Did Z, Super and GT need to exist?

[Totamo]

The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai isn't ABOUT the gags. There's humor, just like there is in all of DB/Z/GT, but it's building towards the very brutal and bloody final confrontation between Goku and Piccolo. DBZ has the Ginyu Force. Your implication that comedy isn't present in DBZ is ridiculous.

not ki blasts.

Ki blasts are a form of martial arts in that world. It's another example of how the story expanded. DB didn't go from 0 to 60 in no time flat. It was a constantly evolving story, even through DBZ. The Buu arc is FILLED with humor.

the world is in danger but its all about the tournament.

So? In DBZ, Goku allows the Cyborgs to be created in order to have a fight. It's not a superhero show.

I can make a list of 100 things Z made drastically different from ball, beginning with Goku's characterization and origins.

You don't seem to understand the nature of the show. Goku's origin never changes. It's left unexplored until the Saiyan arc. Goku's characterization doesn't change in the way you make it seem. He loves a fight and wants to be the best in DB and DBZ. That fact never changes.

The piccolo daimao arc is closet thing we got but yajirobe eats a person and the pilaf gang are still around and king piccolo uses the lottery to decide a city's destruction.

Ginyu turns into a frog and Buu turns people into candy! I also fail to see how Piccolo's method of decision making about what city to destroy makes it tonally different from DBZ.

Name one joke in the saiyan saga that is meant to be funny.



the buu arc is like dragon ball which is why most z fans hate it. proving my point.

[ABED]

While none of it needed to exist, I like where the first two arcs in DBZ went. I would've been satisfied with DB if it had ended at either the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai or the Freeza arc. Either is a solid ending, though admittedly the Freeza arc would need a few tweaks if Toriyama had decided to end there. What I like about is Freeza is a logical final big bad.

Name one joke in the saiyan saga that is meant to be funny.

the buu arc is like dragon ball which is why most z fans hate it. proving my point.

So because Toriyama decides to use a little less humor in the Saiyan arc, you claim they are completely different stories? I give you the Ginyu Force! It's not the Saiyan arc, but it's DBZ.

The Buu arc isn't bad because it had humor and it's not the reason many fans hate it. You are implying fans hate DB because it's more comedic.

[Doctor.]

Yajirobe serves as comic relief during the Vegeta vs Goku confrontation. Saying there's no comedy in the Saiyan arc is absurd.

[ekrolo2]

the buu arc is like dragon ball which is why most z fans hate it. proving my point.

The comedy in the Boo arc doesn't suck because it's there, it sucks because it takes away from characters who one minute want revenge then the other are goofing off idiots because Toriyama wants Gotenks to be a wacky little rascal who forgets Boo's murdered pretty much everyone he knows and loves not five seconds prior to their battle.

[Totamo]

Yajirobe serves as comic relief during the Vegeta vs Goku confrontation. Saying there's no comedy in the Saiyan arc is absurd.

That wasn't a joke. He had a purpose to cut off Vegeta's tail. Whats the funny part? Him running? That wasn't funny. That was intelligent.

[Totamo]

While none of it needed to exist, I like where the first two arcs in DBZ went. I would've been satisfied with DB if it had ended at either the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai or the Freeza arc. Either is a solid ending, though admittedly the Freeza arc would need a few tweaks if Toriyama had decided to end there. What I like about is Freeza is a logical final big bad.

Name one joke in the saiyan saga that is meant to be funny.

the buu arc is like dragon ball which is why most z fans hate it. proving my point.

So because Toriyama decides to use a little less humor in the Saiyan arc, you claim they are completely different stories? I give you the Ginyu Force! It's not the Saiyan arc, but it's DBZ.

The Buu arc isn't bad because it had humor and it's not the reason many fans hate it. You are implying fans hate DB because it's more comedic.

I'm generalizing hard here but yeah I believe that is the reason a Z fan would hate Ball. Its the goofy nature. its why you show kids ball, but older ones Z.


Z was always seen by them as the more serious, tense and well more action packed.


Now if you can prove me wrong. I will say you are correct

[sintzu]

King piccolo uses the lottery to decide a city's destruction.

I also fail to see how Piccolo's method of decision making about what city to destroy makes it tonally different from DBZ.

King Piccolo doing it that way made it one of the most terrifying scene in the whole show. Imagine if that's how someone decided how you'd go out ? the longer you live, the more terrified you'd get knowing that sooner or later it'll be your turn.

the buu arc is like dragon ball which is why most z fans hate it. proving my point.

Someone had a voting game here a few months ago where everyone picked their favorite arc and the Buu arc won 2nd place after the Saiyan arc. Saiyan island also did a poll a few years ago where it came out on top.

[Doctor.]

Yajirobe serves as comic relief during the Vegeta vs Goku confrontation. Saying there's no comedy in the Saiyan arc is absurd.

That wasn't a joke. He had a purpose to cut off Vegeta's tail. Whats the funny part? Him running? That wasn't funny. That was intelligent.

His entire personality is supposed to be a joke.

