How characters train is as important as how strong the characters are

[coola]

Guess having sparring partner/punching bag is pretty important too. While training Gohan, Piccolo went from 408 to 3000 in few months, while in 5 years after 23rd TB, his PL got like 100 higher.

[jjgp1112]

Lettuce not forget that Krillin and the Earthlings jumped from weaker than 23rd TB Piccolo & Goku to Raditz-tier with a year of the same training Goku received for three years. Training has always been an excuse to make the characters as strong as needed to keep up with the power creep. If Frieza's already as strong as a Super Saiyan just from popping out of an egg, I can buy that training would have an insane effect on him.

[coola]

Lettuce not forget that Krillin and the Earthlings jumped from weaker than 23rd TB Piccolo & Goku to Raditz-tier with a year of the same training Goku received for three years. Training has always been an excuse to make the characters as strong as needed to keep up with the power creep. If Frieza's already as strong as a Super Saiyan just from popping out of an egg, I can buy that training would have an insane effect on him.

Yeah, power levels were BS since beginning of Dragon Ball, Turtle Hermit needed three years to snatch Sacred Water from Korin, while it took Goku & co way lesser time, yet secret training between 21st and 22nd TB was enough for Roshi to give Tenshinhan, who was on Goku level, some trouble.

[FoolsGil]

Sure. It's why pretty much everyone not Goku and Vegeta have peaked. There's Yardratan training, there Metamoran fusion training, there's Grand Elder Unlock, there's Whis' insanity training, hell, there has to be someone by this point that could learn Kaioken and Spirit Bomb from King Kai. It's all right there, and yet...

[JulieYBM]

"They meditated and had an emotion arc" is a good enough reason for me to have any character become strong enough to be relevant in a fight.

[Skar]

Lettuce not forget that Krillin and the Earthlings jumped from weaker than 23rd TB Piccolo & Goku to Raditz-tier with a year of the same training Goku received for three years. Training has always been an excuse to make the characters as strong as needed to keep up with the power creep. If Frieza's already as strong as a Super Saiyan just from popping out of an egg, I can buy that training would have an insane effect on him.

To be honest, you could point to any previous inconsistency to argue that it's fine to be taken to any extreme. I guess it depends on how far you would draw the line. It's something that I don't think he would've written in the original series or at least would've written differently since Gohan and Uub were prodigies with huge potential but couldn't train effectively on their own due to their lack of experience.

DBS Broly is basically the same as them because he was living on a dangerous planet and training with his father for decades but his potential was only being realized when he became angry. I don't think it would've been asking too much for an explanation on what differentiated them from other prodigies since they also apparently gained the knowledge of how to maximize their training on their own.

[Grimlock]

there has to be someone by this point that could learn Kaioken and Spirit Bomb from King Kai. It's all right there,...

Blasphemy! Only Goku and Vegeta can get the cool stuff.

[coola]

there has to be someone by this point that could learn Kaioken and Spirit Bomb from King Kai. It's all right there,...

Blasphemy! Only Goku and Vegeta can get the cool stuff.

According to anime filler, if Tenshinhan and Yamcha learnt Kaio-ken, they would be unstoppable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCuVF5TlWMo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRErOvknMVg

[90sDBZ]

I agree with the OP. The explanations for certain characters getting stronger in Super are just plain lazy. It goes against the major theme of the story, that hard work and discipline pay off. I don't need to see specific powerlevel numbers or anything, I just want to feel like hard work and training still mean something. What's the point of Goku and Vegeta putting in countless hours, if any given character can reach their level at any given time just by getting angry?

It also retroactively throws decisions from past arcs into question. If Roshi could get that strong so easily, then why didn't he fight the Saiyans, the Androids, or Cell?

And also why can any character suddenly use the Evil Containment Wave without dying? Previously only Kami and Piccolo could.

[super michael]

Lettuce not forget that Krillin and the Earthlings jumped from weaker than 23rd TB Piccolo & Goku to Raditz-tier with a year of the same training Goku received for three years. Training has always been an excuse to make the characters as strong as needed to keep up with the power creep. If Frieza's already as strong as a Super Saiyan just from popping out of an egg, I can buy that training would have an insane effect on him.

There is one little mistake the one who took care of Goku training was Mr Popo. Kami didn't see Goku training, therefore didn't know his progress. Kami plan was for himself to seal Piccolo, which failed

Kami trained the Z fighters personally.

[super michael]

Take Broly an example his training partner wasn't strong, but the planet he grew up on makes up for his partner being weak. Broly had to survive on a dangerous planet, train with Paragus and the monsters of the world.

Basically the planet that Broly was on is way harder than anything the ROSAT can dish out.

Although Paragus is a Saiyan, I don't know why his power level was low, even though he trained with Broly.

We know Broly wasn't lazy and we know his training was anything but easy.

We can say that Broly was training his entire life.

[BWri]

Yeah, I miss the creative training sessions. If Super had more of those power scaling wouldn't be so much of an issue.

