Akira Toriyama getting cancelled (not really: contextless, disingenuous social media videos)

[Shaddy]

Yeah, there's nothing new about any of this. Lady Red is a gross short comic and Toriyama has made gross jokes before.

"Cancel culture" is a fake problem made up by bad-faith grifters trying to remove accountability for misconduct, because they like misconduct and want to do more of it. This is a fact.

That said, even if "cancel culture" were a real thing? This would be nothing. This is a nothing on top of more nothing. Dragon Ball is full of gross things, both in and out of universe. One nasty comic from 1987 and an off-color joke that should not be around children's media is not going to do much.

Most of us here are in America, where two years ago it was so unprecedented that a Z-list Dragon Ball voice actor was actually fired for his two decades of sexual harassment and assault allegations from dozens of people that it triggered a targeted harassment campaign that continues to this day. We even still have a thread going because the bogus lawsuit the subject launched was only denied its appeal a week ago.

So in Japan, a much more socially-conservative nation on a corporate and governmental level, is a weaker offense like making objectionable art thirty-five years ago or saying something weird in an interview going to do much to the creator of a franchise worth billions? Shueisha didn't make any meaningful condemnation of the Ruroni Kenshin guy after he was arrested for possession of child pornography!

Toriyama has said weird things, and his work often displays unconscionable politics or worldviews that should be criticized, but I've never known him to hurt anyone, he's just a weird old nerd. He could be hundreds of times grosser than he is and he would not be "canceled".

[VegettoEX]

We're going in a bunch of circles here, but I want to reiterate because I edited it into my last post:

Don't watch these videos. I did so you don't have to. I watched the first one, and based on that I don't need to watch the second one.

The first video is so misleading, so inaccurate, so without context, so transparently disingenuous, that's it's obviously someone who doesn't actually care about the underlying effects of comments like this, doesn't care about other people, and doesn't care about you: they're a nutso, too-much-free-time right-winger trying to manufacture outrage and take advantage of YOU actually caring.

(... to what end? I don't know. To later laugh at the libs? I guess?)

Don't fall for their bullshit.

[JulieYBM]

Oh I agree it is, but again I think this is really an issue that takes aim at Japanese culture and what that implies and at what gounds do we have to make another culture change (where I feel that change need to come from within) *if that change has not already happend*

Just for context, my post wasnt just about his quote but Toriyamas (or atleast 80s Toriyamas) and 80s Japan as a whole.

How does it take aim at Japanese culture? What part of Japanese culture says that it's okay to joke about sexually harassing's one's daughter? I must be missing something here in your posts because I really don't get what point you're trying to make.

Shueisha didn't make any meaningful condemnation of the Ruroni Kenshin guy after he was arrested for possession of child pornography!

To say nothing of continuing to publish his work in magazines aimed at kids or making new live action Rurouni Kenshin films. Or having Oda Ei'ichirou do an interview with him to help rehabilitate his image.

[eledoremassis02]

Oh I agree it is, but again I think this is really an issue that takes aim at Japanese culture and what that implies and at what gounds do we have to make another culture change (where I feel that change need to come from within) *if that change has not already happend*

Just for context, my post wasnt just about his quote but Toriyamas (or atleast 80s Toriyamas) and 80s Japan as a whole.

How does it take aim at Japanese culture? What part of Japanese culture says that it's okay to joke about sexually harassing's one's daughter? I must be missing something here in your posts because I really don't get what point you're trying to make.

It can be seen as late as 1998 (see GTO) where the pervy Principle gets turned on by looking up his daughters skirt (14ish years old?) and later wants to take his family to the ocean so he can see her in a Bikini. It's not taken in any serious context outside of cementing that character as super perverted (more action is taken when he's sexually harassing a female on a train and gets punched in the face for it by the main character *a pervert with a heart of gold*).

I can only guess (again not being in Japan or raised there) but it seems it stems from Japans social conseravitism. It's "boys talk" in a culture where men would bathe with their young daughters (somthing I am not sure is stll done?). Since no actual action was done (that I would assume would be legitimate problem in Japan even then) it just a tossaway "joke".

If your into manga, I do suggest reading Dreamland Japan tho because it gives a good insight into the industry (atleast up till 1996) and does cover things like sexism, racism and authors of manga and doujinshi

[JulieYBM]

Oh I agree it is, but again I think this is really an issue that takes aim at Japanese culture and what that implies and at what gounds do we have to make another culture change (where I feel that change need to come from within) *if that change has not already happend*

Just for context, my post wasnt just about his quote but Toriyamas (or atleast 80s Toriyamas) and 80s Japan as a whole.

How does it take aim at Japanese culture? What part of Japanese culture says that it's okay to joke about sexually harassing's one's daughter? I must be missing something here in your posts because I really don't get what point you're trying to make.

