Super: Yay or Nay?

[Bansho64]

Give it a shot if you want. See if you like it. I don't think the anime is in any way great and hardly borders on good, but you might think differently.

If you want my thoughts, I'd recommend Toyo's manga instead after rewatching the BOG and ROF movies. IMO, it's a much better follow up compared to it's counterpart. There's plenty problems to go along with it, but it's a much more cohesive and structured story. Things really kick up in the Black arc.

Give either one a shot, but I'd put my semi "Yay" on the manga and a complete "Nay" on the anime.

[DBZAOTA482]

I definitely think you should try it... but don't expect too much from it.

[ThatFanaticJackatoo]

I don't see why not, currently I myself is enjoying Super so far.

[AnimeMaakuo]

Goku Black is just a recycled villain from Turles in movie #3 who can turn into SSJG "Rose"

Either way, Goku Black is not a Tullece derivative. The only commonality there is "Evil Goku", but the characters act nothing alike, have totally different origins, and their narratives and personalities take entirely different directions. Honestly not sure how that comparison was made with a straight face.

Yes, he is.

1). They have the same character design.

2). They are both villains.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Yes, he is.

1). They have the same character design.

2). They are both villains.

...and you don't find anything utterly ridiculous about using some of the most superficial classifications possible to declare two vastly different things equal?

[AnimeMaakuo]

Yes, he is.

1). They have the same character design.

2). They are both villains.

...and you don't find anything utterly ridiculous about using some of the most superficial classifications possible to declare two vastly different things equal?

Your attitude is not appropriate for this discussion and I will not longer be apart of it.

If you're not willing to truly have a real, genuine conversation with your fellow fans without resorting to that kind of language, this is not the place for you.

[Boo Machine]

Yes, he is.

1). They have the same character design.

2). They are both villains.

...and you don't find anything utterly ridiculous about using some of the most superficial classifications possible to declare two vastly different things equal?

Your attitude is not appropriate for this discussion and I will not longer be apart of it.

All he did was ask why we're using bare bones comparisons. Looking alike and being bad guys does not equal the same character. With that logic Gohan and Yamcha are the same character. They've both looked alike at some point and are good guys.

[TheAldella]

...and you don't find anything utterly ridiculous about using some of the most superficial classifications possible to declare two vastly different things equal?

Your attitude is not appropriate for this discussion and I will not longer be apart of it.

All he did was ask why we're using bare bones comparisons. Looking alike and being bad guys does not equal the same character. With that logic Gohan and Yamcha are the same character. They've both looked alike at some point and are good guys.

Gohan and Yamcha don’t share the same character design, which defeats the point AnimeMaakuo was trying to get across.

[ABED]

Okay, they share the same design but the other criterion was "they are both evil", but that's so broad as to be useless. What are their motives and psychology. Why do they look like Goku?

[Boo Machine]

Gohan and Yamcha don’t share the same character design, which defeats the point AnimeMaakuo was trying to get across.

I maybe reaching a bit. But is it still not odd to come to the conclusion that two characters are the same based on looking alike and being bad guys? As opposed to say, motivation, personality, etc.

[TheAldella]

Okay, they share the same design but the other criterion was "they are both evil", but that's so broad as to be useless. What are their motives and psychology. Why do they look like Goku?

They're both generic power trippers with the same appearance as our hero.

Goku Black is an unoriginal concept that could've been swapped for a new and menacing enemy instead.
My problem is that they DID do menacing stuff with him, but he's already a tired concept. It's like stuffing a dead horse with jewelry.

[DrakenballP]

Yes, he is.

1). They have the same character design.

2). They are both villains.

...and you don't find anything utterly ridiculous about using some of the most superficial classifications possible to declare two vastly different things equal?

Your attitude is not appropriate for this discussion and I will not longer be apart of it.

If you're not willing to truly have a real, genuine conversation with your fellow fans without resorting to that kind of language, this is not the place for you.

I'm sorry to butt in here, but how exactly is calling something "utterly ridiculous" or calling things "Superficial classifications", "inappropriate language" or otherwise, "inappropriate" in any way?

[ABED]

Okay, they share the same design but the other criterion was "they are both evil", but that's so broad as to be useless. What are their motives and psychology. Why do they look like Goku?

They're both generic power trippers with the same appearance as our hero.

Goku Black is an unoriginal concept that could've been swapped for a new and menacing enemy instead.
My problem is that they DID do menacing stuff with him, but he's already a tired concept. It's like stuffing a dead horse with jewelry.

I can't speak to Zamasu, but I agree there's no depth to Tullece. Even saying "they are power trippers" can mean vastly different things, and generic comes down to execution. Hell, even a two dimensional villain can be great. Look at Hans Gruber. He doesn't have much depth, but Rickman's performance takes a very simple character and turns it into a classic villain.

I would consider a character who sees humans as destructive and wants to kill them to prove a point to be different for DB.

[TheAldella]

Okay, they share the same design but the other criterion was "they are both evil", but that's so broad as to be useless. What are their motives and psychology. Why do they look like Goku?