17 is an interesting case. Both remaining Cyborgs are. I would even say, that they aren't really cyborgs but instead mutants because they're altered on a cellular or molecular (can't remember which) level. It's even possible that #17 may have had some of Cell's "cells" bonded to his after being revived. Cell's absorption process for #17 and #18 leaves a lot for interpretation. If #17 was really broken down and bonded to Cell on a molecular level, it's possible he inherited some of his strength or potential for strength.

[ABED]

Broly isn't strong because of his environment is harsh, he gets strong because he throws a hissy fit. It was harsh but he grew accustomed to it. The ROSAT changes so wildly throughout each day, you can't adapt.

[Hugo Boss]

While we are on the subject I was lurking around Dragon Ball official site and found this interview about increasing motor skill acquisition through training under some familiar specific conditions. Quite an interesting research.

[super michael]

Broly isn't strong because of his environment is harsh, he gets strong because he throws a hissy fit. It was harsh but he grew accustomed to it. The ROSAT changes so wildly throughout each day, you can't adapt.

Broly harsh environment contributed to Broly growth in power and stamina, remember they have to rely also on finding and hunting food and drinks.

Lets make a comparison to show the characters training:

Goku - trained with Angels and Deity (Great)
Vegeta - trained with Angels and Deity and Yardrat (Great)
Piccolo - trains alone and with Gohan (Great)
Gohan - trains in gravity chamber and Piccolo (Great)
Freeza - "trains" by beating Tagoma for four month (lame)
Krillin - trains in gym (lame)
Tenshinhan - trains with weakling (lame)
Master Roshi - secret training who never trained with Kami and Mr Popo (lame)
C17 - doesn't train and only protects the island (lame) why isn't Future C17 strong like Present C17
C18 - doesn't train but gained powers (lame)
Broly - trained with Paragus and the monsters of the planet, had to survive the dangerous planet and it bad atmosphere along with hunting and gathering food and drink (Great)

This wasn't a issue with DB/DBZ.

[ABED]

Broly - trained with Paragus and the monsters of the planet, had to survive the dangerous planet and it bad atmosphere along with hunting and gathering food and drink (Great)

No, it's lame. He's grown accustomed to it. He'd be stronger than otherwise, but it doesn't make sense for the kind of gains he made which were mostly on the spot because he got really mad.

[super michael]

Broly - trained with Paragus and the monsters of the planet, had to survive the dangerous planet and it bad atmosphere along with hunting and gathering food and drink (Great)

No, it's lame. He's grown accustomed to it. He'd be stronger than otherwise, but it doesn't make sense for the kind of gains he made which were mostly on the spot because he got really mad.

Fair enough if kid Broly could kill the monsters in his Oozaru form, that means trained Broly should find those monsters like nothing.

So yes I have to agree with you Broly training is lame.

[Anonymous Friend]

It's made up science!

Which part of it exactly is made up? I never once thought that any of it was made up. Exaggerated for fiction, perhaps, compared to real-world capabilities, but still plausible in the most basic and logical sense.

It doesn't have to line up 100% exactly with the real world. Just enough to make sense and be believable.

It's like all those penis grow pills and machines and such, if they truly worked, you don't think those people with be billionaires? Or at least as wealthy a boob surgeons.

If 17 can be a lot stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta from Dr.Gero’s incomplete research on Goku that didn’t go past the Saiyan conflict on earth, I don’t see how him making massive gainz just exercising and drinking plenty of juice and doing plenty of sit ups for 13 years is anymore of a stretch.

I thought it was already a stretch that Gero was able to build cyborgs that powerful but I guess it's not too different than comic book scientists building a suit or robot who could stand up to some top tier superheroes.

With regular training on his own after the Cell saga he technically outdid everyone in the series. Goku and Vegeta needed various types of intense training and multiple transformations to reach this level. I don't think being a prodigy is enough of an explanation since Gohan and Uub were prodigies and likely more potential than 17 but couldn't get very far on their own. 18 occasionally spared Krillin from what we know but wasn't implied to have gotten any stronger since the Cell Games.

Pretty much all sci-fi is just "magic" in disguise. Because for the most part, none of that is how science actually works. But throw on a white coat, start drawing some number on a board, and now we call it science. Especially since most of this requires an aweful amount of energy, and matter.

[Anonymous Friend]

I agree with the OP. The explanations for certain characters getting stronger in Super are just plain lazy. It goes against the major theme of the story, that hard work and discipline pay off. I don't need to see specific powerlevel numbers or anything, I just want to feel like hard work and training still mean something. What's the point of Goku and Vegeta putting in countless hours, if any given character can reach their level at any given time just by getting angry?

It also retroactively throws decisions from past arcs into question. If Roshi could get that strong so easily, then why didn't he fight the Saiyans, the Androids, or Cell?

And also why can any character suddenly use the Evil Containment Wave without dying? Previously only Kami and Piccolo could.

Aren't most of the big conflict resolutions of the entire series asspull duex ex machinas/last second powerup into curbstomb??

[MasenkoHA]

[

Aren't most of the big conflict resolutions of the entire series asspull duex ex machinas/last second powerup into curbstomb??

Not really, no. Goku drinking Super God Water is the only time this statement applies. And even then only really the manga.