Idea: how Toriyama could save the franchise with a third movie.

[Deathbringer]

I think Toriyama needs a co-writer or at least someone to evaluate his story ideas (maybe Toyotaro could fill this role?) I say this because BOG turned out great because it was Toriyama building off of an already existing concept and had the added touch of having all the characters feel like they were in character (mainly Goku though) because the original writer was involved.

However, RF gave Toriyama control from the beginning and it led to a shockingly uninspired and ultimately pointless story despite having charming character interactions and once again having that feeling that the original author was involved with at least some of the dialogue (specifically most of Freeza's lines). In my opinion I think that Toriyama may have been trying to appeal to fans that love action when writing RF and the fight against the 1000 Freeza soldiers was great but the plot overall felt like Toriyama was trying to play to fan expectations which is really weird because a lot of the best moments in the original manga were the moments when he went against what the readers expected to happen.

Sorry for the mini review of RF but basically in my view Toriyama needs someone else to critique his story throughout the production of the movie (kind of like a WSJ editor when you think about it) which would make him put more effort into it.

Also on a side note if he plans to write any more material he should really go past the ending of the manga so he's not as creatively restricted to make everything match up to how it is at the end of the story.

[Desassina]

Thanks Deathbringer, you have exposed more than I could, and I agree with you.

[Captain Strawberry]

The franchise doesn't need saving. Yes, ROF doesn't have the best story telling but even if you think it doesn't contribute to the main story of Dragon ball, it's still a fun event that takes place in the lore.

Like if I read that oh this happened in the lore of Dragon ball, the emperor Frieza get's revived than I'd be like, I'd like to actually see that!


The franchise doesn't need saving, Super sells really well and is extremely popular in Japan at this moment in time; top 10 watched anime in Japan and that's quite big for Japan having over thousands and thousands of anime.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I think Toriyama needs a co-writer or at least someone to evaluate his story ideas (maybe Toyotaro could fill this role?) I say this because BOG turned out great because it was Toriyama building off of an already existing concept and had the added touch of having all the characters feel like they were in character (mainly Goku though) because the original writer was involved.

If Toriyama were to have an assistant writer with him it should NOT be Toyotaro. Despite me liking some things that he has done in DBSuper manga, for all intents and purpose Toyotaro (co)writing a Dragon Ball story would be the equivalent of a biased fanboy writing a Dragon Ball fan fiction. That may have sound rude but I would first prioritize a good writer over someone knowledgeable in Dragon Ball.

[Captain Strawberry]

I think Toriyama needs a co-writer or at least someone to evaluate his story ideas (maybe Toyotaro could fill this role?) I say this because BOG turned out great because it was Toriyama building off of an already existing concept and had the added touch of having all the characters feel like they were in character (mainly Goku though) because the original writer was involved.

If Toriyama were to have an assistant writer with him it should NOT be Toyotaro. Despite me liking some things that he has done in DBSuper manga, for all intents and purpose Toyotaro (co)writing a Dragon Ball story would be the equivalent of a biased fanboy writing a Dragon Ball fan fiction. That may have sound rude but I would first prioritize a good writer over someone knowledgeable in Dragon Ball.

Can you please expand on the biased fanboy part, I don't see anything particularly wrong that in pertaining to writing. Besides, it would have to go through editors.

[ABED]

In my opinion I think that Toriyama may have been trying to appeal to fans that love action when writing RF and the fight against the 1000 Freeza soldiers was great

The reason I don't think it worked is because of that fight. The Z fighters are FAR stronger than any of Freeza's troops. This isn't even about power levels, but someone should've pointed out that it didn't make a lick of sense. Piccolo had some trouble against a soldier who was said to rival Zarbon and Dodoria! Piccolo's power by the end of Z dwarfed even Freeza's power back on Namek. Things like this interfere with the action, since the logic of it is thrown out the window.

[Kanassa]

I think Toriyama needs a co-writer or at least someone to evaluate his story ideas (maybe Toyotaro could fill this role?) I say this because BOG turned out great because it was Toriyama building off of an already existing concept and had the added touch of having all the characters feel like they were in character (mainly Goku though) because the original writer was involved.

If Toriyama were to have an assistant writer with him it should NOT be Toyotaro. Despite me liking some things that he has done in DBSuper manga, for all intents and purpose Toyotaro (co)writing a Dragon Ball story would be the equivalent of a biased fanboy writing a Dragon Ball fan fiction. That may have sound rude but I would first prioritize a good writer over someone knowledgeable in Dragon Ball.

Can you please expand on the biased fanboy part, I don't see anything particularly wrong that in pertaining to writing. Besides, it would have to go through editors.

I think it's because Toyotaro worked on a fan manager once or something *Shrugs*

[Captain Strawberry]

I think it's because Toyotaro worked on a fan manager once or something *Shrugs*

I'm saying if he's a big fan than what's wrong with a fanboy writing the series? That means he knows his research and Dragon ball.

[sintzu]

I miss the days when we could say DB was a success because of its good quality or when we could compare it to other Shonen.

Yep, and then Z came along.

Z is mainly why the franchise got as big as it did and understandably so, it had great writing, characters and action.

Unfortunately it had pacing issues (which Kai fixed) but the wait was always worth it.

[Kanassa]

I miss the days when we could say DB was a success because of its good quality or when we could compare it to other Shonen.

Yep, and then Z came along.

Z is mainly why the franchise got as big as it did and understandably so, it had great writing, characters and action.

Unfortunately it had pacing issues (which Kai fixed) but the wait was always worth it.

