Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 5 - DB Episodes 21-25

[Matches Malone]

Held off? You think this many episodes in would've been too soon to introduce those new concepts?

If not held off then done differently. For starters, SsjG would've probably been called Saiyan god to avoid calling its successor something that makes no sense like ssjgssj. I think the multiverse concept may not have been introduced at all or limited to 3-4 universes. Beerus would probably remain the same, with a change made about how much power he was using in his fight with Goku from 70% to maybe 10%.

[MyVisionity]

"Lanfang-san"
I don't think I've ever seen this episode subtitled, so this is my first time becoming aware of the sub spelling of the character I previously knew under her dub name of Ranfan...
Toriyama's comments as listed in Herms' name pun roundup: “When I was working in an advertising company, female underwear was called ‘Ran-Fan’. This comes from an abbreviation of ‘Lingerie and Foundation’. The character has that sort of image.”
Given this, I can see the choice to go with "Lan", but "Fang" seems like on odd choice there...
I don't think this name adapts into English at all tbh, however you spell it.

It looks like Simmons chose to use the "L" in order to preserve at least part of the pun, but then took it a step further by turning it into a Chinese name for some reason.

lol. Roshi dealt with Yamucha real quick. Forgot how quick that was. I do like his weird wind technique there. And we never really see that wind technique, nor his mind-reading, ever again.

That wind technique was just Roshi using his Ki like a breeze of air to knock Yamcha out of the ring. Probably no different from similar air-like attacks used by other characters in the series.

The wind blowing hand swipe did make one other appearance: it's how Goku non-lethally removes Anonymous from the ring so that she'll reveal her identity (Chi-Chi, of course).

While similar, I believe the attack that Goku uses is specifically a version of the attack that Daimao uses in their fight. Ma Junior comments that Goku was using a Mazoku-like technique.

[KBABZ]

The wind blowing hand swipe did make one other appearance: it's how Goku non-lethally removes Anonymous from the ring so that she'll reveal her identity (Chi-Chi, of course).

While similar, I believe the attack that Goku uses is specifically a version of the attack that Daimao uses in their fight. Ma Junior comments that Goku was using a Mazoku-like technique.

What's the different? (no really, I'm genuinely wondering what it is and I need an explainer)

[MyVisionity]

The wind blowing hand swipe did make one other appearance: it's how Goku non-lethally removes Anonymous from the ring so that she'll reveal her identity (Chi-Chi, of course).

While similar, I believe the attack that Goku uses is specifically a version of the attack that Daimao uses in their fight. Ma Junior comments that Goku was using a Mazoku-like technique.

What's the different? (no really, I'm genuinely wondering what it is and I need an explainer)

It looks like Roshi is concentrating his Ki into his hands before he does a swiping motion that sends the gust of wind at Yamcha. Goku just pulls his fist back and then thrusts forward releasing a shot of air pressure straight at Chichi.

Goku's attack seems much more forceful, violent, and sudden to me. And you can't actually see his Ki being charged, unlike in Roshi's attack, although that's really more for the audience's benefit. Of course the end result is the same in both.

[KBABZ]

While similar, I believe the attack that Goku uses is specifically a version of the attack that Daimao uses in their fight. Ma Junior comments that Goku was using a Mazoku-like technique.

What's the different? (no really, I'm genuinely wondering what it is and I need an explainer)

It looks like Roshi is concentrating his Ki into his hands before he does a swiping motion that sends the gust of wind at Yamcha. Goku just pulls his fist back and then thrusts forward releasing a shot of air pressure straight at Chichi.

Goku's attack seems much more forceful, violent, and sudden to me. And you can't actually see his Ki being charged, unlike in Roshi's attack, although that's really more for the audience's benefit. Of course the end result is the same in both.

Gotcha. I'd say Goku's one is a variant on the same idea, and it's possible Roshi saw the technique from Daimao back in the day. I'd say Goku not needing to gather his ki is an indication of just how much he's surpassed Roshi by this point.

[Robo4900]

It looks like Simmons chose to use the "L" in order to preserve at least part of the pun, but then took it a step further by turning it into a Chinese name for some reason.

Indeed.

Though, do note that it's Mandelin, not Simmons; Simmons was busy subbing Z and some of the movies at the time Funi were doing DB, so Clyde Mandelin subbed the DB series.

