What's left after this arc?

[omaro34]

After reading this I can't help but look at GT and look at Super and confidently say: GT made Goku into a kid physically, but Super turned goku into a kid mentally.

[PsionicWarrior]

After reading this I can't help but look at GT and look at Super and confidently say: GT made Goku into a kid physically, but Super turned goku into a kid mentally.

I don't mind Goku acting like a kid, I mind him acting like an idiot lol
But in the final of Zamasu arc he was great and I hope they keep him that way instead of the bad caricature we've seen in earlier episodes lol

To reply to OP I'd say there's a lot to explore, what I want right now is enjoyable filler to chill out a bit after all the darkness we recently had lol

[fadeddreams5]

We don't need new transformations or techniques to create hype. Solid story telling, animation, and creative ways of using pre-existing abilities is more than enough.

Last thing I want is a new transformation after all the bullshit ones we've gotten. This series has the worst forms in the history of the franchise.

Really? All the Cell arc ones were way worse. Ultra SS. Super Ultra SS or whatever. Super Perfect Cell. SS2 etc. Not to mention the big asspull that was SS3 in the Buu arc that magically got rid of eye brows for some reason and gave Goku long hair for some reason.

I get picking on Super is hip and in nowadays but let's be real the precious "Z" is just as bad. We still don't why SS turns the Saiyan hair blond and makes them have green eyes for pete's sake and people are crying that Trunks transformation didn't get explained. Amazing how people forgive "Z" but not for Super they can't. Truly amazing and makes me really wonder how "Z" would be met now.

The "forms" in the Cell arc were extensions of the regular SSJ transformation. They were meant to be subtle, and the means of obtaining them was very plausible within the context of the story, as all the characters were still "green" when it came to their SSJ forms; they had never trained to reach anything above that. It's like someone who's never worked out entering a gym for the first time; those newb gains are almost instant. I have no clue why you even mention Super Perfect Cell, and I find it unbelievable you mentioned SSJ2 Gohan (I assume you're referring to Gohan), which was and still is amazing to me. And again, it's plausible within the context of series, up to that point. Toriyama simply combined two pre-existing concepts.

SSJ3 is the most amazing design in the series, imo. When I was little, I used to tell people my favorite character was SSJ3 Goku. I never left out SSJ3. It both was and wasn't an asspull. Was in the sense that it came out of nowhere. Wasn't in the sense that it's pretty damn obvious how Goku obtained it and what it is, so it shouldn't have left anyone with a reaction either (aside from how over-the-top it is).

Let's assess Super's transformations:
a) SSJG - Design-wise, it is a skinnier Base Goku with cute magenta hair and fucking ribbons on his boots--literally the opposite of cool! But worst of all, the method to obtain it and what it grants spits on the face of everything we know about saiyans up until this point. God ki? Pure-hearted saiyans circle jerking? What!?

b) SSJB - Understandably, it looks like the SSJ form, as it is literally that, only with god ki included. Why blue? Who cares. My issue isn't with the design; it's with the method of obtaining it, which pretty much contradicts what we had just learned about god ki, how flawless it is, and how it's never made a single impact in the story. It's flawless, but never feels as powerful as the series tries to convince us it's supposed to be, which even SSJG did. If you haven't guessed by now, I hate god ki. I hate everything about it--at least, how it's been implemented. Not even the creators know how to work with this crap.

c) Trunks' form - Design-wise, it's awesome. We never, ever learned wtf it is though. Like, I can't even fathom what they were thinking. It does not tie in with any pre-existing concept, but rather, retcons Gohan's hidden powers (Rageta did this before though). If this was tapped by anger alone, then it replaces SSJ3, but it's also stronger than SSJG, so...it doesn't make sense. This is exactly the sort of transformation I simply don't want to see, but expect from Super. It's self-parody status, and far too convenient and downright lazy.

