"You're missing the point. It's not about powering up. The point is that they won't have to power up, when they fight. They can use all the energy it would take to transform to increase their stamina and then, only go higher if they need to. Darn, it's so ingenious!"

It should be noted that's the dub dialogue. The original manga dialogue suggests a bit different

Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

Nothing about bolstering their stamina with the power that would be used to transform, but rather that their approach simply lets them stay in a transformed state and not worry nearly as much with the drain and strain of the form that normally accompanies the regular Ssj transformation.

That's saying almost the same thing.. They don't have to waste as much energy on the transformation and they can use that energy savings to fight more efficiently.

[Darkprince410]

That's saying almost the same thing.. They don't have to waste as much energy on the transformation and they can use that energy savings to fight more efficiently.

They're not saying the same thing. The dub's dialogue is suggesting that it's just the ki that would be used to initially transform is then being converted to use for combat purposes, and isn't mentioning the ki drain of maintaining the form, which is the primary aim of the dialogue from the original version; that even if they power up to high levels, the ki drain remains incredibly small.

[TheMikado]

That's saying almost the same thing.. They don't have to waste as much energy on the transformation and they can use that energy savings to fight more efficiently.

They're not saying the same thing. The dub's dialogue is suggesting that it's just the ki that would be used to initially transform is then being converted to use for combat purposes, and isn't mentioning the ki drain of maintaining the form, which is the primary aim of the dialogue from the original version; that even if they power up to high levels, the ki drain remains incredibly small.

What? No one interpreted it like that. Everyone assumed maintaining the SSJ form caused the power drain in each in both versions. Based on your interpretation, after the initial transformation they could just pop a sensu bean and get the same effect. Literally no one interpeted that dub to mean what you just said. And everyone always assumed it was to take the stress off of maintaining the form because if that we're the case they would have been working on switching on and off SSJ rather than calmly maintaining it.