[MyVisionity]

Though, do note that it's Mandelin, not Simmons; Simmons was busy subbing Z and some of the movies at the time Funi were doing DB, so Clyde Mandelin subbed the DB series.

It was Simmons who started subbing DB with this arc, episodes 14 through 28. Then for whatever reason he stopped and Mandelin was brought in to do eps 1 through 13 and 29 through 153. I don't know all of the details. You can tell it's Simmons because his usual style of translating becomes apparent at the beginning of the arc and is noticeable throughout.

[Robo4900]

Decided to marathon all three remaining episodes at once this morning.

Episode 23 - He’s Here! The Mighty Foe Giran

The cut from everyone cheering Goku on to being very annoyed at the weather is great. I forget if this is a smash cut or a match cut, or... One of the other kinds. But regardless, it's funny.
Also, there's a giraffe and like a dinosaur or something in the crowd running away!


So many little things make this arc so great.

One could probably say it's silly to postpone the match due to rain, but at the same time, a slippery arena could cause some serious accidents, and of course, with no one sticking around to spectate, it's only right that they'd suspend it.
Though with that latter note, one wonders why the 23rd Tenkaichi wasn't suspended when everyone ran away from seeing Piccolo.

Yay, the Golden Harvest title card again!!
I love the Golden Harvest title card. I wish they'd brought it back for the tournaments in Z. I realise the Boo arc and the epilogue weren't full-on tournament arcs, but it would've been nice to call back to the tournament arcs in that way.

Also, hey! Another use of Toy Train Terminal!

I know this whole rain sequence is anime-only/filler, but I do enjoy them spending a moment to big up Giran, and seeing the dragon team (including Kuririn ) sat 'round a table at the pub is great.
Also, the joke that the big, strong, tough guy Giran orders milk from the bar is solid. Though not totally unrealistic; full fat milk is quite good for you, so I could imagine a martial artist choosing to drink that at a bar. Also, Giran wearing a huge raincoat is its own little bit of comedy of the mundane; big-ass monster dude, but of course he has a raincoat.
The "no fighting outside the ring" rule makes a lot of sense.

Another hilarious cut of a crowd shot; from upside down in response to Goku taking a nap, to them cheering for him.
I'm a big fan of dumb cuts like that.

Huh. Giran punches Goku out, he hits a wall, Giran says "I've won", then we cut to him looking shocked, THEN Goku gets up... I wonder if those last two shots were out of order; we don't see any suggestion that Goku's going to get up until after the shot of Giran looking shocked. Seems a bit odd to me, at least.

I don't know why the tournament organisers let Goku use the Kinto'Un, it is a pretty clear rules violation, but... Oh well.

I like Goku growing his tail back.

Damn, very rude of Goku to break the wall to test his strength.

Giran giving up is great.

Episode 24 - Kuririn's Desperate Offensive And Defensive Battle

I like the little interview with Goku and Kuririn.
Oh right, Kuririn doesn't know Goku has a tail. The surprises of how weird Goku and his friends are will never end for Kuririn.
I like the announcer (and audience?) assuming Goku's lack of knowledge is a deliberate comedic act.
As far as retcons go, "Goku didn't know that twelve came after eleven, rather than fourteen" is about the most justified, understandable one I can recall in the franchise, to be honest.

Kuririn: "Besides, I've never even heard of a human who had a tail!"
toriyama planned goku being an alien out from the beginning. confirmed.

I love Roshi falling over at the announcer's "How incredible that [Roshi] would still be alive!"

The little "I have no choice but to tell you the truth... I am... Jackie Chun!" exchange between Roshi and Yamucha is great.
I love the Jackie Chun song and its response. Perfection. The dub kinda ruins it by censoring out all the really weird stuff, and completely changing it to just being kinda lame, but it's still a funny sequence, even there.

Kuririn vs Roshi is utterly great. Probably my favourite of the 21st Tenkaichi fights. The slow-motion recap of the super-fast part is probably my favourite sequence in the entire early portion of the series.

Kuririn throws a pair of panties out onto the ring, which fools Roshi, and leaves him open to an attack... Those panties are an illegal outside tool, for sure.

"Goku! What should I do?"
"Win! All you can do is win!"
Goku, you're really a trove of advice aren't you?

