I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

[MaxZ]

I believe that the ability to "keep your ki from leaking out" can be turned on and off, resulting in wildly different power levels in base form.

so functionally, yes I believe in the two bases theory.

[LowRyder2005]

Super could potentially remind me of videogames a lot. RPGs namely. You know, when you fight Super Ultimate Dragon one day, then X hours later you enter a new area with super tough enemies and... look! "Random Goon #1" has better stats than the Super Ultimate Dragon because it's needed to make the game progress. Same here: we need Trunks to get back and have a badass spar moment with Goku? Who cares if it will make people think that after some Saitama-ish pushups, jogging or something, he'll randomly become stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base, even if SS3 Gotenks was the only one who could tangle with Mr. Terror of the Universe in DBZ.

At this point you have to ask yourself: do you prefer seeing things from an in-Universe or out-of-Universe perspective? Because it's usually this.

If it's the former: then most likely everyone from DBZ is useless now because of videogame logic.
If it's the latter: then there's a lot we're not understanding here.

However, gotta say that I'm reasonably convinced that stuff like Gotenks SS3 being inferior to Base Goku and Vegeta will eventually be demoted to "TOEI filler" in three to five years. It wasn't in the manga, after all.

In short: everyone is right in saying that it is the fans trying to rationalize what they're seeing through some complex, slightly counter-intuitive theory.
However, if you don't like the two base theory then you'd most likely have to deal with Super's horrible power scaling in your head. People who usually accept the theory follow the Occam's Razor into thinking that it's not like things become less convoluted at all without that slightly counter-intuitive theory.
Your choice will always be based on the concept of resolving to accept poor storytelling to avoid what appears to you as even poorer storytelling with both alternatives.

[Hugo Boss]

I believe that the ability to "keep your ki from leaking out" can be turned on and off, resulting in wildly different power levels in base form.

The problem is that when you don't let your ki leak out none can sense your ki. Goku's ki (vs. Freeza) could be sensed.

[Kaboom]

I hope nobody expects me to look at that big, shimmering, resplendent Super Saiyan Blue aura and believe that Goku and Vegeta's ki isn't "leaking out" when they use that form.

[Hugo Boss]

I hope nobody expects me to look at that big, shimmering, resplendent Super Saiyan Blue aura and believe that Goku and Vegeta's ki isn't "leaking out" when they use that form.

I believe that is what happens when they maintain their "normal" ki inside their body, they emit another type of ki, which can't detected by non-gods or people with ordinary power.

[Tectorman]

I think that theories are fair game when Super explains so little, and the "two base" theory is as good as any. I don't see it as particularly complicated, either; it's really just "God-Ki Usage: None, Some, All." If it helps people rationalize stuff Super presents that would otherwise be nonsense, then that's just fine.

The issue is wouldn't one of the cast pointed that something was weird with Goku fighting on par/beating Freeza with the Ki he had if he was using God-Ki too? They were quick to point out his Ki had vanished when he went SSJB. It would basically be something like:

Goku
Ki: 1
God Ki: 1,000

Freeza
Ki: 950

Kuririn: "How is Goku winning with such little Ki?"
Piccolo: "Goku must be tapping into God Ki which normal people can't sense."

Frankly I don't see the issue with their levels without a "Two-Base Theory."

This is only an issue if you think that "God Ki Power" (Goku and Vegeta using the power of their God Ki) is inseparable from "God Ki Nature" (the fact that God Ki can't be sensed by non-Gods).

DB Super episode 13 had everyone suddenly start sensing Goku's ki again, meaning that his SSJG had timed out. And the same episode establishes that Goku kept the power of the form after dropping out of said form. So clearly, God Ki Power is a separate thing from God Ki Nature.

Meaning that Goku can indeed be fighting Frieza in "God-Mode Base", using his God Ki Power while it can still be sensed by non-Gods.

[brett wheeler]

I think that theories are fair game when Super explains so little, and the "two base" theory is as good as any. I don't see it as particularly complicated, either; it's really just "God-Ki Usage: None, Some, All." If it helps people rationalize stuff Super presents that would otherwise be nonsense, then that's just fine.