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

I mean, I don't know what to tell you. This is clearly meant to be comedic, you're supposed to laugh. Yajirobe's cowardice and defeat is treated much differently than, say, Kuririn's. Just because his actions double as both comic relief and major plot points doesn't mean his actions are not inherently comedic.

[PsionicWarrior]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

[ABED]

Z was always seen by them as the more serious, tense and well more action packed.

Because DB got there over the course of the story. And it's arguable that DBZ is more action packed. It's just different. The kind of action is different.

[sintzu]

I'm generalizing hard here but yeah I believe that is the reason a Z fan would hate Ball. Its the goofy nature. its why you show kids ball, but older ones Z.

The reason Z only fans hate it is because they don't want to give it a chance. If the Z branding didn't exist everyone would've just started from the beginning and watched the story the way it was meant to be seen. Sure you can watch Z on its own but you're missing out on so much content that makes Z an even better show. Whenever I watch Z (Kai) I watch DB first and always wish that's how I would've seen them cause all the plot points in Z that were meant as plot twists didn't have an impact when I first watched Z.

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

In Japan Jump's popularity and sales in the 90's and for a long time after were at their highest during the Buu arc so the ones who don't like it are a vocal minority. Like the arcs before it, it's full of great content from start to finish. Toriyama could've really messed it up due to him being tired of DB but he gave it his all and ended up creating the best arc yet (IMO).

To me, The Buu arc is still the gold standard to what a final arc in a long running Shonen should be like. Naruto, Bleach, YuYu Hakusho & Fairy tail all in some way messed up their final arcs but Toriyama somehow didn't so hopefully other shonen will take notice of it.

[ABED]

Really? I feel the exact opposite. It's his worst arc in DBZ and it feels like he threw it all together and was racing towards the finish. I don't know how the manga for YYH did things, but I really like the ending of the anime.

[Doctor.]

Really? I feel the exact opposite. It's his worst arc in DBZ and it feels like he threw it all together and was racing towards the finish. I don't know how the manga for YYH did things, but I really like the ending of the anime.

The manga version of the arc was quite rushed and half-assed but I feel like the anime was an improvement.

[ABED]

Really? I feel the exact opposite. It's his worst arc in DBZ and it feels like he threw it all together and was racing towards the finish. I don't know how the manga for YYH did things, but I really like the ending of the anime.

The manga version of the arc was quite rushed and half-assed but I feel like the anime was an improvement.

Slight. The anime went in the opposite direction. It feels sluggish.

[sintzu]

Really? I feel the exact opposite. It's his worst arc in DBZ and it feels like he threw it all together and was racing towards the finish.

I don't know how the manga for YYH did things, but I really like the ending of the anime.

The anime did a lot of improvements like longer fights and characters moments so that's what I'm basing it on. There are so many good things in each arc that thinking about it I could have a different favorite every day but overall, the Buu arc wins. Vegeta's always been my favorite and he was written the best here so that has a lot to do with my choice.

The story seemed to be going in one direction (a war between the 3 kings) only to do another tournament and a rushed one at that, especially compared to the one before it. Like what Toei did with Buu, the studio made a lot of improvements to it cause it was very rushed in the manga. YYH as a whole would've been longer but Jump wanted him to go in one direction while he wanted to do his own thing so he ended it instead.

[ABED]

The point was to subvert expectations. It seemed like an impending battle between the three kings, but it would one with ramifications for the Human world. By creating the tournament, Yusuke was hoping to put a stop to it, which it did. Maybe the tournament was short, but the show already had a 40 episode tournament. Why do that again? I don't think it was rushed. It brought things to a logical conclusion and closure for the characters and their arcs in a satisfying way.

[Xeogran]

All three of them need to exist, yes. The world is more colorful that way

[KBABZ]

A joke in the Saiyan Arc? Easy, King Kai gets plenty of laughs due to how amazingly un-funny he is. Not to mention Goku's winning joke of (at least in Kai) "I sold my car... FOR GAS MONEY!!".

IMO Dragon Ball gets extremely close to Z in its final third. For me it first shows up when Goku confronts Tambourine in a fit of pure, unnegotiable rage. The point of no return towards Z in my opinion though is when King Piccolo nukes the capital city, and by the time the 23rd Tournament comes around it's basically DBZ with the last letter missing because not a single one of those fights is for comedy purposes anymore and it's all about the leadup to Goku vs Piccolo Jr. The entirety of the Saiyan Arc Z Warriors, Piccolo included, are now active in the story, as is the Dragon Ball gang (that is, the sideline characters) with the addition of Launch.

On the complaint about SSB, I should note that SS3 was ALSO a form Goku attained off-screen, and even when Gotenks uses it he loses against Super Buu consistently. Hmm, sounds familiar...

[sintzu]

Maybe the tournament was short, but the show already had a 40 episode tournament. Why do that again?

It brought things to a logical conclusion and closure for the characters and their arcs in a satisfying way.

Why not just have them go to war like what it seemed like was going to happen ?

It ended on a good note but there's so much more that could've been done with what we could've gotten in a war.

[PsionicWarrior]

In Japan Jump's popularity and sales in the 90's and for a long time after were at their highest during the Buu arc so the ones who don't like it are a vocal minority.

Ah, that makes sense.