I like the First Of The North Star-esque jab to the neck that immediately knocks Kuririn down.

Episode 25 - Get Up, Goku! The Fearsome Tenkū Pekeji-Ken

This is the first episode in a while where broadcast audio exists (it's publicly available, too. And it's not audio that was stolen or leaked or anything, if anyone has any reservations about that). And man, I forgot how much easier on the ears the broadcast audio is. It's ridiculously more listenable. Next two also have broadcast audio available, as does 29. Sadly, 28's has not surfaced yet. And even more sadly, episode 41 will be the last one with broadcast audio until #153. Let's all hope more turns up in future.

I like this early setup for Goku easily ripping off copying the techniques of others.
And I like him coming up with the tornado technique. Of course, he would later return to this technique after he encounters the six-star Evil Dragon using a similar yet more advanced technique, which he copies to counter it. But IIRC he doesn't get particularly dizzy from it.


What's the point in taking a line and both translating it, and having a romanisation of the line that you're hearing as you're reading the subtitle?
If you're an English-speaker, the only part you'll understand is the translation, and if you understand Japanese, you won't really need the subtitles, and the romanisation wouldn't be particularly helpful... And this isn't the attack name, which are by convention usually romanised... I don't understand this decision.

I dig the fighting in the air.


Wonder if this is the same guy.

Man, I forgot how quickly the matches go by in this tournament. Each match so far has lasted little more than half an episode.

The scenes between Namu and Roshi here are some of the best scenes in all of Dragon Ball.

Also, Roshi gives Namu an empty capsule... How does that work? I thought you had to design things to fit in capsules. How do you put something in an empty capsule?
I don't think we ever see another capsule stated, or otherwise implied or shown, to be empty.

I love the Namu-disguised-as-Roshi gag.
But it does also serve a worthwhile purpose.
Goku: "Then there's other strong people in this world besides Old Man Turtle Hermit..."
Here, we immediately see Roshi's read on Goku and Kuririn confirmed.

I loved these five episodes. I love this whole arc. It's joyful, and fun, and it's got philosophies to impart, and the characters are all really well-handled, and the music is ace, and the visuals are great, every fight is unique and cool... I can't wait for next week's episodes.

It was Simmons who started subbing DB with this arc, episodes 14 through 28. Then for whatever reason he stopped and Mandelin was brought in to do eps 1 through 13 and 29 through 153. I don't know all of the details. You can tell it's Simmons because his usual style of translating becomes apparent at the beginning of the arc and is noticeable throughout.

Ah. I never knew that.
Quite easy to understand why this is, if you look at the messy way Funi distributed the show...
First off, remember that Funi only ever subtitled material for DVD release, so if something wasn't out on DVD, it didn't need subbing, so they wouldn't get it subbed.
Second, remember that Funi had no license to release 1-13 on home video until 2009, when Trimark's sublicense expired and they were able to do the Blue Bricks. Australia didn't have this problem, but I think their DVDs came at least a year or two later than Funi's tended to, so their 1-13 would've come sometime after America's 14-28.
So, when Funi first started doing DVDs of DB, they started with the first Tournament singles, covering episodes 14-28, and presumably had Simmons come in and do that. Then, when it turned out he was too busy, they haded it off to Mandelin, so when it came time to sub 1-13 for Australia (which would later be used for the 2009 DVDs), Mandelin subbed this material too, thus creating this weird inconsistency.

It is also possible that Simmons worked on Funi's in-house translations of DB episodes 1-28, though 1-13's dub scripts were basically reused from the 1995 dub, so Simmons would've only worked on the scenes that were cut there (and even then, it's possible they had usable versions of the scripts/translations used in the 1995 dub for the cut scenes). Funi had originally planned on doing episodes 14-26 with BLT back in '95, but cancelled the episode order before getting there, so they may have had preliminary 1995 scripts of some of those episodes to work off of too, but assuming 1-13 were all that was scripted, it's possible Simmons only stepped in to do full translations of episodes 14-28, then the workload proved too much, so they had him work on Z and other shows, while they had Mandelin come in and take over translation duties on 29+, and then go back to produce the subtitles for the Australian DVDs of 1-13. (Mandelin does suggest in one article he did for Legends Of Localisation that he worked on DB's dub translation, since IIRC the subtitles always said "Piccolo Daimao", whereas here, he says he was told to use the name "King Piccolo", as we see in the dub)

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Never liked Bacterian, or Kuririn's fight against him. I'd skip that episode, but as I'm reviewing the entire series I'll rewatch it for now.