The issue is wouldn't one of the cast pointed that something was weird with Goku fighting on par/beating Freeza with the Ki he had if he was using God-Ki too? They were quick to point out his Ki had vanished when he went SSJB. It would basically be something like:

Goku
Ki: 1
God Ki: 1,000

Freeza
Ki: 950

Kuririn: "How is Goku winning with such little Ki?"
Piccolo: "Goku must be tapping into God Ki which normal people can't sense."

Frankly I don't see the issue with their levels without a "Two-Base Theory."

This is only an issue if you think that "God Ki Power" (Goku and Vegeta using the power of their God Ki) is inseparable from "God Ki Nature" (the fact that God Ki can't be sensed by non-Gods).

DB Super episode 13 had everyone suddenly start sensing Goku's ki again, meaning that his SSJG had timed out. And the same episode establishes that Goku kept the power of the form after dropping out of said form. So clearly, God Ki Power is a separate thing from God Ki Nature.

Meaning that Goku can indeed be fighting Frieza in "God-Mode Base", using his God Ki Power while it can still be sensed by non-Gods.

yes but if you remember every one except vegeta thought goku was giong to lose and implied he was back to the strength of a normal ssj cause they couldnt sense his power increase and said nothing about said power increase implying they couldnt tell the difference in his power from a normal ssj

[SSJ Human]

It makes sense but the characters only need to be as strong as the plot requires them.

If the plot required Krillin training with Whis and became much stronger than Cell or even Buu (coz of plot), just chill out, relax and enjoy the story. It's just a story.

I like the idea of that happening even though it's so far from being thought of by anyone with the creative team.

[Low Tone G]

My position is that the "Two-Base Theory" should be viable, at least.

I'm not able to comprehend Goku's actual feats without a much stronger base form than his SSJ3 before BOG ritual.

He owned 4th form Freeza without any difficulty when Piccolo stated that not even Gohan stands a chance against his very 1st form.

And the BoG Arc isn't any different from the movie. Goku could withstand attacks from Beerus in his very Base form.

I think Goku can now use any form he wants from a low povered Base(more or less the same power as his BOG self before the ritual) to a SSJ3(the same legaue as his earlier SSJ3), to an insanely powered Base form(aka Saiyan beyond God), through a Super Saiyan-like form (could we call it Super Saiyan beyond God?) reaching Super Saiyan Blue(possessing God Ki).

His stronger Base form is some converted power from God Ki, but still not possessing God Ki.
His SSJ form from BOG Arc against Beerus is 50x(10X?) stronger than his Base, having the same potent power then his SSJ-God one without God Ki.
And SSJ Blue is something beyond all these(I can't not argue how much) and with God Ki.

[LightBing]

I don't believe in the two base theory, simply because it was never mentioned. Not every theory needs support from the anime and/or manga, however this one in particular does.
It's fairly important not to be explained, if us adults can't wrap our heads around it, imagine kids... Besides Mr.Toriyama motto "simplicity". It just isn't logical that such a base exists without any visual cue, that's not Mr.Toriyama way. Even Mystic Gohan was distinct enough from regular Gohan.
While the anime is bad a distinguishing SSJ from SSJ2, in the manga it's very clear. Mr.Toriyama is very explicit in this regard.

The confusion in the anime, I blame the writing. It's all over the place. Much more reasonable to go with this explanation than this convoluted theory.

In the manga, it's confirmed it doesn't exist. Look at Goku versus Hit. He goes Base to SSJ to SSJG to SSJB. Can't be more clear than that.

[Tectorman]

The issue is wouldn't one of the cast pointed that something was weird with Goku fighting on par/beating Freeza with the Ki he had if he was using God-Ki too? They were quick to point out his Ki had vanished when he went SSJB. It would basically be something like:

Goku
Ki: 1
God Ki: 1,000

Freeza
Ki: 950

Kuririn: "How is Goku winning with such little Ki?"
Piccolo: "Goku must be tapping into God Ki which normal people can't sense."

Frankly I don't see the issue with their levels without a "Two-Base Theory."

This is only an issue if you think that "God Ki Power" (Goku and Vegeta using the power of their God Ki) is inseparable from "God Ki Nature" (the fact that God Ki can't be sensed by non-Gods).

DB Super episode 13 had everyone suddenly start sensing Goku's ki again, meaning that his SSJG had timed out. And the same episode establishes that Goku kept the power of the form after dropping out of said form. So clearly, God Ki Power is a separate thing from God Ki Nature.

