Gotenks' Strength

[Hugo Boss]

[...] Gohan > Super Boo ≥ Gotenks (post-training) > Pure Boo > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Super Saiyan 3 Goku (for all practical purposes) ≥ Fat Boo > Base Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Vegeta [...]

Does the story make sense any other way?

I think it does make sense the way you put. The other way is simply sticking with the notion that Goku didn’t fight seriously against the fat Boo, which gives room for him being much stronger and for (Pure) Majin Boo being the strongest version if someone wishes so.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The daizenshuu simply says gotenks in general. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. So vegeta>pre rosat gotenks. There's no debate to be had about it being specific to a certain form of gotenks. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. full stop.

That and there's no such thing as "initial super boo". He never powered up again after he was formed.

Super boos gap over ssj3 goku doesn't really matter. He could be a million times stronger(he isn't). Pure boo is by default stronger than him.

Pure boo>super boo=ssj3 gotenks>ssj3 goku>fat boo>ssj2 vegeta>pre rosat gotenks.

[dragonball0900]

The daizenshuu simply says gotenks in general. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. So vegeta>pre rosat gotenks. There's no debate to be had about it being specific to a certain form of gotenks. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. full stop.

That and there's no such thing as "initial super boo". He never powered up again after he was formed.

Super boos gap over ssj3 goku doesn't really matter. He could be a million times stronger(he isn't). Pure boo is by default stronger than him.

Pure boo>super boo=ssj3 gotenks>ssj3 goku>fat boo>ssj2 vegeta>pre rosat gotenks.

The thing that you're ignoring are all the statements shown in the story. If SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) was below Vegeta, that wouldn't make sense with what we are told in the story. Piccolo never said SSJ Gotenks didn't have a chance against Fat Buu, and was only worried about it when Super Buu comes.

Then we have Piccolo and Trunks' statements, yes there is no initial Super Buu, but before Super Buu fights SSJ Gotenks in the ROSAT they didn't know Super Buu's full strenght since Trunks said that base Gotenks would be equal to that Buu (therefore stronger than Fat Buu), while Piccolo also says that Gotenks in base might have a chance against Super Buu. Not only it proves that Super Buu was underestimated (as such they didn't know his full strenght), but it also proves that it was base Gotenks the one that is above Vegeta.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The daizenshuu simply says gotenks in general. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. So vegeta>pre rosat gotenks. There's no debate to be had about it being specific to a certain form of gotenks. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. full stop.

Vegeta vs Boo in a nutshell:

Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P2.3
Piccolo: “Even Ve-Vegeta absolutely can’t scratch that thing…”

Goku about Gotenks:

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.

That and there's no such thing as "initial super boo". He never powered up again after he was formed.

He went from being manageable by Base Gotenks to fighting evenly with SSJ3 Gotenks. Not to mention Piccolo and Gotenks being literally blown away by Boo's tantrum after Piccolo destroys the Rosat door.

boos gap over ssj3 goku doesn't really matter. He could be a million times stronger(he isn't). Pure boo is by default stronger than him.

Pure boo>super boo=ssj3 gotenks>ssj3 goku>fat boo>ssj2 vegeta>pre rosat gotenks.

How's Pure Boo stronger than Super when he fought evenly with Goku, who admited to be no match for Super?

[Hugo Boss]

How's Pure Boo stronger than Super when he fought evenly with Goku, who admited to be no match for Super?

It could be two things. Goku is no match for Majin Boo or he doesn’t have the stamina to beat him. I like the second option. Though, either way Goku loses in a match with no outside help.

[Cipher]

[...] Gohan > Super Boo ≥ Gotenks (post-training) > Pure Boo > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Super Saiyan 3 Goku (for all practical purposes) ≥ Fat Boo > Base Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Vegeta [...]

Does the story make sense any other way?

I think it does make sense the way you put. The other way is simply sticking with the notion that Goku didn’t fight seriously against the fat Boo, which gives room for him being much stronger and for (Pure) Majin Boo being the strongest version if someone wishes so.

I'm ... not sure the story allows for that. It certainly allows for Goku being stronger than Pure Boo at his theoretical full power, but since he can't bring it out in his living body, it's kind of moot.

I don't see anyway it allows for Pure Boo being the strongest, when Goku was afraid for his life to even try fighting Super Boo, but thinks he has a shot against the smaller version. I know the anime muddies this, but the manga is pretty unambiguous.

The daizenshuu simply says gotenks in general. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. So vegeta>pre rosat gotenks. There's no debate to be had about it being specific to a certain form of gotenks. Gotenks didn't surpass vegeta until he went into the rosat. full stop.

