If Dragon Ball is a worldwide mainstream children's franchise...

[JulieYBM]

I remember in school one of my ex-friends disagreed when some of the autistic boys (I'm on the spectrum myself, but very mild, these guys were further down the non-verbal end) were being taught sex education because he didn't honestly believe they would ever be in a serious relationship, which I felt was wrong. Hell there's been Down Syndrome couples who married. Even if they were never so lucky it's demeaning to shelter anyone from these things provided they are taught the importance of consent, and sadly its not just kids treated this way, teenagers with all kinds of disabilities are underestimated.

I've seen a similar sentiment here in the west of Ireland that kids should be taught marriage is the civil and legal union of a man and a woman, despite the fact there's been no such restriction since our marriage referendum passed 9 years ago. I and many other likeminded liberal friends and family agree marriage is for everyone at or above the age of consent, the only thing that would be confusing for kids is teaching them there's any more limitations as they will inevitably hear of same sex couples but they need to know from a young age nothing is wrong with that.

Sadly Dragon Ball has never dealt with these topics well, but I hope in time we will see new stories that can introduce kids to these ideas without being preachy. I agree with Kunzait it's very enriching for them to open their minds from a young age. Although I guess as he will say more adult-skewing media exists for a reason, not as a replacement for kids shows like Dragon Ball after a certain age, but as an addition and crucial part of a healthy media diet.

It's a good thing he's your ex-friend then, because not trying to educate autistic people about their bodies and proper sex education is a recipe for somebody getting badly hurt.

I definitely agree that sex education should begin sooner, though. A world where we learn about sex and queerness early on in our lives will help make women and queer people more free from the norms that keep them beholden to cisheteronormative. I remember being bullied for being gay growing up and combined with the way people treated me at school, at home and among my so-called friends at the time it wasn't exactly easy, considering it just sent me deep enough into the closet to forget I was bisexual and trans. A world where fewer people go through what I did is good, actually.


Anyway, Jesus Christ, the Muten Roushi stuff is just bad. It's not funny, it distracts from the fighting and character drama, and it's harmful as hell.

[Hellspawn28]

When I was a kid, I knew better not to act like Roshi because I knew it was a cartoon and you would get in trouble doing it in real life. Kids should have parental advisory when they watch or read something. People aren't stupid when you rise them right and give them good education.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

It reads to me as though the script/dialogue writers at Toei who come up with these kinds of jokes in such scenes, especially in regard to Roshi just simply don't see that they're not in good taste as to how people outside of or even within Japan itself might perceive them. These are likely 40+ something adults who don't have a grasp on the idea that it's gross and not actually funny. Their thinking is likely "lol omg this is so funny" and are blind to the nature of how they come off as on screen.

I mean, yeah. Toriyama himself did such things when he was writing/illustrating the original manga well over 30 years ago though granted that was also in a less advanced time when things of this nature weren't quite as scrutinized as in modern times. Also, he did them in a lesser amount than Toei did with the anime in which they inserted more moments of Roshi (or Oolong.etc) doing perverted shit though neither likely had that consideration even back in the day.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, yeah. Toriyama himself did such things when he was writing/illustrating the original manga well over 30 years ago though granted that was also in a less advanced time when things of this nature weren't quite as scrutinized as in modern times.

I can guarantee you that women and queer people hated being treated like shit in 1984, too.

[super michael]

This obsession I'm seeing from particular users over the last couple years about television airings is really getting to me (on a few different levels that I'm growing increasingly comfortable with expressing). As someone into their 40s, I certainly won't claim to be the paragon of "hip"... but these statements are so out of touch with reality that it's actually making me question how in tune I might be.

Do you have children of your own? No? Nieces? Nephews? Friends with children?

Kids do not watch (traditional broadcast) TV. End of line. Stop. Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

If your aim is to get anything other than the 50+ crowd, there is no reason for Dragon Ball to be on traditional broadcast television or cable.

I do not know how to be more clear about this.

Kids nowadays perfers to watch things online over watching it on the TV network. It is no surprise, on the internet they can watch anything they wants and whatever time they want.

TV network they can repeat the same episode over and even mix up the episode order, they can even skip scenes of the episode just to have commercials. An example is The Fantastic Four episode on CN, when the characters swapped their powers, they skipped the ending to show commercials and didn't how the ending.
Plus the commercials there is 5 minutes commercial in the middle and then 5 minutes commercial before the next one.

TV network they are limited to what the network shows and sometimes their information is wrong and show another thing than what is expected. Plus channel like CN its quality has gone down by a lot in some country, no anime at all and no DC cartoon other than TTG.

[TechExpert2021]

TV network they can repeat the same episode over and even mix up the episode order, they can even skip scenes of the episode just to have commercials. An example is The Fantastic Four episode on CN, when the characters swapped their powers, they skipped the ending to show commercials and didn't show the ending.
Plus the commercials there is 5 minutes commercial in the middle and then 5 minutes commercial before the next one.

I'm sure Cartoon Network right now usually shows the ending credits on the bottom-left corner of the screen near the end of the episode of any show they air so they don't have to air the ending visuals with the credits like they used to.