I get being apologetic towards Super and digging dirt on DBZ to defend it is hip, but these forms are terrible to me for more than simple designs, which, aside from Trunks', are boring and uninspired too. I prefer subtle changes to the SSJ form over color swaps, which Trunks' form, at the very least, managed to accomplish. Personally, I don't think SSJ3 or anything after SSJ2 should have existed. The Buu saga is riddled with terrible ideas. "*Gasp* Did Faded just bash DBZ?" Yes. Fuck the Buu saga. Incidentally, a Goku Black saga would have worked so much better back then instead. No god ki, no Hakaishin, no angels, no Zeno, no kid SSJs, Goku remains dead, no fusion, no SSJ3 (or maybe give this to Goku Black, since it looks villainy), and so on. Just an emphasis on the story. Could have been amazing, actually. "D-did Faded just say he would have liked a Super arc replacing a DBZ one? *stroke*"

Last thing I want is a new transformation after all the bullshit ones we've gotten. This series has the worst forms in the history of the franchise.

The only form that Super has originally introduced is Future Trunks raging SSJ form. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Freeza. were all forms introduced. I don't know why people think Super created them. They just re-introduced them during the re-tellings of the movie.

Before Super was released, I used to say "modern DB," but it's easier to bash Super.

[Cipher]

I never get this way of thinking. About 'needing'. A lot of story arcs in Dragon Ball didn't 'need' to happen. The series could have happily ended at the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament. None of the events of Z needed to happen. And every story arc after Freeza didn't need to happen either. Things could have ended after Freeza or Cell's defeat. Nothing 'needs' to happen.

Maybe I should use a different word than "need," which I'm borrowing from kind of a fiction workshop setting. We often ask why, given every story needs a particular moment in its characters' lives to start and end at, it "needs" to be told at that point. We ask why a scene "needs" to be included -- Does it add something to our understanding of the characters, or a theme or tone, etc.? Or is it simply things happening that could be cut with no substantial loss to the way the story operates as a whole?

That's what I'm getting at. Does the material add something? Does it change our understanding of the characters, or our takeaway from the series? The manga consistently answers that in the positive, I think. The difference is that we've never had material, even in GT, that tried to slot itself between a bookended portion of the original story and try to do the same. The new material has given itself the unenviable task of trying to insert a substantial amount of new serialized stories between portions of the series that set up and capped off major character arcs, and has hamstrung itself in terms of advancing them in any major way. It can certainly add new stories, but I need some sense of progression, which is a pretty natural thing to expect in a story, other than "X character got stronger, and they beat X more supervillains."

The Trunks arc, albeit only in its final moments, felt like it added something -- an odd message on failure and hope the series has never tackled before, making good use of the expanded mythos we've gotten in Super to do so. It evidenced to me, coming off the Resurrection F (which, to be fair, is absolutely fun and fine as a one-off movie) and Universe 6 stories, that Toriyama is still a natural storyteller interested in doing unexpected things with the series. There are certainly still things they could do with the expanded lore that are odd and affecting and feel like they add new layers to the overall story or its ending, so here's hoping we get them. I'm more cautiously optimistic than I was before.

[ekrolo2]

Twilight of the Gods basically, the Gods all dying out and the whole multiverse on the verge of collapse.

[PsionicWarrior]

Fuck the Buu saga.

Aww your post was doing so great and you had to say that, how rude Buu saga is my favorite lol

I personally think any new transformation are welcomed in this series but got to recognize we had it way over the top recently and no more for a while would be good, possibly at this point the best would be subtle changes to SSJB and maybe new exploration of God Ki, I think these forms could be best used if their potentials have yet to be reached and possibly not before a while lol

[HeroR]

I never get this way of thinking. About 'needing'. A lot of story arcs in Dragon Ball didn't 'need' to happen. The series could have happily ended at the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament. None of the events of Z needed to happen. And every story arc after Freeza didn't need to happen either. Things could have ended after Freeza or Cell's defeat. Nothing 'needs' to happen.

Maybe I should use a different word than "need," which I'm borrowing from kind of a fiction workshop setting. We often ask why, given every story needs a particular moment in its characters' lives to start and end at, it "needs" to be told at that point. We ask why a scene "needs" to be included -- Does it add something to our understanding of the characters, or a theme or tone, etc.? Or is it simply things happening that could be cut with no substantial loss to the way the story operates as a whole?

