What material is included in Super but is NOT by Toriyama?

[VegettoEX]

It's literally just the script for the first episode; like, the words the voice actors say aloud. Nothing about it says Akira Toriyama specifically.

Can we please not use that individual as a source for anything ever?

[Khin]

I remember that. Not sure if it was confirmed that it was written by Mr.Toriyama. The main differences were what you said about the timeline and Goten being in kindergarten, which honestly sound very Toriyama like to forget his age. If memory doesn't fail me, it's buried in the announcement thread.

That old script is still the reason I think we're not more than three years past the Boo Arc and not following BoG timeline.

The guy who put that Toriyama thingy is GojitaAF, who i don't know if reliable or not. But the time-frame provided in that script actually makes the Vegeta taking Trunks to the park episode sensible, explains why Trunks, Goten, and Marron still looks like kids and Oob just being born. Although the problem is that it entirely contradicts Pan's age.

EDIT:
As said above, looks nothing specific said about Toriyama after all. Nice to have a confirmation.

[Helios518]

Go to chapter 4 page 11 of the super manga and you see the universal punch and shockwave.

I think we he is trying to say is that because in BOG that did not occur it is something that doesn't come from Toriyama or at least a strong possibility of that.

I'm mainly replying to OP' saying "copy vegeta and the universe thing are not in the manga, ".

[THEGOKU]

In keeping on topic with who is involved with what. If this is supposed to take place between the end of the Kid Buu fight and the End of Z (I read that when the show first began to air I have no source to confirm) I would imagine that Toriyama must oversee everything that goes on which could be why characters like Trunks and Goten are still roughly the same age they were even though time has passed in the show clearly with the birth of Pan. My point being that whenever it gets close to the end of Super leading into the end of Z that Toriyama would have more say on what goes on in the series. But since GT was all Toei and didn't have success and how Toriyama was disappointed with that God awful film whose name I won't mention I am sure he is involved in Super just not heavily involved. He just keeps the train on the track.

[Cetra]

So the question is whats not by toriyama in super, and furthermore do you consider it "canon" if It's just by toei and not toriyama. I have a feeling things like copy vegeta and the universal punches eventually destroying the universe was toei, seams not to fit what toriyama was going for. copy vegeta and the universe thing are not in the manga, and the universe thing doesn't fit with supreme kai from what I see due to the connection thing to beerus.

So would you call super's stuff not from toriyama canon? What do you think they made up?

Considering Toriyama-san provides bullet points, meaning essential aspects of what the story is about but is not really the story writer, a lot of what happens and how it is presented is not from him. Just like a game's story is written by a Scenario Writer while people like Director and others bring in some essential ideas (with some exceptions).

[Kishido]

Gohan's restarting training. Toriyama doesn't care about him.

And of course Goten. I bet he should be considered non canon even for Z

[TheMikado]

Where did this idea come from that he provided episode 1's script? Episode 1 was written by Yukinori Fukushima.

We have no idea about the extent of Toriyama's involvement. All we know is what we've been told, and everything else is pure guesswork based on what turns up in the manga.

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

[THEGOKU]

Where did this idea come from that he provided episode 1's script? Episode 1 was written by Yukinori Fukushima.

We have no idea about the extent of Toriyama's involvement. All we know is what we've been told, and everything else is pure guesswork based on what turns up in the manga.

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

Well didn't he just provide the characters for GT?

[Cetra]

Where did this idea come from that he provided episode 1's script? Episode 1 was written by Yukinori Fukushima.

We have no idea about the extent of Toriyama's involvement. All we know is what we've been told, and everything else is pure guesswork based on what turns up in the manga.

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

Well, not really. We know he at least provides those bullet points of the story as well as does design the more relevant charas.

For GT he did the character design of the good side, some other concept art and the logo. The person we know of as the most involved in the story of GT is Aya Matsui. I do not know about other names but apparently she has left at one point so others must be important as well.

[sintzu]

They didn't say anything about him rewriting the movies' stories for their arcs so he might not have been involved with them or at least not like he is with the other 2 arcs.

In terms of the U6 & Trunks arcs, if something is exclusive to the manga or anime then it might not be from him but if it's in both like the major plot points then they're from him.

Form example, Trunks and Goku both fought as Ssj2's but the way it was handled was different in both versions so the fight was from him but the details were left to the writers.

Toriyama was disappointed with that God awful film whose name I won't mention.

If it weren't for that which we don't speak of, Toriyama might not have gotten back into the franchise.

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

He had little to no involvement with GT but with Super he's writing the main plot and designing the characters.

[YonedgeHP]

Where did this idea come from that he provided episode 1's script? Episode 1 was written by Yukinori Fukushima.

We have no idea about the extent of Toriyama's involvement. All we know is what we've been told, and everything else is pure guesswork based on what turns up in the manga.

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

Toriyama writes the major plot outline.

[TheMikado]

Where did this idea come from that he provided episode 1's script? Episode 1 was written by Yukinori Fukushima.

We have no idea about the extent of Toriyama's involvement. All we know is what we've been told, and everything else is pure guesswork based on what turns up in the manga.

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

Toriyama writes the major plot outline.

My point is that the manga, movies, and anime are so different that this outline obviously can't be very detailed or allows a lot of interpretation.

He had little to no involvement with GT but with Super he's writing the main plot and designing the characters.