It can be seen as late as 1998 (see GTO) where the pervy Principle gets turned on by looking up his daughters skirt (14ish years old?) and later wants to take his family to the ocean so he can see her in a Bikini. It's not taken in any serious context outside of cementing that character as super perverted (more action is taken when he's sexually harassing a female on a train and gets punched in the face for it by the main character *a pervert with a heart of gold*).

I can only guess (again not being in Japan or raised there) but it seems it stems from Japans social conseravitism. It's "boys talk" in a culture where men would bathe with their young daughters (somthing I am not sure is stll done?). Since no actual action was done (that I would assume would be legitimate problem in Japan even then) it just a tossaway "joke".

If your into manga, I do suggest reading Dreamland Japan tho because it gives a good insight into the industry (atleast up till 1996) and does cover things like sexism, racism and authors of manga and doujinshi

I don't understand how you can extrapolate that this is a cultural thing and not just something specific to the individual or even the Otaku sub-culture. There's nothing specific to Japanese culture that would be uncalled for us to criticize for its depiction of women or the choice to make the kind of comments Toriyama made in the context that he made them.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Toriyama: Oh no.....anyway, Now watch this drive.

[WittyUsername]

When I saw the title of this thread, I assumed Toriyama had been accused of sexual assault or something, but then I clicked on it and saw that it’s just rehashing old news that some people are apparently just now learning about.

Yes, Lady Red is a pretty gross comic, and Toriyama’s joke (at least I hope it was a joke) about peeping on his daughter is even grosser, but this is not going to cause him to get blacklisted in a country like Japan. Japanese companies don’t care about this stuff. Hell, Nobuhiro Watsuki was busted for child pornography at the height of the MeToo movement, and his manga series went back into serialization like nothing happened.

[eledoremassis02]

How does it take aim at Japanese culture? What part of Japanese culture says that it's okay to joke about sexually harassing's one's daughter? I must be missing something here in your posts because I really don't get what point you're trying to make.

It can be seen as late as 1998 (see GTO) where the pervy Principle gets turned on by looking up his daughters skirt (14ish years old?) and later wants to take his family to the ocean so he can see her in a Bikini. It's not taken in any serious context outside of cementing that character as super perverted (more action is taken when he's sexually harassing a female on a train and gets punched in the face for it by the main character *a pervert with a heart of gold*).

I can only guess (again not being in Japan or raised there) but it seems it stems from Japans social conseravitism. It's "boys talk" in a culture where men would bathe with their young daughters (somthing I am not sure is stll done?). Since no actual action was done (that I would assume would be legitimate problem in Japan even then) it just a tossaway "joke".

If your into manga, I do suggest reading Dreamland Japan tho because it gives a good insight into the industry (atleast up till 1996) and does cover things like sexism, racism and authors of manga and doujinshi

I don't understand how you can extrapolate that this is a cultural thing and not just something specific to the individual or even the Otaku sub-culture. There's nothing specific to Japanese culture that would be uncalled for us to criticize for its depiction of women or the choice to make the kind of comments Toriyama made in the context that he made them.

I dont quite understand your last sentince so I appoligize if somthing I write sounds like its not a direct response.

It's not (just) Otaku subculture. Manga has a vastly broader consumer base than Anime in japan and thus comments like this were not only read by kids but also adults. The fact this behavior was seen as far as 1998, as well as other actions against women even later into the 2000s and only have been acted on recently. Now this is not to say everyone in Japan would be cool with these comments but the fact Toriyama was comfortable enough to say it in a printed interveiw in one Japan top weekly magazines speaks volumes (no pun intended).

GTO is very much drenched in Japanese culture dialogue (both the Manga and TV Drama). The main character is a push against that culture, its the core of his character.

We can criticize Japanese culture, I think thats fine. I mean 奥さん (wife) basically translate to "deep within the house" so that, culturally, shows how women are seen in Japan (though thats slowly changing) and I think there is a good discussion around that.

Again, I suggest you read that book. It gave me a much broader understanding about (pre-western wave) manga and its demographics and production.

[Adamant]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

[omaro34]

I bet you the people complaining over this quote weren’t even born when Toriyama said this lmaooo

These people need to find better things to complain about

[JulieYBM]

I bet you the people complaining over this quote weren’t even born when Toriyama said this lmaooo

These people need to find better things to complain about

I don't think the videos are being particularly sincere in their criticism...but what does the age of the people criticizing the quote have to do with it? I was born three years after Toriyama made his comment and guess what? I'm still a full grown woman and think his comment is stupid, he shouldn't have made it and it's part of a larger pattern of unacceptable behavior that turns women in objects of derision and lust for JUMP, its editors and its creators. That's a valid point of discussion and something we should criticize.

[Koitsukai]

Seems like a joke interview for the most part, just answering whatever comes to mind. He even admitted to wanting to cheat on his wife if he got assured that he wouldn't get caught lol.