That's what I'm getting at. Does the material add something? Does it change our understanding of the characters, or our takeaway from the series? The manga consistently answers that in the positive, I think. The difference is that we've never had material, even in GT, that tried to slot itself between a bookended portion of the original story and try to do the same. The new material has given itself the unenviable task of trying to insert a substantial amount of new serialized stories between portions of the series that set up and capped off major character arcs, and has hamstrung itself in terms of advancing them in any major way. It can certainly add new stories, but I need some sense of progression, which is a pretty natural thing to expect in a story, other than "X character got stronger, and they beat X more supervillains."

The Trunks arc, albeit only in its final moments, felt like it added something -- an odd message on failure and hope the series has never tackled before, making good use of the expanded mythos we've gotten in Super to do so. It evidenced to me, coming off the Resurrection F (which, to be fair, is absolutely fun and fine as a one-off movie) and Universe 6 stories, that Toriyama is still a natural storyteller interested in doing unexpected things with the series. There are certainly still things they could do with the expanded lore that are odd and affecting and feel like they add new layers to the overall story or its ending, so here's hoping we get them. I'm more cautiously optimistic than I was before.

The reason the series takes place where it does isn't about need. It's about Toriyama thinking the characters are too old in EOZ. There's all it is too it. He got a ten year gap and he chose to fill it.

There are a lot of things in Dragon Ball that don't need to told. Some times a story exists because it's fun and it's an adventure.

[Cipher]

The reason the series takes place where it does isn't about need. It's about Toriyama thinking the characters are too old in EOZ. There's all it is too it. He got a ten year gap and he chose to fill it.

There are a lot of things in Dragon Ball that don't need to told. Some times a story exists because it's fun and it's an adventure.

Yes, but literally every story in the manga about "fun and adventure" also feels like it's advancing the characters and, were the story to end on any of its particular arcs, its ending would have a very different message and tone. It's natural storytelling.

Everything halts in an odd way in Super. Vegeta and Goku's arcs are bookended by the Boo arc and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Apparently we're still on track for its ending, so it really is at greater risk of just being more things happening, more colors, more sounds. And boy did I not care when I thought the Trunks arc was going to wrap up with a standard victory against the supervillain, everything being fixed, and the characters sharing a laugh before getting back to status-quo; the more serious it got, the more it wore on me that I didn't expect these characters to go anywhere or anything thematic to change. Though if they continue to make moves like Toriyama wrote into the end of the Trunks arc, things are looking way up. Like maybe he has something in mind yet, or at least a willingness to go to more unexpected places using all the new pieces he's set up.

[Zephyr]

What I find particularly disappointing, is that I really doubt Toriyama was the one mostly behind that ending.

We know that the arc itself was a suggestion by the editorial department. We know that Toriyama chose this time period because everyone was pretty much capped out, implying (to me at least) that he didn't care about big character growth anymore. We know that after the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster and ensuing tsunami in 2011, Toriyama wanted to do more lighthearted stories.

But I guess if that's what it takes, then "pure Toriyama" isn't fully worth it anymore. He's not writing his stories in the same context he was during the manga's original run. He's not facing weekly deadlines. He's not writing the story in weekly segments. He's not writing himself into corners, and then having to creatively find ways out of it.

Then again, that was never particularly "pure" Toriyama either, since he had editorial influence back then as well. Outside influence can be a good thing for the guy, especially if this arc is anything to go on.

[HeroR]

The reason the series takes place where it does isn't about need. It's about Toriyama thinking the characters are too old in EOZ. There's all it is too it. He got a ten year gap and he chose to fill it.

There are a lot of things in Dragon Ball that don't need to told. Some times a story exists because it's fun and it's an adventure.

Yes, but literally every story in the manga about "fun and adventure" also feels like it's advancing the characters and, were the story to end on any of its particular arcs, its ending would have a very different message and tone. It's natural storytelling.

Everything halts in an odd way in Super. Vegeta and Goku's arcs are bookended by the Boo arc and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Apparently we're still on track for its ending, so it really is at greater risk of just being more things happening, more colors, more sounds. And boy did I not care when I thought the Trunks arc was going to wrap up with a standard victory against the supervillain, everything being fixed, and the characters sharing a laugh before getting back to status-quo; the more serious it got, the more it wore on me that I didn't expect these characters to go anywhere or anything thematic to change. Though if they continue to make moves like Toriyama wrote into the end of the Trunks arc, things are looking way up. Like maybe he has something in mind yet, or at least a willingness to go to more unexpected places using all the new pieces he's set up.