Meaning that Goku can indeed be fighting Frieza in "God-Mode Base", using his God Ki Power while it can still be sensed by non-Gods.

yes but if you remember every one except vegeta thought goku was giong to lose and implied he was back to the strength of a normal ssj cause they couldnt sense his power increase and said nothing about said power increase implying they couldnt tell the difference in his power from a normal ssj

Okay, if we take that as the implication, then that still answers Hitiro's question. Against Beerus, Goku went from SSJG with all of his ki "unsensable" to SSJ, still with all the power as before, but only exhibiting the normal power of a SSJ as far as everyone but Vegeta was concerned. The Z Fighters thought he was immediately screwed, and he wasn't (not immediately, anyway). So if he then does the same thing versus Frieza, none of the Z Fighters would get confused by what was going on.

Goku
Ki: 1
God Ki: 1,000

Frie
Ki: 950

Kuririn: "How is Goku winning with such little Ki? Oh, right, now I remember. He's doing the same thing now that he was doing when he went back to SSJ against Beerus. We all thought he would immediately lose then, but he must've still been tapping into that God Ki that we couldn't sense."
Piccolo: "Yes, and he's obviously doing the same thing now."

...

Except, I'm not so sure that the Z Fighters' being sure that Goku would lose is due to his ki suddenly being "sensable" AND that "sensable" ki being back down to normal levels. Could his "sensable" ki being back down to normal levels be the implication? Maybe. But so could be the following:

Let's do this in order. Goku went through the ritual with the wrong number of Saiyans and became stronger than he ever had, but this was deemed a failure because, regardless of how much stronger he got, he wasn't a SSJG. Then they redid the ritual and Goku became a SSJG for real. His ki is "unsensable" and the Z Fighters (besides Vegeta) have no idea how strong he is.

So when he goes back to SSJ and keeps his God Ki Power, and if the Z Fighters (again, besides Vegeta) could sense all of that power, then they would still think that Goku was going to lose. Why? Because they don't know how the power they're sensing now compares to the power he had as a SSJG or to the power that Beerus still has.

For example, if they sense, say, 1,000 Ki from Goku as a "God-Remnant SSJ", they have no way of knowing that SSJG wasn't 2,000 or 3,000 or even 50,000. They have no way of knowing that Beerus isn't still at 2,000 or 3,000 or 50,000. And if that's the case (and they don't know it isn't), then Goku would be screwed, which is exactly the sentiment that they convey.

Yes, we, Beerus, and Vegeta know that Goku kept it all, but the Z Fighters only know that however strong Goku is, he's no longer the one thing they think can beat Beerus, a SSJG whose strength can't be sensed. As far as they're concerned, Goku's only slightly ahead now of where he was after the first failed ritual: really, really powerful, but not their one hope. The ki they sensed out of Goku after he dropped to "God-Remnant SSJ" doesn't have to be back to normal levels for them to despair that he will immediately lose.

[Bullza]

The entire theory is complete nonsense. There's nothing to support it at all and the only reason such a theory exists is so fans can have an excuse for why some characters are stronger than they think they should logically be.

"I don't think it makes sense for Trunks to be so strong so Goku must have it switched off!"

It's not something that has been mentioned in the movies, the anime, the manga or any guidebooks or interviews. It's not a thing and it will surely never become a thing. A guy who tries to keep the series simple for kids to enjoy will not then introduce something completely unnecessary and over complicated like that without any explanation of it.

That's about it.

[brett wheeler]

This is only an issue if you think that "God Ki Power" (Goku and Vegeta using the power of their God Ki) is inseparable from "God Ki Nature" (the fact that God Ki can't be sensed by non-Gods).

DB Super episode 13 had everyone suddenly start sensing Goku's ki again, meaning that his SSJG had timed out. And the same episode establishes that Goku kept the power of the form after dropping out of said form. So clearly, God Ki Power is a separate thing from God Ki Nature.

Meaning that Goku can indeed be fighting Frieza in "God-Mode Base", using his God Ki Power while it can still be sensed by non-Gods.

yes but if you remember every one except vegeta thought goku was giong to lose and implied he was back to the strength of a normal ssj cause they couldnt sense his power increase and said nothing about said power increase implying they couldnt tell the difference in his power from a normal ssj

Okay, if we take that as the implication, then that still answers Hitiro's question. Against Beerus, Goku went from SSJG with all of his ki "unsensable" to SSJ, still with all the power as before, but only exhibiting the normal power of a SSJ as far as everyone but Vegeta was concerned. The Z Fighters thought he was immediately screwed, and he wasn't (not immediately, anyway). So if he then does the same thing versus Frieza, none of the Z Fighters would get confused by what was going on.

