Vegeta: Inferiority Complex

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed May 12, 2004 3:32 pm

... I'd never heard that phrase before I thought of it.

I am so depressed now, I better eat a lot to compensate.

OH! I ate too much! Now look at my avatar! It's a self-pic!

SpiritBomb · Post by **SpiritBomb** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:17 pm

Sorry,Ben! I just said it was from Fraisier because of PsyLiam in your introduction post. Remeber,Liam? Eh? I'd get a quote but I'm too lazy

....SB? Heh..SB..it could work!

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu May 13, 2004 10:36 pm

Stop saying Frasier! That show is like, so one hour ago.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu May 13, 2004 11:39 pm

And since Friends has ended, so it that phrase. Which I don't think they ever said, but close enough.

"Could that phrase be any more an hour ago?"

Nope, doesn't work.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:49 am

YAY! I got topic o' the week on Ask VegEX! Although it seems nobody gives a rat's ass. Meh.

God, I can't be lieve my computer is working this long to let me type this... it's got some really bad bug, making it screw up. If I vanish from these boards for a while, it's either because the comp is a dick, or I sent it to be fixed up.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Tue May 18, 2004 2:01 am

I've thought about some things quite relevant to this actually. First and foremost, I'd like to bring up the fact that (I believe) after Cell explained its faults to Trunks, Trunks made the assumption that Vegeta had already figured that Ultimate Super Saiyan stage 2 was useless because of the lack of mobility as was explicated by Cell, which is why he didn't bother achieving it while training. This may only be in the anime, or the dub, but on account of Vegeta's intelligence, I'd say it might be a given (even that putz Goku figured it out).

Anyway, Vegeta undergoes a great wussification at many points in the series, and not just in Toei-produced material.

I refuse to believe it was actually Vegeta in movie 8 (Broli). It must have been someone else. It couldn't have been the same Vegeta who rebelled against Freeza knowing he had relatively no chance of survival, or who blew himself up fighting Buu, or who was on the receiving end of a beating from Kid Buu but got up for more, or who, no matter how many times someone might've surpassed him, was determined to rise again. It was painful to watch, but then I don't put too much stock in the movies. Keep in mind that in the movies, Goku kills first and asks questions later, which utterly betrays his character. Also, consider that Vegeta has faced opponents with about just as much or more difference in power above himself than Broli. Anyway, moving on...

Your point about the Kid Buu fight bothers me most out of all. Why does Vegeta's accepting inferiority make him a better person? That's just pathetic. Would YOU be a better person if you decided you should just give up? No. That effectively makes you someone else's bi-yatch. That doesn't really tie the story together that nicely. It leaves Vegeta fans bitter. The after taste of DBGT ain't none too pretty, either. Why is it that in all the years after the kid Buu fight that Vegeta couldn't obtain Super Saiyan 3? I believe, due to his being unimpressed by Dabura (who I believe was supposed to be at about Perfect Cell's power), that he achieved Super Saiyan 2 on his own before Babidi possessed him, which just gave him more power. Keep in mind that this was a period of something like 7 years (I think). Between the fight with Kid Buu and the start of GT (Toriyama never showed what Vegeta was capable of at the very end of DBZ when Uub appeared), he logically should have reached level 3. What was he doing all those years? Learning tennis? Scratching himself? But no, like everyone else besides Goku, Vegeta got miserably shafted.

So what does this all have to do with your question? Really, the series is up to individual interpretation. A Goku or Krillin fan might despise Vegeta, but I think he's the most important and dynamic character of all of Dragonball. Characters like him are the reason I watch DBZ, as other animes feature characters who undergo the routine villian to hero/loser transformation, but it's typically a joke. Take the Kenshin series for example (the worst offender I know of). Kenshin meets these morons who have their own little outlooks on life, Kenshin slaps them or someone else around (in a sad, sad fight), and they learn that Kenshin is always right, and then they change their entire personal philosophy and become a useless idiot friend. Change like that doesn't happen that fast. People don't normally change over night, especially a**holes. Vegeta changes in over a decade. A long time.

What I basically meant to say when I initially started typing this was that I don't think Vegeta has an inferiority complex. I just think he has so much pride, it hits him like a speeding train when he fails. I got off on a tengent because there just some things that need to be said.

Yes.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Tue May 18, 2004 2:15 am

oponok wrote:I refuse to believe it was actually Vegeta in movie 8 (Broli). It must have been someone else. It couldn't have been the same Vegeta who rebelled against Freeza knowing he had relatively no chance of survival, or who blew himself up fighting Buu, or who was on the receiving end of a beating from Kid Buu but got up for more, or who, no matter how many times someone might've surpassed him, was determined to rise again. It was painful to watch, but then I don't put too much stock in the movies.

I've heard that a lot, but in this case I would have to disagree. Remember that Vegeta had grown up with the belief his entire life, that he would become the legendary Super Saiyan. It was his only hope of killing Freeza and conquering the universe.