I think we're all going to be watching some stuff we'd skip for a casual viewing here.

That said, there's no shame in skipping over something if you really hate it.

Just after binging the episodes. I was honestly dreading starting it because of the Bacterian fight, I appreciate the skip offer, but I decided to watch it after all. Still not a fan, but it is what it is and it's a small part of the full Dragon Ball original run experience.

I'll have more detailed thoughts on the episodes in due course, but one thing I did think was cool about these fights is that we see at least one of the fighters' different senses being paralyzed. For Kuririn in the Bacterian fight it was his sense of smell (or lack thereof), for Namu vs Ranfan it was sight (heterosexual male sight of course ) and Goku struggled with his sense of touch in the Giran fight.

[Robo4900]

I'm thinking of starting the new thread in a couple of hours. I'd actually completely forgotten it's a Wednesday today.

But, I don't see a ton of discussion of this week's episodes here, so...

I'm gonna start typing the next thread's OP up, but if people want me to hold off for a few days, do say so.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

And with that my rewatch of episodes 21-25 is done.

Reviews right here:

Episode 21 - Watch Out, Kuririn!

Very comedic episode but one where your mileage varies. There was some good wackiness in the first half with Roshi being pushed around (or upwards) by Bulma, Goku asking about vital parts (i.e. balls) to which Ranfan says she has none, and audience cringing at Dog announcer. The latter half of the episode is where the humour is lacking as there is nothing smart or engaging about Bacterian's fighting style. Bacterian comes across ruthless, trying to break Kuririn's neck and back and it's only when he gets a taste of his own medicine we see how fragile he is as a warrior.

Episode 22 - Yamucha vs Jackie Chun


Much better characterization in this episode. Namu's backstory is compelling and realistic in its representation. We see Kuririn and Yamcha's smarts as both are suspicious of Roshi's whereabouts and who he may be. There's also more good character moments with Goku and Giran competing for food and Oolong teasing Bulma over Yamcha being her boyfriend so she can't fancy other men. Once we get to the fights we are caught off guard by Chin's swift style, Yamcha being easily defeated and Ranfan using non-combat techniques to try distract Namu.

Episode 23 - He’s Here! The Mighty Foe Giran

Quite a significant episode as we see Goku's first ever official match. The anticipation is briefly subverted by the sudden rainfall, but this also allows for more character moments. We see Giran being built up, and showing his strength in the bar. Once the sun rises our anticipation is subverted once more by Goku falling asleep. When the fight finally begins Giran plays on Goku's naivety, not acting threatening only to attack when Goku doesn't expect it. Giran flying back after he's swung by Goku comes across as very predictable, as does Goku pouncing back from almost certain ringout with the Kinto Un. In a last ditch effort Giran uses the Guru Guru gum to try immobilize Goku but Goku shows he is strong enough to breakthrough and show off his own strength flipping the temptation to surrender right back to Giran.

Episode 24 - Kuririn’s Desperate Offensive-Defensive Battle

Another great character moments episode. Goku's tail once again becomes the subject of intrigue for Goku and fear for his friends. We also see more of Goku and Kuririn's brotherly bond as they fight over age, and how revered Roshi is once they tell the crowd they trained under him. Yamcha remains determined Jackie Chun isn't who he claims to be, something we begin to admire his dedication to proving. Unfortunately even while pretending to be someone else we see Chun once again distracted by his greatest weakness, and during a fight nonetheless.

Episode 25 - Get Up, Goku! The Fearsome Tenkū Pekeji-Ken

Some great fight choreography with Goku's after image and use of tail. Funnily enough both Goku and Namu end up on the verge of losing with the former getting dizzy and the latter nearly falling. Namu's aerial strike, which Goku ends up flying past only to come down as if he's having fun is also comical. We also get a sweet moment where Goku and Kuririn hug, which furthers their development as childhood friends. Another interesting aspect was the different cultural perspectives we see with Roshi helping Namu attain water. Namu expecting to pay for it is told by Roshi he'd be laughed at for thinking such a thing. I love how this shows how people from different levels of wealth and civilization, much like Goku and Bulma can learn from each other.