Certainly you're welcome to think this, but it's really privileging the guidebook over what we get in the actual story. I maintain no one could come out of a fresh read or watch, without knowing the Daizenshuu exists, and think Super Saiyan Gotenks would be weaker than Vegeta, even before Trunks and Goten undergo their training. It doesn't match up with Piccolo's expectation that they have a shot, nor with Goku's expectation that the fusion will be strong enough to beat Boo. Characters who know Vegeta just failed also believe Gotenks, even before training, has a chance.

Guide books are nice and all, but I don't see the point in contorting what we get in the series itself to fit them. If one really wants to have them line up, base Gotenks fits the bill perfectly, but it's not necessary that they match in the first place.

[Hugo Boss]

[...] Gohan > Super Boo ≥ Gotenks (post-training) > Pure Boo > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Super Saiyan 3 Goku (for all practical purposes) ≥ Fat Boo > Base Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Vegeta [...]

Does the story make sense any other way?

I think it does make sense the way you put. The other way is simply sticking with the notion that Goku didn’t fight seriously against the fat Boo, which gives room for him being much stronger and for (Pure) Majin Boo being the strongest version if someone wishes so.

I'm ... not sure the story allows for that. It certainly allows for Goku being stronger than Pure Boo at his theoretical full power, but since he can't bring it out in his living body, it's kind of moot.

I don't see anyway it allows for Pure Boo being the strongest, when Goku was afraid for his life to even try fighting Super Boo, but thinks he has a shot against the smaller version. I know the anime muddies this, but the manga is pretty unambiguous.

I understand it’s difficult to visualize it in the manga, but I think that after the Potara wore off, Goku and Vegeta might not have enough stamina to fight Majin Boo, which possibly explain why they didn’t go past Super Saiyan, even when Majin Boo threw that energy ball at them and destroyed the Earth. Of course, they thought initially it would be worthy a shot when he became smaller, but this leads us back to the idea that Majin Boo’s power is unpredictable. Then, some “x” time passed until they fought again in the Kaioshin realm, where I presume they recovered their stamina.

[dragonball0900]

I understand it’s difficult to visualize it in the manga, but I think that after the Potara wore off, Goku and Vegeta might not have enough stamina to fight Majin Boo, which possibly explain why they didn’t go past Super Saiyan, even when Majin Boo threw that energy ball at them and destroyed the Earth. Of course, they thought initially it would be worthy a shot when he became smaller, but this leads us back to the idea that Majin Boo’s power is unpredictable. Then, some “x” time passed until they fought again in the Kaioshin realm, where I presume they recovered their stamina.

There's no statement about their stamina at all, nor it was implied. I don't think there's really need to come up with that assumption if it's not even told in the story, their staminas could still be very well unchanged.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The thing that you're ignoring are all the statements shown in the story. If SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) was below Vegeta, that wouldn't make sense with what we are told in the story. Piccolo never said SSJ Gotenks didn't have a chance against Fat Buu, and was only worried about it when Super Buu comes

Piccolo didn't say anything about ssj gotenks beating boo either.

Then we have Piccolo and Trunks' statements, yes there is no initial Super Buu, but before Super Buu fights SSJ Gotenks in the ROSAT they didn't know Super Buu's full strenght since Trunks said that base Gotenks would be equal to that Buu (therefore stronger than Fat Buu), while Piccolo also says that Gotenks in base might have a chance against Super Buu. Not only it proves that Super Buu was underestimated (as such they didn't know his full strenght), but it also proves that it was base Gotenks the one that is above Vegeta.

Except base gotenks was never shown to be as powerful as any form of boo. This isn't really hard evidence. It's just your interpretation of the events. Boo was never shown powering up after he was formed, so he was always at one level of strength. Gotenks thought he could fight that level of strength in base. Then it's shown that he can't, so the statements made on this are moot. So I'm taking it as gotenks being overestimated.

The only conclusive bits on gotenks' strength are the daizenshuus statement on his pre rosat strength and how strong he is as an ssj3.

Vegeta vs Boo in a nutshell:

Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P2.3
Piccolo: “Even Ve-Vegeta absolutely can’t scratch that thing…”

Goku about Gotenks:

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.

Doesn't prove that gotenks before the rosat is stronger than vegeta. Either way, the daizenshuu makes a direct statement on this, so any interpretation you're making from this is moot.

He went from being manageable by Base Gotenks to fighting evenly with SSJ3 Gotenks. Not to mention Piccolo and Gotenks being literally blown away by Boo's tantrum after Piccolo destroys the Rosat door.

How's Pure Boo stronger than Super when he fought evenly with Goku, who admited to be no match for Super?

Super boo was never manageable by base gotenks, hence him being tanked by super boo whom had never powered up after he was formed.