I'd never hold Dragonball as an exmple of good writing, and the character are... Likable. THough the action is it's best part. It was especially bad with how it went about character development, the development usually doesn't stick.

[ABED]

I'd never hold Dragonball as an exmple of good writing, and the character are... Likable. THough the action is it's best part. It was especially bad with how it went about character development, the development usually doesn't stick.

They're very likeable, for the most part, and what development didn't stick?

Z is mainly why the franchise got as big as it did and understandably so, it had great writing, characters and action.

Popularity doesn't equal quality.

[Kanassa]

I'd never hold Dragonball as an exmple of good writing, and the character are... Likable. THough the action is it's best part. It was especially bad with how it went about character development, the development usually doesn't stick.

They're very likeable, for the most part, and what development didn't stick?

The biggest one is Vegeta, which is strange since the show tries to develop him the most, just for him to forget it. Majin Vegeta especially.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Z is mainly why the franchise got as big as it did and understandably so, it had great writing, characters and action.

While the second half of the original series had good writing at points but overall compared to other series or even it's first half it was pretty weak imo. The action is what made it memorable.

- Travis

[ABED]

The biggest one is Vegeta, which is strange since the show tries to develop him the most, just for him to forget it. Majin Vegeta especially.

It did stick. Him becoming Majin Vegeta didn't diminish his character development nor did it show that it didn't stick, especially considering what came after he died.

While the second half of the original series had good writing at points but overall compared to other series or even it's first half it was pretty weak imo. The action is what made it memorable.

The action wouldn't have been all that interesting had it not had characters that weren't interesting and even early Dragon Ball had some great fights like Goku vs. Jackie Chun or Goku vs. Tao Pai Pai that put many of Z's to shame.

[TheGreatness25]

Why do fans pretend that Z "sucked?" I don't get it. Did it really suck or do you just prefer Dragon Ball over Z? Just because I like Captain America Civil War more than Winter Soldier, doesn't mean that Winter Soldier sucked. If you really didn't like Z, then I'm sorry, but I don't think that most people here share that sentiment. And what is with this trend of talking down Z? Is that the latest "look at me, I'm a realer fan" thing? First it was the Japanese version over the dub, then it was the manga over the anime, and now it's DB over Z? I'm not saying that's your reasoning, but I do see this popping up pretty often now.

[Kanassa]

Why do fans pretend that Z "sucked?" I don't get it. Did it really suck or do you just prefer Dragon Ball over Z? Just because I like Captain America Civil War more than Winter Soldier, doesn't mean that Winter Soldier sucked. If you really didn't like Z, then I'm sorry, but I don't think that most people here share that sentiment. And what is with this trend of talking down Z? Is that the latest "look at me, I'm a realer fan" thing? First it was the Japanese version over the dub, then it was the manga over the anime, and now it's DB over Z? I'm not saying that's your reasoning, but I do see this popping up pretty often now.

Why is fans speaking of their dislike of partcular parts of Z or Z as a whole 'pretending' that Z sucked?

[TheGreatness25]

Agh I guess it wasn't in this thread where a statement like "Z ruined the franchise" came up. I've seen it in several places (can't guarantee that it was here as I'm on two other forums). I guess I misread something. I retract my comment (for this particular thread).

[sintzu]

And what is with this trend of talking down Z? Is that the latest "look at me, I'm a realer fan" thing? First it was the Japanese version over the dub, then it was the manga over the anime, and now it's DB over Z?

Another one is "people who started with DB are better fans than people who started with Z".

Popularity doesn't equal quality.

It wouldn't have gotten that popular if it didn't have quality.

[TheGreatness25]

Well... Let's be real -- It's a comic/cartoon. If you like it, you like it. If not, then you don't. Not everything needs to be perfect or well-written or be a grand masterpiece to be popular or liked. Dragon Ball isn't trying to pass for some great epic mystical thing; that's us as fans claiming that it is. Look at Ed, Edd, and Eddy for example (don't know why it came to me but whatever lol) -- It's terrible, absolutely horrible. It's not particularly written well. And yet, it's popular and has a fan base. So just because something isn't "bulletproof" doesn't mean that it cannot be enjoyed and loved. I think the fans project their own internal feelings onto Dragon Ball and then are sometimes disappointed when the series doesn't live up to our expectations. Like Super. It's true, it's a children's cartoon. So why are my feelings hurt that it looks silly as all hell is beyond me.

[ABED]

Why do fans pretend that Z "sucked?" I don't get it. Did it really suck or do you just prefer Dragon Ball over Z? Just because I like Captain America Civil War more than Winter Soldier, doesn't mean that Winter Soldier sucked. If you really didn't like Z, then I'm sorry, but I don't think that most people here share that sentiment. And what is with this trend of talking down Z? Is that the latest "look at me, I'm a realer fan" thing? First it was the Japanese version over the dub, then it was the manga over the anime, and now it's DB over Z? I'm not saying that's your reasoning, but I do see this popping up pretty often now.

That's a strawman argument. I never said that or even implied that. This isn't about being a realer fan, but far too many look at Dragon Ball as inferior for false reasons. They view all of DB as being like the first arc. Someone even went so far to say the two Piccolo arcs are essentially DBZ. So in other words, DB is light and fluffy, DBZ is action packed, the Piccolo arcs are action packed and not light and fluffy, ergo they are de facto DBZ.

Another one is "people who started with DB are better fans than people who started with Z".

It wouldn't have gotten that popular if it didn't have quality.

You inferred that all on your own. I don't think those that start with DB are better, but I do think it's best to start a story from the beginning. DBZ has some quality writing and fighting, but there are a million counterexamples that will poke a hole in the argument that quality = popular.