Faced with the undeniable proof that he wasn't the Super Saiyan, just A Super Saiyan, everything that he had based his life on had been suddenly yanked out from underneath him. It wasn't so much that Vegeta was afraid of Broli's strength, more that he represented his shattered hope.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Tue May 18, 2004 3:24 am

Great post, oponok, and welcome to the board, but I'd have to agree with Deus. Vegeta was shattered. Every belief that had been taught from the cradle was proven wrong. Not only was it slapped into his face that he wasn't The Legend, but also the belief that the LSSJ was the ultimate warrior didn't disappear when he saw it confirmed by Brolli. In his mind, temporarily, he had no chance of victory because he had been taught that nobody could topple The Legend. Even in the end, no single person could.

It wasn't Vegeta 'giving up' that made him a better person, it was him giving up a sick obsession that constantly kept him teetering on the brink of insanity. It wasn't normal rivalry, it consumed his entire life. His every thought was bitter with hatred and always leading to the same, pointless, goal. With that gone, he began to realize that there were things more important than power alone. At the end of Z, he's much more social and more involved with his family. What was he doing all those years? Maybe, like Gohan, he was focused on actually having a life.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:24 pm

Well, Vegeta kind of already just was a Super Saiyan. Goku, Trunks, and Gohan were all at that point in the movie. This makes you wonder why if there was piece on Earth when this movie took place (although it obviously couldn't have in the series) and no androids were currently bugging anybody, why wouldn't Vegeta have challenged Goku to a fight, already? It might add something to the movies if they actually made Goku and Vegeta look like rivals rather than making Vegeta just this cranky, ever reluctant ally who yells at Goku. The first DBZ movie incorporated Piccolo and Goku's rivalry, as they eventually began to fight on the spot, which I thought was a nice touch.

Speaking of Piccolo, the scene in which he lifts Vegeta by his head and carries him around is just plain ridiculous, at least in my opinion. There's a difference between being intimidated or even terrified and just being way too dramatic, like a child going into shock after falling off his high chair. The Vegeta I know would've backfisted that Namekian smart-a$$ back to the deserted flatlands on Earth he crawled out of. I don't accept Vegeta being a total coward but even if I did, I couldn't accept THIS. Besides, Vegeta always tried to prove himself against any adversary. Freeza was unstoppable but he still fought him. Goku became a Super Saiyan which was something of an impossibility or legend, but Vegeta didn't just drop to his knees in awe, he just got pissed off and worked harder.

One more thing that annoys me about the series as it concerns Vegeta is something else about the Kid Buu fight. When Vegeta fights Buu for the first time, he doesn't go Super Saiyan. What does he think he'll accomplish, or did he simply forget how, momentarily? He couldn't touch Perfect Cell as an Ultimate Super Saiyan, so what does he propose he'll do in his normal form against an infinitely stronger villian? Then, after about thirteen seconds of fighting, he's already breathing quite heavily, as though strained by great physical activity. As far as I know, he's not asthmatic, but God bless him if he is.

Personally, I think the true answer to all this is just as Akira told it in the story: Vegeta has too much pride. We'd like to think there's something else there, but, unfortunately in the case of DBZ and the vasr majority of anime, they're typically not the kinds of stories that hold that deeper meaning like one might hope. It's interesting to theorize about it or relate it to other works to give it some analytical texture, which I too am guilty of. I think of Dragonball Z as a whole as the ultimate story of father-son relationships: few other series carry over such a great length of time as to show such likable characters age, and to show things as though the perspective of a child (the magical adventures, big nasty bad guys, etc). It's interesting to speculate about it all.

But who knows? Maybe AT is on of the greatest and most subtle story tellers of all time (though I think he IS the best manga artist/writer, ever).

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:47 pm

oponok wrote:One more thing that annoys me about the series as it concerns Vegeta is something else about the Kid Buu fight. When Vegeta fights Buu for the first time, he doesn't go Super Saiyan. What does he think he'll accomplish, or did he simply forget how, momentarily? He couldn't touch Perfect Cell as an Ultimate Super Saiyan, so what does he propose he'll do in his normal form against an infinitely stronger villian?

I'm almost certain that scene is filler. If necessary, I suppose you could rationalize it by assuming that Vegeta didn't intend to actually injure Buu and only wanted to momentarily distract him so Goku could recover. He may have chosen not to become Super Saiya-jin in order to conserve energy for his next opportunity to fight.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:21 pm

oponok: I was just wondering, are you the type of Vegita fan that has to constantly bash every other DBZ character? Because I've noticed that you've done it a couple of times in your posts. Sorry, it's just that I don't think you need to do that to get your points across. Plus I think it makes you end up looking petty, which I doubt highly that you are, since I think that you post good arguments.

Mochi · Post by **Mochi** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:27 pm

Get 'I'm, Jersey!

