Did Z, Super and GT need to exist?

[Totamo]

I'm not talking about popularity or impact, I'm talking about quality of a story. I know Z is only in the anime but I'm using it for the second half


Z is loved by the fans but is an anime snob's favorite punching bag.

Super is very much mixed to positive, but has flaws that a 30 minute rant wouldn't be enough for.

GT is mixed to negative and was straw that broke the camel's back.

It truly seems that the more dragon ball comes out, the less the love it will receive. Heck if you were in 2012, every dragon ball fight had the same comments. "This is so much better than Z." Then a long ass paragraph bashing the sequel



Dragon ball was the story of Son Goku and 23rd budokai does put a nice little bow on the story. All the mystery could be left to theory, like we do now. Dragon ball was not planned to go as long as it did or has.


I also think that had Toriyama ended dragon ball early, maybe he could have came out with a third hit series.

[sintzu]

Dragon ball as a whole didn't need to exist so a better question would be, did toriyama justify it continuing beyond that point and the answer is yes.

Toriyama did a great job at building the world even further, introducing great new characters, developing them alongside the already existing ones, introducing classic elements such as the super saiyan and most importantly, writing a story that millions of people around the world fell in love with.

To me, the db story we got from toriyama is one of the best stories ever written and the reason I'm an anime fan today so I'm very happy with how it turned out. Nothing felt forced and everything in it came together perfectly.

I could live without super and gt though.

[8000 Saiyan]

Not at all, but I'm glad they do exist, with the exception of GT. Even though Dragon Ball doesn't have the best writing in anime/manga, more Dragon Ball content is always a good thing for me.

[emperior]

I'm glad all of them exist. Yes, even GT. I don't particularly like it, but some aspects of it are good and as a kid I remember watching it just to wait for SSJ4 to appear. The first two episodes were also entertaining, but after those the show only gets decent when Baby goes to Earth. Afterwards it was nothing outstanding but still somewhat entertaining. I consider Super to be much better though.
As for Z, I love it. Almost everyone loves it. I wouldn't love Dragon Ball as much if Toriyama ended it after the 23rd BT. And I wouldn't be the only one.

[ekrolo2]

Nothing after Freeza deserves to exist, besides a few bits and pieces and concepts, most of it is shit to varying degrees. It's popularity probably wouldn't be as big as it is now if that was the end point but the story would've concluded at the last high point it ever got.

[Lord Beerus]

If a person or a group of people have the motivation to tell more stories, then there is no other justification that is required for any given story in any given medium to exist. Dragon Ball Z exits because Toriyama was still having fun writing and drawing Dragon Ball for millions of young boys to enjoy. Dragon Ball GT exists because Toei wanted continue the original story of Dragon Ball in Toriyama's steed. Super exists because, following Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Toriyama felt the urge and conviction to give more simple fighting tales that he feel will satisfy him the most. If there is more content that somebody feels compelled to provide for Dragon Ball, then by all means, let them provide it.

[ShadowBardock89]

Did Dragon Ball itself need to exist? Nope.
The reason why Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and Super exist is because people bought into the product.
To quote MasakoX: "Marketing!"

[Robo4900]

Dragon Ball Z is simply the second two thirds of the story that began in Dragon Ball. Although you could probably have ended it at multiple points before the start of Z, continuing the story on by telling Gohan's story, further developing Piccolo's story, and bringing in the changes that came in with this era were all excellent decisions, and the franchise almost certainly couldn't have gone on without it. The argument that it wasn't intended to go on as long as it did is rather silly, as the original plan was for Dragon Ball to just be the Pilaf arc. Everything after that was just Toriyama continuing on doing what he wanted, how he wanted, for as long as he wanted to(Yeah, some editors had some creative influence at times, particularly during the Cell arc, but let's not debate the semantics), so by that logic, everything after the Pilaf arc was unnecessary, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who'd agree with you on that.

So, Dragon Ball Z was necessary, I would say.