The only arc that had a real 'status quo' was the Champa Saga. BOG and Resurrection 'F' advanced Goku and Vegeta as characters. Even if the timeline didn't get erased, Trunks' timeline was still in ruined with all the gods dead and very little survivors with no way to fix it. There was never going to be a true happy ending in this arc.

[Cipher]

What I find particularly disappointing, is that I really doubt Toriyama was the one mostly behind that ending.

We know that the arc itself was a suggestion by the editorial department. We know that Toriyama chose this time period because everyone was pretty much capped out, implying (to me at least) that he didn't care about big character growth anymore. We know that after the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster and ensuing tsunami in 2011, Toriyama wanted to do more lighthearted stories.

But I guess if that's what it takes, then "pure Toriyama" isn't fully worth it anymore. He's not writing his stories in the same context he was during the manga's original run. He's not facing weekly deadlines. He's not writing the story in weekly segments. He's not writing himself into corners, and then having to creatively find ways out of it.

Then again, that was never particularly "pure" Toriyama either, since he had editorial influence back then as well. Outside influence can be a good thing for the guy, especially if this arc is anything to go on.

I mean, Dragon Ball as a whole is the result of editorial suggestion. What was always nice about it was his willingness to be comparative with editorial even as he accepted suggestions on major plot points; in a lot of ways, the series bucked expectations on a regular basis.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt this arc and assuming that he was given the suggestions to bring in Trunks and an evil Goku, but that the brutal weirdness of the ending was his own. Surely Toei didn't offer that the resolution should involve the destruction of the universe and cohabitation between two Trunks and Mais, or that Zenou should request a friend who winds up being himself. Or at least I'd be pretty surprised if they did.

But yeah, it'll never be exactly the same as it was as a weekly, unplanned serialization where the ending wasn't already in place.

[Xeztin]

I don't think SSB has outstayed its welcome just yet. It may have been around for 3 arcs, but they've been 3 short arcs where the power scale hasn't really gone up in a visible way.

But they could always do more with the Universe 6 members and perhaps introduce new supporting cast characters that way. Maybe another Heel Face Turn former villain. Or maybe they'll do what the Future Trunks Arc has been doing and bringing a supporting cast member along for a specific arc related to them, with Goku and Vegeta doing most of the heavy lifting.

Although, honestly, it feels like the Goku Vegeta fusion idea isn't done just yet. If Vegetto Blue sells, you bet we're probably going to see more of it later on.

To be honest, SSJB was surpassed by SSJB Kaioken (Well if you count that anyways) and then that was surpassed by Super Trunks. There seems to be a new "Transformation" or "Fusion" (Such as Vegito with SSJB) every arc.

I think if Goten and Trunks grew up, and Gohan went back to fighting, it'd really help a lot. I'm more worried about where the villains will originate from more so than the attacks and transformations. Also a young Pan would branch out the cast a bit, we are really short on fighters because everyone but Goku and Vegeta pretty much hung their boots up in the U6 tournament.

For villains we've had Aliens (When that was a new thing), Brother vs Brother, a universal tyrant, a android, a mystical creature, a God, and a Kaioshin. I'm honestly worried about how they will come up with an original villain and on top of that they have to be God Tier or it's not going to be a threat. The thing with God Ki as seen in the U6 tourney, not many people have it other than a select few and the God's themselves.

To put it short, I think SSJB is more or less op unless everyone's going to be as strong as Beerus and Zamasu from now on which wouldn't make sense. I think Goku and Vegeta got too strong too quick.

[Zephyr]

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt this arc and assuming that he was given the suggestions to bring in Trunks and an evil Goku, but that the brutal weirdness of the ending was his own. Surely Toei didn't offer that the resolution should involve the destruction of the universe and cohabitation between two Trunks and Mais, or that Zenou should request a friend who winds up being himself. Or at least I'd be pretty surprised if they did.

When you say it like that, it does sound very un-Toei.

And speaking of the ending not being planned in advance, this arc was refreshing in its lack of a predictable ending. It's been 3 years since we saw him write such a story (Battle of Gods).

[HeroR]

And I asked again, what difference does it make whose idea it is? Not all good ideas come from Toriyama and not all bad or predictable ideas come from Toei.