They're both generic power trippers with the same appearance as our hero.

Goku Black is an unoriginal concept that could've been swapped for a new and menacing enemy instead.
My problem is that they DID do menacing stuff with him, but he's already a tired concept. It's like stuffing a dead horse with jewelry.

I can't speak to Zamasu, but I agree there's no depth to Tullece. Even saying "they are power trippers" can mean vastly different things, and generic comes down to execution. Hell, even a two dimensional villain can be great. Look at Hans Gruber. He doesn't have much depth, but Rickman's performance takes a very simple character and turns it into a classic villain.

I would consider a character who sees humans as destructive and wants to kill them to prove a point to be different for DB.

The execution is wildly different. However, they still remain the same without sitting down and watching the show, which is what this thread is about, IIRC.

If we pardon Tullece from all of existence, then it makes Goku Black an incredible villain for the TV serial, but the fact that he already happened burns it all to the ground at face value and draws on a lingering feeling.

I find this to strangely be the case for most of Super's broad arc concepts, actually.

"We brought back Freeza"
"Yeah but Toei did that already"

"We made an Evil Goku"
"Yeah but Toei did that already"

It's like Toriyama is trying to take Toei's ideas of stone and polish them into diamods, but is only getting bronze and silver out of it.

[sintzu]

If you're not interested in the anime then you should at least read the manga cause not only is it better in nearly every way but its writing and art are a lot closer to Toriyama's original manga. It won't take as long to get through and you'll get a better experience out of it.

Although Super is nearly 100 episodes in, it still has the same problems that it had when it started so it seems like Toei aren't interested in improving it.

[Anime Kitten]

Okay, they share the same design but the other criterion was "they are both evil", but that's so broad as to be useless. What are their motives and psychology. Why do they look like Goku?

From what I've heard of Tullece, he looks like Gokū because he can and he's evil because he wants to be. That's not necessarily bad if it's executed well, though.

Gokū Black... well, that's a bit of a spoiler, but it's completely acknowledged and explained why he looks like Gokū. His motives are from him observing humans (more specifically, non-gods) and deciding they should be eradicated because of, in his view, the cause and effect cycle and the constant, senseless violence.

[ABED]

Okay, they share the same design but the other criterion was "they are both evil", but that's so broad as to be useless. What are their motives and psychology. Why do they look like Goku?

From what I've heard of Tullece, he looks like Gokū because he can and he's evil because he wants to be. That's not necessarily bad if it's executed well, though.

Gokū Black... well, that's a bit of a spoiler, but it's completely acknowledged and explained why he looks like Gokū. His motives are from him observing humans (more specifically, non-gods) and deciding they should be eradicated because of, in his view, the cause and effect cycle and the constant, senseless violence.

There, that's VERY different. The fact that another villain looked like Goku lessens the impact a little but execution is everything. Plus Tullece was in ONE movie over 20 years ago.

[TheAldella]

Okay, they share the same design but the other criterion was "they are both evil", but that's so broad as to be useless. What are their motives and psychology. Why do they look like Goku?

From what I've heard of Tullece, he looks like Gokū because he can and he's evil because he wants to be. That's not necessarily bad if it's executed well, though.

Gokū Black... well, that's a bit of a spoiler, but it's completely acknowledged and explained why he looks like Gokū. His motives are from him observing humans (more specifically, non-gods) and deciding they should be eradicated because of, in his view, the cause and effect cycle and the constant, senseless violence.

There, that's VERY different. The fact that another villain looked like Goku lessens the impact a little but execution is everything. Plus Tullece was in ONE movie over 20 years ago.

That Funimation won't stop re-releasing and reminding us of. Bardock also lessens it because it's another toei-original Goku clone that murders relentlessly, protagonist or not. I blame Toei's Z contributions for all of this. Not Super.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

They're both generic power trippers with the same appearance as our hero.

Goku Black is an unoriginal concept that could've been swapped for a new and menacing enemy instead.
My problem is that they DID do menacing stuff with him, but he's already a tired concept. It's like stuffing a dead horse with jewelry.

In the fandom? Perhaps, with an over 30 years franchise it's hard to come with something that has not been done in any kind of fanwork.

In the animated franchise? Not so much, Turllece is the only instance of evil goku in the franchise.

[Anime Kitten]

Bardock also lessens it because it's another toei-original Goku clone that murders relentlessly, protagonist or not. I blame Toei's Z contributions for all of this. Not Super.

Bardock was designed by Toriyama, though, if I'm not mistaken. And to be fair, just because there were other characters that looked​ like Gokū doesn't necessarily mean Black is unoriginal. Everything - and I mean everything - is in the execution. If there are good ideas that were not properly executed in one's opinion, then they make a fanfic about it. In all seriousness, though, and a bit more on-topic, I do believe Super is much more enjoyable in light of itself rather than in light of previous content. Yes, you can make the connections to said previous content, but it's best to watch/read it as its own thing that picks up the story but not necessarily the writing. I don't think Black was intended to be compared to any previously existing characters but Gokū himself.