But, once Toriyama put down the pen, and ended the original manga, you hit the small snag of what to do next.
The fans wanted more, Toei wanted to do more, and Akira Toriyama was happy for them to do so, so really, GT made a lot of sense. Perhaps it wasn't totally necessary, but many people were dissatisfied with the ending of Z, so at the very least, GT's ending provided some much-needed finality and closure to Dragon Ball. Even GT's detractors like GT's ending, aswell as several of its ideas and plot lines, despite often criticising the execution. So while it is most certainly a flawed work, I'd say it most certainly justifies its existence, if only as one last hurrah for the original run of the franchise.

As for Super... On paper, it made sense given the fact Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F had been so successful, but on the other hand, those were standalone movies, and overall, Resurrection F didn't really work. Battle Of Gods was Dragon Ball through and through, it washed away the bitter taste left over from Evolution, and it provided new material in the canon for the first time since 1996.
The problem is, as soon as it stopped being a self-contained story, and became an ongoing direct continuation(Resurrection F) or a long-running series(Super), it began to lose its way, basically tripping up in many of the same ways GT did, but this time with Toriyama officially at the helm.
Really, they should have either learned from their mistakes in Resurrection F and simply proceeded with doing movies, or started Super off with new material straight out of the gate, or perhaps something half-way between(Perhaps one more movie which could set up some future plotlines, then start the series). But doing a new series which debuts in the form of padded-out but lower-budget retellings of two movies, followed by an arc which was basically a retread of something they'd done 5 times before, then followed by something which could have easily been done as a movie... It's very unnecessary.
Super began justifying its existence with the filler material after the Black arc, and has basically proven its worth since then, so I would say that now they've actually got some legitimate inspiration, and are able to output some creative, and proper Dragon Ball, it should very much exist. But, even though the U6 tournament was pretty decent, and the Black arc had its moments, the Black arc should have been a movie, and they should have started the Super anime with the fillers after the Black arc.
The way Super was handled initially was totally unnecessary, and a blatant cash grab. Say what you will about Kai, at least it wasn't literally just a low-budget version of material that had first been seen a mere 2 years prior.

So, in short: DBZ, definitely. GT, yeah. Super, just about now that they've hit their stride.

[floofychan333]

DBZ needed to be there so the franchise could go international. I'd still love the series without DBZ but it's become so integral that there's really no seeing the franchise without it. GT sucked as everyone says but it could be considered a messup that taught us how not to screw up. Super is necessary to a lesser extent because DB has already achieved a lot but bringing it around the world (and THIS MEANS YOU, CANADA) would get a new generation of fans into it. Except Canada because we're too busy airing shitty shit to even consider Super on air, which means no fans under my age. And very few my age in the country. Sorry for my rant, I just haven't said this in a while.

[KBABZ]

For me, any new story or arc needs to justify itself from a story perspective as to why it exists. For Shonen that tends to be "OMG a more powerful opponent!", but I felt that the Saiyan and Namek arcs of Z did a pretty good job of doing that. We get to learn more about Goku and his race, and we're given interesting new character dynamics with Vegeta and how he feels around Goku. The characters go to space for the first time and the Dragon World gets larger as a result, and the backstory of the Saiyans is given closure with the ascent to Super Saiyan and Frieza's defeat. The Android arc introduced a bunch of new characters like Trunks and 18, the story goes on a global scale, and Cell is an interesting villain too... until the Cell Games and it all falls apart. The Buu Saga I have a hard time justifying, because while it does introduce characters like Videl and Goten, and Vegeta's character arc is given closure, it ultimately goes toward nothing and gets into the usual fight routine to defeat the villain, something made even worse if you've seen any of the movies.

(speaking of which, are the movies nessecary, outside of the TV Specials, BoG and RoF?)