Goku
Ki: 1
God Ki: 1,000

Frie
Ki: 950

Kuririn: "How is Goku winning with such little Ki? Oh, right, now I remember. He's doing the same thing now that he was doing when he went back to SSJ against Beerus. We all thought he would immediately lose then, but he must've still been tapping into that God Ki that we couldn't sense."
Piccolo: "Yes, and he's obviously doing the same thing now."

...

Except, I'm not so sure that the Z Fighters' being sure that Goku would lose is due to his ki suddenly being "sensable" AND that "sensable" ki being back down to normal levels. Could his "sensable" ki being back down to normal levels be the implication? Maybe. But so could be the following:

Let's do this in order. Goku went through the ritual with the wrong number of Saiyans and became stronger than he ever had, but this was deemed a failure because, regardless of how much stronger he got, he wasn't a SSJG. Then they redid the ritual and Goku became a SSJG for real. His ki is "unsensable" and the Z Fighters (besides Vegeta) have no idea how strong he is.

So when he goes back to SSJ and keeps his God Ki Power, and if the Z Fighters (again, besides Vegeta) could sense all of that power, then they would still think that Goku was going to lose. Why? Because they don't know how the power they're sensing now compares to the power he had as a SSJG or to the power that Beerus still has.

For example, if they sense, say, 1,000 Ki from Goku as a "God-Remnant SSJ", they have no way of knowing that SSJG wasn't 2,000 or 3,000 or even 50,000. They have no way of knowing that Beerus isn't still at 2,000 or 3,000 or 50,000. And if that's the case (and they don't know it isn't), then Goku would be screwed, which is exactly the sentiment that they convey.

Yes, we, Beerus, and Vegeta know that Goku kept it all, but the Z Fighters only know that however strong Goku is, he's no longer the one thing they think can beat Beerus, a SSJG whose strength can't be sensed. As far as they're concerned, Goku's only slightly ahead now of where he was after the first failed ritual: really, really powerful, but not their one hope. The ki they sensed out of Goku after he dropped to "God-Remnant SSJ" doesn't have to be back to normal levels for them to despair that he will immediately lose.

well youre right in the regard as they wouldnt know how strong goku was compared to ssg so maby they worried over that but then in rof they said specifically goku is stronger than he has ever been and implied by a lot, they have all sensed ssj3 and knew that as goku max besides god but they said his base was way stronger than goku max ( ssj3 ) and then after rof never said anything about ssj goku being weaker than base goku in rof nor did beerus say anything about a second base goku could have used to mop the floor with the entire u6 team he only implied goku was holding back witch is very true weather its two base or he didnt use other forms beerus knew he had, also in the black goku arc if the god ki base goku is sensible why not use that agianst trunks he used ssj3 cause it was a sensible lvl while ssg or ssb was not. Goku to save stamina and strength always tries to not transform unless necessary if he has a base that has all this power why not stay at it he is in it constantly while training and shown to have no sighs of stamina issues so why not stay in it so its easy to mop the floor with everybody but for arguments sake lets say its because goku is a dumbass who holds back ( witch I will agree with ) vegeta isnt so why wouldnt he use it all the time he isnt as stupid as goku and shows to use his full power from the start so he should always be using it yet he doesnt. While I do not agree with the 2 base theory I do not believe in the base the strength of ssg theory either I believe there bases at best rival super vegito witch is far far far below the realm of the gods and they can go ssg at will now by holding regular ki in and emitting god ki and they go ssb by holding there regular ssj ki in and infusing it with god ki and releasing it agian this also follows the explanation of " this is a ssj of a saiyan with the power of a ssg " I just interpreted it as this is the normal ssj of saiyan infused with ssg witch also explains why its not stamina efficient like stated in the anime and manga ( altho the manga went over board ) because it uses two different transformations to make one new one witch would also make it more like this

base goku 10
ssg goku 1,000
ssb goku 1,500

base trunks 8

beerus unknown cause who the fuck knows


while you probably disagree and you have the right to I personally disagree with any theory that hasnt been remotely said implied or even hinted at because while not every theory has to be said stuff like the 2 base theory is usually said or atleast implied in some form or fasion

[RandomGuy96]

The entire theory is complete nonsense. There's nothing to support it at all and the only reason such a theory exists is so fans can have an excuse for why some characters are stronger than they think they should logically be.