[Xeztin]

We don't need new transformations or techniques to create hype. Solid story telling, animation, and creative ways of using pre-existing abilities is more than enough.

Last thing I want is a new transformation after all the bullshit ones we've gotten. This series has the worst forms in the history of the franchise.

Really? All the Cell arc ones were way worse. Ultra SS. Super Ultra SS or whatever. Super Perfect Cell. SS2 etc. Not to mention the big asspull that was SS3 in the Buu arc that magically got rid of eye brows for some reason and gave Goku long hair for some reason.

I get picking on Super is hip and in nowadays but let's be real the precious "Z" is just as bad. We still don't why SS turns the Saiyan hair blond and makes them have green eyes for pete's sake and people are crying that Trunks transformation didn't get explained. Amazing how people forgive "Z" but not for Super they can't. Truly amazing and makes me really wonder how "Z" would be met now.

The "forms" in the Cell arc were extensions of the regular SSJ transformation. They were meant to be subtle, and the means of obtaining them was very plausible within the context of the story, as all the characters were still "green" when it came to their SSJ forms; they had never trained to reach anything above that. It's like someone who's never worked out entering a gym for the first time; those newb gains are almost instant. I have no clue why you even mention Super Perfect Cell, and I find it unbelievable you mentioned SSJ2 Gohan (I assume you're referring to Gohan), which was and still is amazing to me. And again, it's plausible within the context of series, up to that point. Toriyama simply combined two pre-existing concepts.

SSJ3 is the most amazing design in the series, imo. When I was little, I used to tell people my favorite character was SSJ3 Goku. I never left out SSJ3. It both was and wasn't an asspull. Was in the sense that it came out of nowhere. Wasn't in the sense that it's pretty damn obvious how Goku obtained it and what it is, so it shouldn't have left anyone with a reaction either (aside from how over-the-top it is).

Let's assess Super's transformations:
a) SSJG - Design-wise, it is a skinnier Base Goku with cute magenta hair and fucking ribbons on his boots--literally the opposite of cool! But worst of all, the method to obtain it and what it grants spits on the face of everything we know about saiyans up until this point. God ki? Pure-hearted saiyans circle jerking? What!?

b) SSJB - Understandably, it looks like the SSJ form, as it is literally that, only with god ki included. Why blue? Who cares. My issue isn't with the design; it's with the method of obtaining it, which pretty much contradicts what we had just learned about god ki, how flawless it is, and how it's never made a single impact in the story. It's flawless, but never feels as powerful as the series tries to convince us it's supposed to be, which even SSJG did. If you haven't guessed by now, I hate god ki. I hate everything about it--at least, how it's been implemented. Not even the creators know how to work with this crap.

c) Trunks' form - Design-wise, it's awesome. We never, ever learned wtf it is though. Like, I can't even fathom what they were thinking. It does not tie in with any pre-existing concept, but rather, retcons Gohan's hidden powers (Rageta did this before though). If this was tapped by anger alone, then it replaces SSJ3, but it's also stronger than SSJG, so...it doesn't make sense. This is exactly the sort of transformation I simply don't want to see, but expect from Super. It's self-parody status, and far too convenient and downright lazy.

I get being apologetic towards Super and digging dirt on DBZ to defend it is hip, but these forms are terrible to me for more than simple designs, which, aside from Trunks', are boring and uninspired too. I prefer subtle changes to the SSJ form over color swaps, which Trunks' form, at the very least, managed to accomplish. Personally, I don't think SSJ3 or anything after SSJ2 should have existed. The Buu saga is riddled with terrible ideas. "*Gasp* Did Faded just bash DBZ?" Yes. Fuck the Buu saga. Incidentally, a Goku Black saga would have worked so much better back then instead. No god ki, no Hakaishin, no angels, no Zeno, no kid SSJs, Goku remains dead, no fusion, no SSJ3 (or maybe give this to Goku Black, since it looks villainy), and so on. Just an emphasis on the story. Could have been amazing, actually. "D-did Faded just say he would have liked a Super arc replacing a DBZ one? *stroke*"

Last thing I want is a new transformation after all the bullshit ones we've gotten. This series has the worst forms in the history of the franchise.