Speaking of justifying the story, I always felt like the 23rd Tournament was the weakest of the three simply because we're fighting Piccolo again, which always felt less interesting to me than King Piccolo's confrontation, and we've seen the Tournament arc format twice before and this one has no changes to that format. And for the anime, the incessant use of the Piccolo music set gets extremely tiring. I think Toriyama felt it was getting tired as well because he dropped the "Dragon Ball > Tournament > Dragon Ball" leapfrog stories afterwards. In retrospect, I think the story would have still worked if the 23rd Tournament never happened and we skipped the Kami training and the Tournament, jumping straight to Raditz (although you do lose establishing Piccolo Jr. as a villainous character). I also don't have that much love for the Baba Saga because it feels like it's stalling the end of the Red Ribbon arc with a mini Tournament.

[Timetraveller]

Edit: Deleted duplicate

[Timetraveller]

I'm glad all of them exist. Yes, even GT. I don't particularly like it, but some aspects of it are good and as a kid I remember watching it just to wait for SSJ4 to appear. The first two episodes were also entertaining, but after those the show only gets decent when Baby goes to Earth. Afterwards it was nothing outstanding but still somewhat entertaining. I consider Super to be much better though.
As for Z, I love it. Almost everyone loves it. I wouldn't love Dragon Ball as much if Toriyama ended it after the 23rd BT. And I wouldn't be the only one.

I'm the complete opposite. No amount of recency bias would change my opinion that Super's the worst DB material out of all the series. Could you imagine the backlash that Super would have gotten if it came out after Z instead of GT? Goku's new form that he achieves offscreen is super saiyan with blue hair and he loses every fight in this new form to the point where fans have to speculate that he's holding back or toying with his opponents. To me it's a complete mess. That being said I'm glad Super came out. It's renewed a lot of interest in the series even if it hasn't reached the levels of success that DBZ did in the West. I know I'm the only one of my friends who still watches Super. We all watched DBZ growing up.

Another positive effect of Super existing is the increase in GT fans. You go onto any GT video or SSJ4 video and you'll see the comments are overwhelmingly positive. This would never have happened a decade ago.

At the end of the day more DBZ content is always good. For everyone that hated DB, there's DBZ and GT. For everyone that likes a bit of DB with the fighting of DBZ (and isn't too fussed about quality), there's DBS.

[ABED]

At the end of the day more DBZ content is always good.

Why? What if new content is terrible?

This would never have happened a decade ago. For everyone that hated DB, there's DBZ and GT.

Why is this a good thing? Are you implying DBGT has better fighting than DB? I hardly see how people liking GT more because they are disappointed in Super is a good thing. The way you put it makes it seem like they are different shows. It's like saying "If you don't like the early seasons of 24, there are the later seasons. Both DB and 24 are serialized stories.

None of it needs to exist.

[Totamo]

At the end of the day more DBZ content is always good.

Why? What if new content is terrible?

This would never have happened a decade ago. For everyone that hated DB, there's DBZ and GT.

Why is this a good thing? Are you implying DBGT has better fighting than DB? I hardly see how people liking GT more because they are disappointed in Super is a good thing. The way you put it makes it seem like they are different shows. It's like saying "If you don't like the early seasons of 24, there are the later seasons. Both DB and 24 are serialized stories.

None of it needs to exist.

Dragon ball are dragon ball z are almost like different shows. Comedic aspect is mostly gone as is the adventure and the martial arts.

[ABED]

At the end of the day more DBZ content is always good.

Why? What if new content is terrible?

This would never have happened a decade ago. For everyone that hated DB, there's DBZ and GT.

Why is this a good thing? Are you implying DBGT has better fighting than DB? I hardly see how people liking GT more because they are disappointed in Super is a good thing. The way you put it makes it seem like they are different shows. It's like saying "If you don't like the early seasons of 24, there are the later seasons. Both DB and 24 are serialized stories.

None of it needs to exist.

Dragon ball are dragon ball z are almost like different shows. Comedic aspect is mostly gone as is the adventure and the martial arts.

They aren't. It's just a story at a different point. DB changed over time. This misconception is wrong and makes me think you didn't watch DB at all, otherwise you would know that the last two arcs are VERY much like DBZ. Even DBZ's tone changes quite a bit over time.