Because pure boo is stated to be stronger. That and goku isn't equal to pure boo. He would give super boo the same exact fight he gave to pure boo.

[Hugo Boss]

I understand it’s difficult to visualize it in the manga, but I think that after the Potara wore off, Goku and Vegeta might not have enough stamina to fight Majin Boo, which possibly explain why they didn’t go past Super Saiyan, even when Majin Boo threw that energy ball at them and destroyed the Earth. Of course, they thought initially it would be worthy a shot when he became smaller, but this leads us back to the idea that Majin Boo’s power is unpredictable. Then, some “x” time passed until they fought again in the Kaioshin realm, where I presume they recovered their stamina.

There's no statement about their stamina at all, nor it was implied. I don't think there's really need to come up with that assumption if it's not even told in the story, their staminas could still be very well unchanged.

I believe defusing is probably an effect of energy consumption to the limit and it could be a non-exhaustive reason, though not mentioned. I don’t need it to be spelled out everytime stamina is a problem. But that’s only my opinion though.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Doesn't prove that gotenks before the rosat is stronger than vegeta. Either way, the daizenshuu makes a direct statement on this, so any interpretation you're making from this is moot.

Of course it does. Goku said Gotenks would be powerful enough if the boys perfected fusion, and they did perfect fusion. Not to mention Piccolo gives the ok to Gotenks' power and only asks for little speed demonstration before having them rest and then send them to fight.

The Daizenshuu is a guidebook and does not hold as much value as the original work.

http://web.archive.org/web/201109250406 ... tenshinhan

Here the Daizenshuu states Tenshinhan fought #19, even though this was never shown. So because it's a direct statement from the Daizenshuu any other interpretation is moot?

Super boo was never manageable by base gotenks, hence him being tanked by super boo whom had never powered up after he was formed.

He was supposed too, though. Either he did a silent power up or both Piccolo and Gotenks sensed Boo's power wrongly because he was not fighting.

Because pure boo is stated to be stronger. That and goku isn't equal to pure boo. He would give super boo the same exact fight he gave to pure boo.

He's stated to be weaker than Super Boo though:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3-6
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”

Pure Boo fought evenly with Goku and even tried to use Candy Beam on him. If he was much stronger than Goku, their fight would be no Vegeta's or Mr Boo's.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Doesn't prove that gotenks before the rosat is stronger than vegeta. Either way, the daizenshuu makes a direct statement on this, so any interpretation you're making from this is moot.

Of course it does. Goku said Gotenks would be powerful enough if the boys perfected fusion, and they did perfect fusion. Not to mention Piccolo gives the ok to Gotenks' power and only asks for little speed demonstration before having them rest and then send them to fight.

The Daizenshuu is a guidebook and does not hold as much value as the original work.

http://web.archive.org/web/201109250406 ... tenshinhan

Here the Daizenshuu states Tenshinhan fought #19, even though this was never shown. So because it's a direct statement from the Daizenshuu any other interpretation is moot?

Super boo was never manageable by base gotenks, hence him being tanked by super boo whom had never powered up after he was formed.

He was supposed too, though. Either he did a silent power up or both Piccolo and Gotenks sensed Boo's power wrongly because he was not fighting.

Because pure boo is stated to be stronger. That and goku isn't equal to pure boo. He would give super boo the same exact fight he gave to pure boo.

He's stated to be weaker than Super Boo though:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3-6
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”

Pure Boo fought evenly with Goku and even tried to use Candy Beam on him. If he was much stronger than Goku, their fight would be no Vegeta's or Mr Boo's.

They perfected fusion and managed to fight on par with super boo. Piccolo didn't say that gotenks was stronger than fat boo, so it's moot. No evidence whatsoever that gotenks daizenshuu entry is a mistake.

As far as base gotenks vs boo, it's just your assumption and you can't prove it. Your proposing this convoluted idea of super boos ki being sensed wrong when there's no implication of that and there's a simpler conclusion of gotenks being overestimated. Either way it doesn't matter. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that piccolo and trunks were wrong.

Don't know why your bringing up what vegeta thinks will happen when there are multiple statements blatantly saying that pure boo is the strongest boo. All those statements hold validity over what you think pure boos fight with goku suggests.

[dragonball0900]

Piccolo didn't say anything about ssj gotenks beating boo either.

You said it yourself. Piccolo was worried about Base Gotenks fighting Fat Buu and we had direct statements about it. Yet when Gotenks was SSJ, Piccolo was only worried about the time limit, he was in no circumstances worried about SSJ Gotenks being weaker than Fat Buu. Piccolo later got worried about SSJ Gotenks' strength when Super Buu came and had to use the ROSAT because of that. Before Super Buu, everyone was pretty confident that Gotenks in SSJ could defeat Fat Buu and noone, not even Piccolo, were planning to use the ROSAT at that point, indicating that SSJ Gotenks was already stronger than Fat Buu before the ROSAT.

