I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

[ChiefWamsutta]

I was talking to someone about a week ago about the Two-Base Theory. We had differing views -- he didn't believe it existed, and I believed that it did. After a heated discussion we both calmed down and I asked him straight-up what was his main reason for not believing in the Two-Base Theory.

He said that he felt Goku's and Vegeta's bases COULD become as strong as a Super Saiyan God in the months of training with Whis. I stated that it seemed easier to follow the belief that Whis taught them to keep their God Ki inside their base forms and that way have the power of a Super Saiyan God (Saiyan beyond God).

I want to hear from each of you the main reason why you are for or against the Two-Base Theory.



***BUT I DO NOT want my thread to turn into a heated debate. Small discussions are fine, but don't continue replying over and over again.***
***State your main reason and maybe give a quick comment.***

EDIT: I don't want to act like a moderator when it isn't my place, but my thread seems to have divulged into a debate rather than each person stating their personal opinions. I really was hoping this wouldn't happen. If everyone could please respect the focus of the topic it would go a long way.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I think it's a convoluted fan rationalization to try to make sense of the messed up powerscaling in Super.

[Nejishiki]

It's the same as always with the warriors: they fluctuate their strength as needed. I don't recall any instance of the script bringing attention that Goku and Vegeta could not be sensed. In fact, wasn't it a plot point in Resurrection F that Goku couldn't be sensed the moment he transformed into Super Saiyan Blue? He was fighting a stronger Freeza by adjusting his strength as needed, so I definitely cannot make sense that he has, "two base forms", from that information. It would appear that he can raise his battle power as needed just as he had done in the original series.

[Kaboom]

I think that theories are fair game when Super explains so little, and the "two base" theory is as good as any. I don't see it as particularly complicated, either; it's really just "God-Ki Usage: None, Some, All." If it helps people rationalize stuff Super presents that would otherwise be nonsense, then that's just fine.

[Hugo Boss]

I think that's what happens when you have multiple writers contributing to the story. The plot itself doesn't give any direct implication that Goku has two different base forms. Not even a mention of god ki usage. Actually, when Goku transformed into Super Saiyan against Frost, I started not believing the theory, because there would be no point in transforming if you can power-up to higher levels without altering your appearance. Super Saiyan God being a thing again doesn't help either. For now, my opinion is that all Goku forms are enhanced, but they keep the original powerscale from the old days when it comes to Super Saiyan.

[Khin]

Two-Base theory are nothing more than just a theory made by Power Level enthusiasts to try and make sense of their Battle Power list. Even though its obvious that Toei writers doesn't really give a crap about Power Levels, Power gains, etc; as evidenced in some fillers in DBZ, particularly in the Other World Tournament Arc and Boo Arc fillers. And GT too.

From what i have noticed. People use the theory as a way to pointlessly make the Universe 6 fighters weak, and not accepting that certain characters became way stronger than before. While applying their made-up rules of "A needs to be X% stronger than B in order for A to win" and "B needs X years worth of hard training in order for him to become X times stronger" in the process.

The main reason why i don't believe the theory is because is was never implied anywhere. And just too big to not explain or state.

[Tectorman]

I came up with my own individual understanding of the two-base theory from looking at some of the discussions here, but none of those discussions had yet coalesced into a claim of Goku or Vegeta having two bases.

I took those nascent theories about what the heck was going on in Super, ran them through my head until they made sense, and was surprised to discover that it looked like I was claiming that Goku and Vegeta were operating as though they had a normal mode and a god ki mode. Which seemed really convoluted at the time, so I never mentioned it.

Which made it all the more surprising that other people were coming up with the same thing. Multiple people, observing the same material, and without any kind of backchannels to "get their stories straight", have individually come up with a similar convoluted theory. That tells me there's something to the notion.

After all, when you have multiple witnesses at a crime scene saying the same thing, either they've taken steps to say the same thing, or it's what happened. This poster can confirm he didn't take steps to make the same claim as other "two-base" proponents. Ergo, there is something to the theory.