He designed the characters for GT too. Depending on how this goes we could later find out he was either intimately involved or his involvement was over exaggerated.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where did this idea come from that he provided episode 1's script? Episode 1 was written by Yukinori Fukushima.

We have no idea about the extent of Toriyama's involvement. All we know is what we've been told, and everything else is pure guesswork based on what turns up in the manga.

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

Well, not really. We know he at least provides those bullet points of the story as well as does design the more relevant charas.

For GT he did the character design of the good side, some other concept art and the logo. The person we know of as the most involved in the story of GT is Aya Matsui. I do not know about other names but apparently she has left at one point so others must be important as well.

Toriyama doesn't give bullet points, as far as we know, he wrote story drafts for the Universe 6 & Future Trunks arcs.

[Cipher]

To be more specific, my guess is that he hasn't written the material that occurs outside the main arcs. That includes the training before Freeza's arrival, some of the build-up to Champa's tournament (including Gohan training with Piccolo, I'm guessing), the Super Water arc, and likely some of Trunks's interactions with various characters in the present.

I could believe either way when it comes to his involvement in major divergent plot points like Vegeta being the first one to request training from Whis and achieving Blue from Whis' training rather than the ritual.

[Cetra]

So for all we know Toriyama could actually have had even less involvement in Super (anime) than GT??

Well, not really. We know he at least provides those bullet points of the story as well as does design the more relevant charas.

For GT he did the character design of the good side, some other concept art and the logo. The person we know of as the most involved in the story of GT is Aya Matsui. I do not know about other names but apparently she has left at one point so others must be important as well.

Toriyama doesn't give bullet points, as far as we know, he wrote story drafts for the Universe 6 & Future Trunks arcs.

Herms even mentioned in a video with Geekdom that we do not know how great Toriyama-san's involvement is but that he gives bullet points which fits perfectly with my "at least bullet points". Considering there are vast differences between manga and anime, "drafts" might be a generous word.

[TheMikado]

^ right, exactly my point. You have people who believe he stopped just short of writing full on scripts where others like me think he actually contributed very little to the Super series/anime. An I think Toei kept it vague enough to make the fandom generate their own narrative as well as preventing Toriyama from legally speaking on it to prevent another "GT" not canon scenario.

[Faisal Shourov]

Copy Vegeta Arc for sure

[Ajay]

Having "SCRIPT BY AKIRA TORIYAMA" on a product is a huge selling point for Toei. If he was genuinely responsible for any script-work, we would absolutely know.

They can't do that, so we end up with stuff like this:

Overseen by Dragon Ball’s original creator, Akira Toriyama and produced with Fuji Television, Dragon Ball Super will draw on its historic past to create a bold, new universe welcoming to fans and endearing to new viewers.

Dragon Ball Super is a gem of an original story, from an original draft provided by manga author Akira Toriyama-sensei!

It’s the start of the “‘Future’ Trunks Arc”, a new plot line with story and characters based an original draft by Akira Toriyama.

This is very different from the verbiage used for Resurrection 'F', which explicitly goes out of its way to talk about Toriyama's script. The number of times I saw Toriyama's quote "[I've written it] as though it were a continuation of the manga when it was in serialization" was astounding.

Super is very different. Instead of comments like that, you just have things along the lines of the above, and then the series composer saying, "Both the story and characters spring from Akira Toriyama-sensei’s pen, a Dragon Ball nobody has ever seen before. In order to be faithful to the scenario sensei has given us, and also to make an anime series that everyone can enjoy, I shall do my very best to make this series together with director [Kimitoshi] Chioka."

By industry definitions, a scenario is just an outline of a story. Its level of detail can vary greatly, but it does not specify everything that happens, instead focusing on enough for a reader to understand the intentions of the story. It's essentially just a sequence of events and locations, often used when pitching an idea to a company. In Super's case, they simply take this and the script writers turn it into a fully-fledged story. Of course, Toriyama contributes character designs too, so his involvement there is a little more full-on. Perhaps he adds little notes and gets carried away in places. We really don't know.

I think it's fairly obvious that the Copy Vegeta arc was Toei's idea. So far, we've had character designs for everything Toriyama has done on Super. They always love to use that stuff to promote the series in V Jump. Had Toriyama actually done any work on that, we'd know. We would almost certainly have his sketches for those characters if he had actually had any involvement there.

Toyotaro's manga is helpful to an extent when attempting to determine what comes from Toriyama and what doesn't, but it's important to remember that Toriyama praised and encouraged Toyotaro's own additions. We also know Toyotaro has a relationship with the production at Toei, so there's a back and forth there to account for, too. And of course, it's a promotional manga, so there's always the chance it skips over parts of Toriyama's scenario just to cover the essential parts in time.

It's hard to really get much more than just the very basics, unfortunately. It's all guess-work. We probably won't ever know for certain.

[Cipher]

It's hard to really get much more than just the very basics, unfortunately. It's all guess-work. We probably won't ever know for certain.

You don't think there's a non-zero chance that, sometime after Super has ended, we'll get a look at Toriyama's draft materials? Those would kind of be the holy grail for a guide-book inclusion at this point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And of course, it's a promotional manga, so there's always the chance it skips over parts of Toriyama's scenario just to cover the essential parts in time.

I really doubt he skips anything. We were told that he takes Toriyama's story draft & expands on it, with no mention of skipping anything. But we've seen that he doesn't expand on everything in detail, like the finale of the U6 arc.