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:29 pm

oponok wrote:Well, Vegeta kind of already just was a Super Saiyan. Goku, Trunks, and Gohan were all at that point in the movie.

Yes, there was a lot of Super Saiyans at this point, but Vegeta was still under the impression that he was the "Number 1" Saiyan, he probably thought he was stronger than anyone at this point, making his fall from the high-horse all the harder.

Speaking of Piccolo, the scene in which he lifts Vegeta by his head and carries him around is just plain ridiculous, at least in my opinion. There's a difference between being intimidated or even terrified and just being way too dramatic, like a child going into shock after falling off his high chair. The Vegeta I know would've backfisted that Namekian smart-a$$ back to the deserted flatlands on Earth he crawled out of.

At first I completly agreed with you on that, it seemed out of character. But after watching it a few times you get a sence for Vegeta's frame of mind; he was just as you said, in complete shock. At that moment he didn't care he was a Prince, or that he was a Super Saiyan, all he knew was that he wasn't the the true Super Saiyan like he always believed. Without that, his ego was completly deflated. (For a few minutes anyways. Give him some credit, he did snap out of it

)

One more thing that annoys me about the series as it concerns Vegeta is something else about the Kid Buu fight. When Vegeta fights Buu for the first time, he doesn't go Super Saiyan. What does he think he'll accomplish, or did he simply forget how, momentarily? He couldn't touch Perfect Cell as an Ultimate Super Saiyan, so what does he propose he'll do in his normal form against an infinitely stronger villian? Then, after about thirteen seconds of fighting, he's already breathing quite heavily, as though strained by great physical activity. As far as I know, he's not asthmatic, but God bless him if he is.

If you're reffering to when he first "switched in" with Goku, I have absolutely no idea. It was probably filler. However the second time, after just being revived, he didn't have enough ki to transform yet. (Goku yells this out to him)

Post by **TripleRach** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:36 pm

The "switch" scene is definitely filler. He started as SSJ2 in the manga.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:48 pm

Yes! Each and every other character sucks!

Actually, I don't want to give that impression. Every character is just as important as Vegeta (except maybe Yamcha, and no, I don't really care for Broli; I didn't like his character nor did I even like any of his fights, in which he often just clotheslined everybody over and over). Goku and even Tien are among my personal favorites (note how I complained about the movies making Goku a killer with no remorse). Some of the parts with Vegeta just strike me as all too bizarre. So yes, while Vegeta is my absolute favorite, I feel some of the plot holes are left way too open to find any proper explanation.

Really, they don't bother me too much. Just enough so that while this topic was up, I thought I'd bring it up. And not enough people have heard about the whole Ultimate Super Saiyan Trunks thing I mentioned in my first post, which I'm not sure if it was just something dub-invented or was really in the manga.

So why do I continue to verbally abuse other Dragonball characters? Because I know them so well, I feel like I CAN talk that way about, perhaps one of the reasons DBZ is my favorite anime: the excellent character development and the vast amount of time in which we learn about these characters. That's why we're able to make up these crazy theories about them: we feel like we've lived around them as long as we've known the show. The little out-of-character moments can therefore stick out, sometimes.

Yes.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed May 19, 2004 7:11 am

Okay, fair enough. It's just I get paranoid because I've encountered some crazy Vegita fans in the past and they scare me, so you'll have to pardon me if I'm a little quick to judge. Vegita fangirls are the worst! Excuse me, now I need to go kill some of them.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 19, 2004 7:36 am

I've not seen much of movie 8 yet sadly. But I will have to agree with the others based off what I do know about the movie. Vegeta seems very in character to me there. He'd always been told that the legendary Super Saiya-jin was invincible. No one, no way, could ever stop him. He was the end all ultimate of power. Remember, at this point no one knows that there's an actuall SSJ2.

I think that if this had happened after Gohan's SSJ2 transformation Vegeta wouldn't have had nearly the same reaction because he'd have already known the legends were false, that there was something beyond the Super Saiya-jin. As it was however, he fully believed that Brolly was unbeatable.[/b]

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 19, 2004 7:41 pm

oponok wrote:Every character is just as important as Vegeta (except maybe Yamcha...

No! My 6 year old nephew loves Yamcha. He's his third favourite character, after Goku and Gohan. There shall be no bad mouthing of the desert bandit with the somtimes cool, sometimes awful hair here.

Go Yamcha!

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed May 19, 2004 8:05 pm

I second that! Yamucha, though... pathetic in the Buu saga, is still a great character (especially in the 10th Anniversary Special!). Poor Yamucha, nobody loves him... *sniffle* Not a single shrine to his name... (true!)

I'm strongly reminded of my last search for fanfiction...

Fanfiction.net: Pro-Yamucha fics = 7. Anti-Yamucha fics = 16,896. Pro-Vegeta fics = Just about all of them. Anti-Vegeta fics = 3.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed May 19, 2004 9:10 pm

I like Yamucha.