What about Gohan [Cell Games] > Gohan [Black Goku arc] ~ Piccolo ~ base Goku > SS3 Gotenks apparently now being a thing?

[sintzu]

To find the answer we'll have to go back to the beginning :

In BOG we find out that Ssjg can only be reached through the ritual and after Goku fights for awhile he finds out that he lost the form but his base and Ssj were just as strong which implied he didn't need Ssj anymore and could just fight normally in his base.

After the battle Vegeta says next time they need it he'll do the ritual but why would they need the ritual again if Goku kept the power ? and why would Vegeta say it like that if Goku didn't need to do it again ?

However, in RF we find out that Goku did keep it but not only that, Vegeta reached it on his own and they both showed off a new form, it's not actually new, it's Ssj with the power of Ssjg so now we find out that when a Saiyan absorbs Ssjg power, their normal Ssj turns Blue but both of these developments go completely against what was established in BOG, the ritual was suppose to be the key to unlocking Ssjg's power and Ssj didn't change when Goku used it with his Ssjg powers against Beerus.

Finally we have the Champa arc, it turns out that Goku and Vegeta can use Ssj alongside the Blue form but wasn't it stated in RF that they were the same form ? so how are they able to use both when the previous arc established them as one form ? And what about Ssjg in the manga, wasn't it stated that his base and ssj were equal to it so why would he need to use it and should it even be possible ? Ssjg seemed like a temporary form Goku took on while his body was absorbing its power but now it's its own form that can be accessed at will ?

What about the 2 bases ? after looking at all the material that lead to this question, I can say without a doubt that the writers themselves don't even know cause they're just doing whatever they want without thinking twice about it and how it lines up with previously established material.

[Ajay]

Brett Wheeler, while I'm sure you have interesting things to contribute to this forum, many of your posts (including the ones in this thread) are borderline incomprehensible.

Proper capitalisation, comma usage, and previewing your posts prior to submission will go a long way in tidying up your posts, and helping others understand what you're trying to say.

If English isn't your native language, then by all means let us know as we are lenient in that regard, but otherwise please rereview the forum rules -- in particular rule #2 -- before posting again.

Thanks!

[TheMikado]

I believe that the ability to "keep your ki from leaking out" can be turned on and off, resulting in wildly different power levels in base form.

The problem is that when you don't let your ki leak out none can sense your ki. Goku's ki (vs. Freeza) could be sensed.

Has the Ki leaking thing even been referenced lately or did that go the way of the dodo and get retconned like the 6-10-15 scale? I ask because it doesn't functionally make much sense nor is it explain as others have pointed out with the crazy aura. Also does that mean SSG also doesn't leak ki naturally?

[brett wheeler]

Brett Wheeler, while I'm sure you have interesting things to contribute to this forum, many of your posts (including the ones in this thread) are borderline incomprehensible.

Proper capitalisation, comma usage, and previewing your posts prior to submission will go a long way in tidying up your posts, and helping others understand what you're trying to say.

If English isn't your native language, then by all means let us know as we are lenient in that regard, but otherwise please rereview the forum rules -- in particular rule #2 -- before posting again.

Thanks!

english is my native language I just have problems with sentence structure I'm sorry I will try to fix it I just have never been good at it and and up making more mistakes than needed trying to but I will try to fix it thanks and agian sorry

[Bullza]

The entire theory is complete nonsense. There's nothing to support it at all and the only reason such a theory exists is so fans can have an excuse for why some characters are stronger than they think they should logically be.

What about Gohan [Cell Games] > Gohan [Black Goku arc] ~ Piccolo ~ base Goku > SS3 Gotenks apparently now being a thing?

What makes you think that? Goku is stronger than any of those guys.

More like Base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks > Base Gohan (RoF arc) > Piccolo = Base Gohan (U6 arc) > Base Gohan (Black arc)

[sintzu]

More like Base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks > Piccolo > Baby pan > Farmer with a shotgun > future Bulma's corpse >>>>>>> Gohan (Super)

Fixed.