[Timetraveller]

At the end of the day more DBZ content is always good.

Why? What if new content is terrible?

This would never have happened a decade ago. For everyone that hated DB, there's DBZ and GT.

Why is this a good thing? Are you implying DBGT has better fighting than DB? I hardly see how people liking GT more because they are disappointed in Super is a good thing. The way you put it makes it seem like they are different shows. It's like saying "If you don't like the early seasons of 24, there are the later seasons. Both DB and 24 are serialized stories.

None of it needs to exist.

No. I'm saying GT lacks the lightheartedness and comedy of DB. It was more like DBZ. DB and DBZ were very different shows.

[ABED]

They weren't different shows. They were the same story at different points. DB constantly evolved. DB isn't all Pilaf arc in tone. And GT starts off VERY similar in tone to early DB. This makes me think you haven't watched DB, at least not in its entirety.

[Totamo]

Why? What if new content is terrible?

Why is this a good thing? Are you implying DBGT has better fighting than DB? I hardly see how people liking GT more because they are disappointed in Super is a good thing. The way you put it makes it seem like they are different shows. It's like saying "If you don't like the early seasons of 24, there are the later seasons. Both DB and 24 are serialized stories.

None of it needs to exist.

Dragon ball are dragon ball z are almost like different shows. Comedic aspect is mostly gone as is the adventure and the martial arts.

They aren't. It's just a story at a different point. DB changed over time. This misconception is wrong and makes me think you didn't watch DB at all, otherwise you would know that the last two arcs are VERY much like DBZ. Even DBZ's tone changes quite a bit over time.

No they aren't. The 23rd budokai is focused on gags and martial arts. Yeah, the world is in danger but its all about the tournament.


The piccolo daimao arc is closet thing we got but yajirobe eats a person and the pilaf gang are still around and king piccolo uses the lottery to decide a city's destruction.


Do you see how the gags are still around and martial arts are the primary focus of combat and not ki blasts.


I can make a list of 100 things Z made drastically different from ball, beginning with Goku's characterization and origins.

[ABED]

The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai isn't ABOUT the gags. There's humor, just like there is in all of DB/Z/GT, but that arc is building towards the very brutal and bloody final confrontation between Goku and Piccolo. DBZ has the Ginyu Force and Majin Buu. Your implication that comedy isn't present in DBZ is ridiculous.

not ki blasts.

Ki blasts are a form of martial arts in that world. It's another example of how the story expanded. DB didn't go from 0 to 60 in no time flat. It was a constantly evolving story, even through DBZ. The Buu arc is FILLED with humor.

the world is in danger but its all about the tournament.

So? In DBZ, Goku allows the Cyborgs to be created in order to have a fight. It's not a superhero show. Goku putting the world in danger for the sake of the fight is present in DBZ as well. That's who he is. He values a good fight above the fate of the world.

I can make a list of 100 things Z made drastically different from ball, beginning with Goku's characterization and origins.

You don't seem to understand the nature of the show. Goku's origin never changes. It's left unexplored until the Saiyan arc. Goku's characterization doesn't change in the way you make it seem. He loves a fight and wants to be the best in DB and DBZ. That fact never changes.

The piccolo daimao arc is closet thing we got but yajirobe eats a person and the pilaf gang are still around and king piccolo uses the lottery to decide a city's destruction.

Ginyu turns into a frog and Buu turns people into candy! I also fail to see how Piccolo's method of decision making about what city to destroy makes it tonally different from DBZ.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Z was neccessary since it is the same story as DB. After all in the manga, there was no distinctions between the two.

GT while had it faults (a lot really), had a better ending then I felt with Z and lot of the villians and transformations due make cool playble characters in video games.

As for Super, if they jumped right into the U6 arc, then I probably be like the series more. WHile their were good ideas, I felt like they could have been executed way tighter then it should have been.