[buutenks]

I take it as it is shown. No 2 base theory was mentioned or even hinted at in universe. So i go by what was shown. As in that base goku/vegeta>ssj3 gotenks, and in turn all who are above base goku are above ssj3 gotenks.

So basically all u6 fighters, except botamo are above ssj3 gotenks at least, and so is trunks.

Every new arcs makes all characters more powerful than in their previous arc, and new ones also.

While i understand why some dont like it, since buu saga has been for 20 years now, and these new comers suddenly are more powerful than top tier dbz characters.

But that is how it is.

My Power tier would be as follows:

current ssjb/hit/golden freeza>>>>>ssj3 goku>ssj2 goku/vegeta>ssj2 trunks>ssj goku/vegeta>Mageta>ssj trunks>ssj cabba>FF frost>base goku/vegeta>baby pan(lol)>current gohan/current piccolo>ssj3 gotenks>base trunks>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Botamo=id say he cant be more powerful than namek saga freeza, so hes proly around that level, since vados brought him to the tournament, so he cant be to weak.

Reason why i place base trunks below ssj3 gotenks is because when he woke up and attack goku, he had the intent to kill and goku just grabbed his hand with easy. Plus, even as ssj2, goku clearly had the advantage over trunks.

[Lord Beerus]

An absolutely ridiculous and convoluted theory brought about by the power level obsessed part of the fanbase in attempt to try to desperately make sense of the already fucked up power scaling in the Super anime.

[Captain Strawberry]

It makes sense but the characters only need to be as strong as the plot requires them.

If the plot required Krillin training with Whis and became much stronger than Cell or even Buu (coz of plot), just chill out, relax and enjoy the story. It's just a story.

[apex_pretador]

Short answer - Trash.

Detailed answer - It is something not even remotely hinted at all.

According to SBG theory supporters (2 base theory is a garbage name) , goku used SBG against freeza, not against frost. However, by that logic, SS goku (vs frost) < base goku (vs freeza) and no one commented on that, not even krillin did it. This is too big of a point to not be commented.
Also, as seen many times, goku and vegeta prefer to use base form over SS & SSB in DBsuper. Despite this, both goku and vegeta were forced to use the yellow forms several times.
Against trunks, if goku could've powered up as much as black in base form, he;d have done it. Or if he could've fought black in base form, he would've done it like he did it against hit for several moments.

[Kishido]

It's BS and that is the worst thing about Super... WE HAVE TO make theories like this bad one cuz Super tells us nothing and instead is making decisions, which open more questions than answers.

Base Goku against Final Form Frieza being stronger while Gohan was owned by 1st form. Later Super Saiyan was used against the likes as Frost and Magetta amd yeah even Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

On the other hand Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was owned with ease.

Simply said... I gave up looking for explanations or something. TOEI/Toriyama are just doing what they think is cool. I doubt all arcs and fights have been thought through that much or they would have realized how bad it is.

[TheMikado]

I came up with my own individual understanding of the two-base theory from looking at some of the discussions here, but none of those discussions had yet coalesced into a claim of Goku or Vegeta having two bases.

I took those nascent theories about what the heck was going on in Super, ran them through my head until they made sense, and was surprised to discover that it looked like I was claiming that Goku and Vegeta were operating as though they had a normal mode and a god ki mode. Which seemed really convoluted at the time, so I never mentioned it.

Which made it all the more surprising that other people were coming up with the same thing. Multiple people, observing the same material, and without any kind of backchannels to "get their stories straight", have individually come up with a similar convoluted theory. That tells me there's something to the notion.

After all, when you have multiple witnesses at a crime scene saying the same thing, either they've taken steps to say the same thing, or it's what happened. This poster can confirm he didn't take steps to make the same claim as other "two-base" proponents. Ergo, there is something to the theory.

THIS

Its one thing is just some random poster thought it up. Its another thing when people outside the site think the same thing, plus videogame material with Saiyan Beyond God, etc. Reenforce that theory.

That being said, as I said before, the fact that SSG is still present in the manga seems to indicate that there SHOULD be a form which utilizes God ki but not SSJ. At this point if you do not believe in that, then you believe that Goku and Vegeta can only access God ki in their SSJ form, which in my opinion makes even less sense.