Except base gotenks was never shown to be as powerful as any form of boo. This isn't really hard evidence. It's just your interpretation of the events. Boo was never shown powering up after he was formed, so he was always at one level of strength. Gotenks thought he could fight that level of strength in base. Then it's shown that he can't, so the statements made on this are moot. So I'm taking it as gotenks being overestimated.

The only conclusive bits on gotenks' strength are the daizenshuus statement on his pre rosat strength and how strong he is as an ssj3.

It's not my interpretation, it's clearly stated on the manga quotes that I gave on my first post. Both Gotenks and Piccolo thought that Base Gotenks can manage to defeat Super Buu, the fact that they thought that implies heavily that Base Gotenks (post ROSAT) was already much stronger than Fat Buu, who was said to be weaker than Super Buu. I mean come on, why would Base Gotenks (post ROSAT) be weaker than Fat Buu if Trunks thought that Base Gotenks would be more or less equal to Super Buu and Piccolo had some hope that the same Base Gotenks can defeat Super Buu? I won't say that Super Buu initially had less power than later, but it was more like a Super Buu level that Piccolo and the kids expected, which is far less than his true power.

Piccolo also said that SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) won't have a chance against Super Buu, yet he had some hope on Base Gotenks (post ROSAT), and Trunks said that Base Gotenks (post ROSAT) would be equal to a Buu that's stronger than SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT). That means that SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) is less than Base Gotenks (post ROSAT).

As I said multiple times, the Daizenshuu could've referred to Base Gotenks, I mean look at this way, Base Gotenks can easily be below Vegeta and later surpassed him after the ROSAT without contradicting the story quotes, and everything will fit just fine.

Don't know why your bringing up what vegeta thinks will happen when there are multiple statements blatantly saying that pure boo is the strongest boo. All those statements hold validity over what you think pure boos fight with goku suggests.

Pure Buu is not the strongest. That's just made up quotes by the anime. It was said in the manga that SSJ3 Goku, even with SSJ2 Vegeta's help, would be no match for Super Buu at all, and would be stomped easily. Meanwhile, Pure Buu fought evenly with SSJ3 Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They perfected fusion and managed to fight on par with super boo. Piccolo didn't say that gotenks was stronger than fat boo, so it's moot. No evidence whatsoever that gotenks daizenshuu entry is a mistake.

The summary for Vol. 25 stated the boys have perfect fusion before the Rosat, though:

Long, long ago. Son Goku set out on a journey in search of the seven dragon balls, which summon Shenlong when assembled, and gathered them all after a grand adventure. However, the balls were almost used for evil purposes, and ended up granting a stupid wish. After granting a wish Shenlong wouldn't appear again for over a year. In the meantime, Goku trained under Kame-sennin, and set out in search of the balls one more.

Time passed...The wizard Babidi awakened Majin Boo, who began killing all life on Earth. In order to defeat this mighty foe, Goten and Trunks at last perfected Fusion. However, just as Majin Boo befriended Satan and was about to give up killing, a terrible change occurred...!!

viewtopic.php?p=969068#p969564

Piccolo also tells Boo the boys were supposed to be fighting once they woke up:


I mean, everything points out to Gotenks being as strong as Goku predicted, except the vague Daizenshuu entry. "Surpassing Vegeta and the others". Which others? Gohan? Piccolo? #18? Kuririn? Was Gotenks weaker than all those people before Rosat?
The only way of having both the manga and the Daizenshuu going together is by assuming DarkPrince's interpretation of refering to Gotenks achieving SSJ3 and surpassing Vegeta's form count, what i doubt since the Daizenshuu entry specifically mentions strength.

As far as base gotenks vs boo, it's just your assumption and you can't prove it. Your proposing this convoluted idea of super boos ki being sensed wrong when there's no implication of that and there's a simpler conclusion of gotenks being overestimated. Either way it doesn't matter. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that piccolo and trunks were wrong.

Overstimated or not, they wouldn't have any hope at all if Gotenks was still below his SSJ form as he would be absolutely no match against Boo.

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…!

Don't know why your bringing up what vegeta thinks will happen when there are multiple statements blatantly saying that pure boo is the strongest boo. All those statements hold validity over what you think pure boos fight with goku suggests.

Yet you didn't post any... the Anime doesn't count by the way.

The Vegeta statement i posted and Goku's feat of fighting evenly with Boo holds way more weight than your unbacked words. I mean, at least post the multiple statements you have mentioned.