The only form that Super has originally introduced is Future Trunks raging SSJ form. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Freeza. were all forms introduced. I don't know why people think Super created them. They just re-introduced them during the re-tellings of the movie.

Before Super was released, I used to say "modern DB," but it's easier to bash Super.

I agree with A-C points, SSG retconed everything we were told Saiyan's were and SSJB retconed the whole God Ki concept and the power scale with Beerus. In all honesty, Trunk's new form is the only one that makes sense, he got pissed off and attained it like they always have. (Even if it's out of this world strong with God Ki it still makes more sense than SSG and Blue.) We have no idea how the hell God Ki works, at first Goku obtained it via ritual and absorbed it, fighting in SSJ on par with SSG. Then in RoF Goku's base was believed to be on par with SSG and SSJB being even stronger, suggesting he can't use the normal SSJ forms anymore because of the God Ki. Then the 3rd retcon was when Goku went normal SSJ and fought in the Champa arc and later on SSJ2 and 3 in the Future Trunks arc and was on the same level he was pre SSG when from BoG his normal SSJ should have been on par with SSG. No one knows how Vegeta got God Ki, and no one knows how SSJB works. Some believe SSJ brings out God Ki to make SSJB and then its said in the anime that its from preventing the leaking of your ki which spits in the face of the whole ritual and absorbing thing. Then you have that Saiyan Beyond God concept that was dropped after RoF, and SSJB Kaioken not surpassing Beerus after Goku was basically on par with SSG in BoG. Potara's got retconned, and I don't even want to get into the Toriyama interviews.

If you take all this into account, you figure out Super is there to sell more than it is for a story which I'm fine with. I accept it for what it is and I love it for that, but GT doesn't hold a farce to all that, the worst one can say about GT is Goku being a kid and magical pants.

In short I also hate God Ki, I think God Ki should have stayed exclusive to the real God's and I think when Toei released that they tried to retcon it and say it's achieved by not letting your Ki leak. It's all BoG's fault as you can even see in the title, there wasn't ever a sequel to be planned during BoG and it was supposed to be a one off thing. Goku should have attained SSG by ritual (No God Ki to it, just really powerful normal Ki pouring into one) SSG would have just been a cool name not suggesting he actually has powers of a God. It should have disappeared, and Goku should have gained SSJB through another way and it shouldn't have been anywhere near SSG's or SSJB's power level. Meaning SSJB should be something realistic like 5x SSJ3 where SSG was just limitless. SSJB could have come from training with Whis, no God ki to it.

I think there are a lot of way's the story could have made sense or everything would have been a lot better, but there was so much already out that they couldn't take back, and plus they were saying this is canon that was canon, and they couldn't erase it. So they worked with what they had.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I don't like video games. Also, I don't like DBS, at all.

The original 420 chapters and the TV equivalent will always be the Dragon Ball to me. If I'm getting new material, I'd rather it be something that I can have a bit of fun watching, rather than a pale imitation of the old.

Then why are you even here?

If Dragon Ball Super can start putting together interesting stories that actually hold up under scrutiny, I'll take interest in it, because I'm a Dragon Ball fan. But this series doesn't bring that to the table, the stories are unimaginative or incoherent. Also, I don't appreciate bankrupt non-sequiturs like this. It's the equivalent of saying "If you don't like America, get out!". I enjoy Dragon Ball, I don't critique it because of hatred, I critique it because the new material is legitimately bad. It's not even a matter of whether or not I enjoy it, it's mechanically poor. Why would I want a poor rehash of the old material when we could have something more creative? Something where it doesn't matter if it replicates the best parts of old material or not, as long as it's fun.

[Cipher]

And I asked again, what difference does it make whose idea it is? Not all good ideas come from Toriyama and not all bad or predictable ideas come from Toei.

No real difference as long as someone's doing something that adds to the story in a meaningful, risk-taking way.

[HeroR]

If Dragon Ball Super can start putting together interesting stories that actually hold up under scrutiny, I'll take interest in it, because I'm a Dragon Ball fan. But this series doesn't bring that to the table, the stories are unimaginative or incoherent. Also, I don't appreciate bankrupt non-sequiturs like this. It's the equivalent of saying "If you don't like America, get out!". I enjoy Dragon Ball, I don't critique it because of hatred, I critique it because the new material is legitimately bad. It's not even a matter of whether or not I enjoy it, it's mechanically poor.