Anyway, as I have said before I will not call it the two base form as people have problems with it. I'm just calling it "God mode" or some other non offensive name, but basically I feel the way Super is written God power can be turned on or off in any form of a Saiyan. Base or otherwise.

[ryan s]

I don`t see the need for it.

Vegeta was as strong as SSG goku without God ki (episode 22 he makes a an observation about god ki something he would have already known if he had it)

I think it is just fan made, i don`t think people have came up with the same idea but just heard it from many different places ie Dragon Ball Wiki and even Dragon Ball Heros says something about saiyan beyond god i have been told

[Xeztin]

I believe in the two-base but a little bit differently than everyone else I suppose. I believe that the Super Saiyan God form itself IS the second base, I do not agree that Goku in his normal base has the power of a SSG nor can he turn it on and off without taking the form of SSG. I will say that in the BOG arc, when Goku was supposed to "Absorb" the power of SSG that it was temporarily but he did gain "God Ki" permanently which he can only bring out with Super Saiyan Blue or SSG itself if you count the manga. I also believe that there are two ways to obtain God Ki, through the ritual or through training with someone like Whis who is a veteran of God Ki. Goku and Vegeta both learned how to use their God Ki via Super Saiyan Blue through training with Whis. As far as the RoF arc goes, Freeza's first and true form should only have been a little stronger than what he was on Namek because I believe his Golden Form is not a multiplier. Gohan's base is weak which makes SSJ weak and that would explain the one shots from Freeza as are Trunks and Goten. In the Champa arc I follow the manga's explanation of the Goku/Hit/Vegeta mess. This is my theory at the moment but in other words,

Anime: Goku cannot use God Ki in Base.
Manga: Goku CAN use God Ki in Base, but the result is taking the form of SSG.

[Rip the Jacker]

I think it's made up nonsense as always with dbz fans.

[Anime Kitten]

Goku and Vegeta can turn their God Ki on and off. Basically, I believe the theory to an extent. They have a normal base mode, and a God base mode (or Saiyan Beyond God if you prefer).

Even more basically, they don't have two bases, but two base modes.

[brett wheeler]

I believe in the two base theory to some extent I believe there bases are ridiculously strong ( about buuhan-ssj vegito any where between that is fine ) and they can go ssj 1-3 they can turn on god ki but I believe if they do they become a ssg witch they had no need to do in the anime yet and once they infuse ssg to ssj they become ssb ( witch I'm guessing is a lot harder than it sounds ) they may be two different ways of telling it but the fact toriyama green lighted both means both can happen in the same continuum so he still believes ssg can happen and is a transformation but also believes ssb kk*10 can happen as well its complicated but toriyama himself has to believe both continuum's are possible but where used differently I am sorry if this doesnt make sense I'm not good at conveying my messages over the internet I'm much better in person lol so agian sorry but if you can understand it whats your all's opinions on this theory

[Hitiro]

I think that theories are fair game when Super explains so little, and the "two base" theory is as good as any. I don't see it as particularly complicated, either; it's really just "God-Ki Usage: None, Some, All." If it helps people rationalize stuff Super presents that would otherwise be nonsense, then that's just fine.

The issue is wouldn't one of the cast pointed that something was weird with Goku fighting on par/beating Freeza with the Ki he had if he was using God-Ki too? They were quick to point out his Ki had vanished when he went SSJB. It would basically be something like:

Goku
Ki: 1
God Ki: 1,000

Freeza
Ki: 950

Kuririn: "How is Goku winning with such little Ki?"
Piccolo: "Goku must be tapping into God Ki which normal people can't sense."

Frankly I don't see the issue with their levels without a "Two-Base Theory."

[mikey4111]

The only reason I think they have two bases is cause of that tournament. Piccolo blocking punches from Frost, and Cabba being even with Vegeta, cause I refuse to believe Cabba > fused Ssj3.

But I think it's just Super having a really messed up power scale. It's laughable how little effort they try to keep the power levels consistent. Heck, there's no effort at all.