That line about his daughter sounds like something outrageous that has no seriousness behind it, a bad, bad joke. You'd need to hate the guy to the bones to take it as a confession that he is evil and aspires to be a daughterfucker, and then upload two videos about it. If it happened in a court of law or on some raw footage, then yeah, he wasn't fooling around, go ahead and count his ribs with a stick, but in that context it's just a harmless, poor taste joke.

I've told my share of awful jokes poking at my own dead relatives and unborn children of mine, it doesn't mean I meant any of that. Shit, a colleague of mine once said he was abused by a priest as a kid, just to fuck with the interviewer and their stupid questions.
Written interviews usually do not provide the tone of the conversation, and since he wasn't reported by his daughter after 30 years, I have to assume he was actually joking. Knowing his kind of humor, it adds up.

[Soppa Saia People]

I bet you the people complaining over this quote weren’t even born when Toriyama said this lmaooo

These people need to find better things to complain about

lol, this thread is bordering on a circle jerk. toriyama isn't gonna canceled, nothing is gonna come from this, so i don't think we need every other post here be people saying that the SJWS ARE #TRIGGERED as a result.

but just because this is a somewhat disengageous non-story, doesn't mean you can't look at the context of when something like lady red was made and examined it and shit like that.

[WittyUsername]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to criticize a culture for having some rather rigid and old fashioned social views. American culture is by no means free from criticism either, but there are definitely things about Japanese society that come across as rather unhealthy.

[JulieYBM]

Seems like a joke interview for the most part, just answering whatever comes to mind. He even admitted to wanting to cheat on his wife if he got assured that he wouldn't get caught lol.

That line about his daughter sounds like something outrageous that has no seriousness behind it, a bad, bad joke. You'd need to hate the guy to the bones to take it as a confession that he is evil and aspires to be a daughterfucker, and then upload two videos about it. If it happened in a court of law or on some raw footage, then yeah, he wasn't fooling around, go ahead and count his ribs with a stick, but in that context it's just a harmless, poor taste joke.

I've told my share of awful jokes poking at my own dead relatives and unborn children of mine, it doesn't mean I meant any of that. Shit, a colleague of mine once said he was abused by a priest as a kid, just to fuck with the interviewer and their stupid questions.
Written interviews usually do not provide the tone of the conversation, and since he wasn't reported by his daughter after 30 years, I have to assume he was actually joking. Knowing his kind of humor, it adds up.

The issue is that this was published specifically aiming at kids in a databook for a child-aimed series. Shueisha could have published it elsewhere but instead some genius thought it was a wise idea to publishing it a book literally called Dragon Ball Adventure Special.

[Misu]

Lady red is pretty mild when compared to stuff available in the doujin market. Japanese sexual humor has always been very weird. Just look up the Rance series

[DBZAOTA482]

Yeah, there's nothing new about any of this. Lady Red is a gross short comic and Toriyama has made gross jokes before.

"Cancel culture" is a fake problem made up by bad-faith grifters trying to remove accountability for misconduct, because they like misconduct and want to do more of it. This is a fact.

That said, even if "cancel culture" were a real thing? This would be nothing. This is a nothing on top of more nothing. Dragon Ball is full of gross things, both in and out of universe. One nasty comic from 1987 and an off-color joke that should not be around children's media is not going to do much.

Most of us here are in America, where two years ago it was so unprecedented that a Z-list Dragon Ball voice actor was actually fired for his two decades of sexual harassment and assault allegations from dozens of people that it triggered a targeted harassment campaign that continues to this day. We even still have a thread going because the bogus lawsuit the subject launched was only denied its appeal a week ago.

So in Japan, a much more socially-conservative nation on a corporate and governmental level, is a weaker offense like making objectionable art thirty-five years ago or saying something weird in an interview going to do much to the creator of a franchise worth billions? Shueisha didn't make any meaningful condemnation of the Ruroni Kenshin guy after he was arrested for possession of child pornography!

Toriyama has said weird things, and his work often displays unconscionable politics or worldviews that should be criticized, but I've never known him to hurt anyone, he's just a weird old nerd. He could be hundreds of times grosser than he is and he would not be "canceled".

Watsuki basically got a slap on the wrist for being a legit creep. I can never look at Rurouni Kenshin the same way again.

I'm glade Toriyama never did any degenerate shit

[jjgp1112]

On that same level, we can also criticize American culture and its shitty tendency to force itself and its norms and morals on other countries, and I think that's a pretty important discussion for Americans that say things like that to have before they do too much criticizing of others.

...Okay? Is it not possible to be critical of aspects of both your own country's culture and another country's?

[Shaddy]

I think it's a little weird to imply that thinking skeevy rape comics or peeping on children are gross are somehow "American morals".

[Hellspawn28]

Toriyama is not going to get cancled for a dumb joke. Todd Mcfarlane made a dumb joke about boys playing with dolls and yet he is still doing his thing.