Being a fan of something from the past isn't an excuse to want to watch the newer version of a show. I am a Ninja Turtles fans, but I didn't care about the 2003 series and stopped watching it. I didn't keep watching it out of loyalty to the old series, nor did I visit forums about it. The same with the new Powerpuff Girls. It also comes off as petty and selfish to want a series to end because you personally don't like it when other people do.

And, the show is 'legitimately bad' and 'mechanically poor' is your opinion. Me and others like the series, and considered the Future Trunks Saga one of the best story arcs. For me, the Cell Saga was 'mechanically poor' since it only was able to keep going because everyone, including the freaking villain, held the idiot ball. You didn't, that fine. But don't pushed your view of Super as the fact.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

And, the show is 'legitimately bad' and 'mechanically poor' is your opinion. Me and others like the series, and considered the Future Trunks Saga one of the best story arcs. For me, the Cell Saga was 'mechanically poor' since it only was able to keep going because everyone, including the freaking villain, held the idiot ball. You didn't, that fine. But don't pushed your view of Super as the fact.

You can like it all you want, but I can (and have) typed paragraphs detailing why it isn't good. Also, if you have a problem with the "idiot ball" plot device from the last 2 arcs of Z, why not now? Because it's alive and just as well as ever. Not to mention all of the ass-pulls, the stalling, and the total disregard for past continuity rules (which is one of the most basic building blocks of cohesive narratives). These things are not okay, it's not even an opinion, there is a right and wrong way to storytell. By the way, where do you get the idea that I'm not critical of the Android Arc? I already know the answer, I just thought I'd once again point out how bankrupt you are, making assumptions based on absolutely nothing.

[HeroR]

And, the show is 'legitimately bad' and 'mechanically poor' is your opinion. Me and others like the series, and considered the Future Trunks Saga one of the best story arcs. For me, the Cell Saga was 'mechanically poor' since it only was able to keep going because everyone, including the freaking villain, held the idiot ball. You didn't, that fine. But don't pushed your view of Super as the fact.

You can like it all you want, but I can (and have) typed paragraphs detailing why it isn't good. Also, if you have a problem with the "idiot ball" plot device from the last 2 arcs of Z, why not now? Because it's alive and just as well as ever. Not to mention all of the ass-pulls, the stalling, and the total disregard for past continuity rules (which is one of the most basic building blocks of cohesive narratives). These things are not okay, it's not even an opinion, there is a right and wrong way to storytell. By the way, where do you get the idea that I'm not critical of the Android Arc? I already know the answer, I just thought I'd once again point out how bankrupt you are, making assumptions based on absolutely nothing.

That's good, that's your opinion. The problem I have is you pushing that opinion as fact and wishing Super would end because you don't personally enjoy it, which comes off as petty.

The only 'idiot ball' moment that extended the plot in the Future Trunks Saga was Goku forgetting the seal, which Roshi never even gave him. There is also an open question if they arc would have ended there since Black could have easily broken the jar. Goku forgetting the Senzus during the first fight wouldn't have changed the outcome of what happened. Just prolong a very painful defeat. Them going back during round 2 ill prepared was more Beerus' fault since he kept insisting that he fixed things. While the Cell Saga was born from an idiot ball. They could have ended the plot before it started by using the Dragon Balls to kill Gero before he could active the androids.

The only real 'asspulls' I count in this arc is Trunks learning the Evil Containment Wave quickly and the unknown Spirit Bomb. Trunks' transformation isn't an asspull since we have seen transformations all the time from rage rom the original Super Saiyan, to Super Saiyan 2, to Vegeta's rage form.

Also, what 'disregard for past continuity'? Vegetto defused without any explanation other than Goku half-hearted 'bad air' and Goku specifically asked Gowasu why it happened. The anime also went into a long explanation how time split works and how the Time Rings represent a new timeline. Even when Trunks asked how Beerus' interference changed his time, Beerus explained it as a god killing another god not splitting timelines, but did in this case since Black was protected by his Time Ring.

So yes, it your opinion. You have the right to it, but don't pretend it's a fact.