[Kunzait_83]

I do want to add most of Dragon Balls sexual humor is juvenile "teehee boobies" and " haha weiners are funny." Which is fine because that's what generally where most 8 year olds are at. It really is just the dismissive attitude towards sexual harrassment and assault that brings it down and like Kunzait said it's not that it's age inappropriate it's that it is so just so misogynistic and nonchalant that sexual assault "aint no big deal and that's just a horny old man being his kooky self" It would be horrible even if Dragon Ball was aimed at adults.

Yeah, I just want to co-sign this 100%. Outside of the Muten Roshi stuff (and the "General Blue is a pedophile" stuff in the anime), almost all of Dragon Ball's sexual humor otherwise tends to be perfectly fine, age appropriate, and harmless.

Goku's curiosity and social ineptness about genders and genitals in particular is completely innocent and fine for little kids (especially at an age when they themselves are in Goku's shoes and are still learning about that stuff as well; so long as you maybe also be sure to explain to them its not ok to go around patting strangers on the crotch to check ), as are most of the other sex and toilet/potty jokes that don't revolve around being flippant and dismissive towards Muten Roshi's sexually predatory behavior (and that one godawful bit about Blue in the anime).

If you were to somehow surgically remove solely the Muten Roshi-centric sex jokes and the one General Blue pedophile gag and leave literally EVERYTHING ELSE exactly the same, then unless there's anything else I'm forgetting about here, I would then say then that there is literally absolutely nothing in Dragon Ball that isn't 100% appropriate and harmless for all ages. Blood, gore, nudity, and peepee jokes included.

And as Masenko said, the Muten Roshi stuff would be terrible even in a series that was aimed squarely at adults. Its just inherently, intrinsically, and irredeemably shitty and toxic, no matter WHO the target audience is.

I remember in school one of my ex-friends disagreed when some of the autistic boys (I'm on the spectrum myself, but very mild, these guys were further down the non-verbal end) were being taught sex education because he didn't honestly believe they would ever be in a serious relationship, which I felt was wrong.

Ugh. Jesus Christ that's a disgusting, awful thing for him to say/think. The term "ableism" sometimes gets thrown around a bit too much - sometimes even purposefully disingenuously - at things it doesn't really apply to at all. But this? Yeah, this is the dictionary definition of ableism right here. That's incredibly, needlessly cruel and harmful, not to mention again just straight up factually inaccurate, as there are plenty of mentally disabled people of all kinds who end up in relationships and get married.

[JulieYBM]

unless there's anything else I'm forgetting about here, I would then say then that there is literally absolutely nothing in Dragon Ball that isn't 100% appropriate and harmless for all ages. Blood, gore, nudity, and peepee jokes included.

And as Masenko said, the Muten Roshi stuff would be terrible even in a series that was aimed squarely at adults. Its just inherently, intrinsically, and irredeemably shitty and toxic, no matter WHO the target audience is.

Blooma's dad being a perv during the Red Ribbon Army arc when he meets Gokuu and asks if he is dating Blooma, Blooma accidentally taking her dad's Hoi Poi Capsule case containing his pornography, and two Red Ribbon Army soldiers trying to rape Blooma all happen within the same set of chapters as the Muten Roushi trying to spy on Blooma using the toilet.

So, it's definitely not just the Muten Roushi, Toriyama let that shit permeate throughout much of the 1984 comic series.

[MasenkoHA]

unless there's anything else I'm forgetting about here, I would then say then that there is literally absolutely nothing in Dragon Ball that isn't 100% appropriate and harmless for all ages. Blood, gore, nudity, and peepee jokes included.

And as Masenko said, the Muten Roshi stuff would be terrible even in a series that was aimed squarely at adults. Its just inherently, intrinsically, and irredeemably shitty and toxic, no matter WHO the target audience is.

Blooma's dad being a perv during the Red Ribbon Army arc when he meets Gokuu and asks if he is dating Blooma, Blooma accidentally taking her dad's Hoi Poi Capsule case containing his pornography, and two Red Ribbon Army soldiers trying to rape Blooma all happen within the same set of chapters as the Muten Roushi trying to spy on Blooma using the toilet.

So, it's definitely not just the Muten Roushi, Toriyama let that shit permeate throughout much of the 1984 comic series.

Dr Briefs asking if Goku is Bulma's boyfriend always read to me that Dr.Briefs isn't all the way there (despite being the world's smartest man) and didn't even register Goku is too young for Bulma at that point. Or at the very least he was being a lame dad and was giving his daughter a hard time. Bulma was annoyed with him either way.

I don't really see the RRA soldiers trying to sexually assault Bulma as the same boat as the Muten Roshi stuff because they're bad guys and the comic doesn't pretend what they're trying to do is cute or silly dudes being their goofy selves. Yeah, arguably, it's not appropriate for a kids comic to have that stuff in there at all but as I recall it was written in a way not too many kids would get exactly what they were wanting to do Bulma just that it wasn't nice. If they had actually succeeded that would definitely be crossing the line for a comic aimed at kids but as it was it was just sort of "implied bad things" and Bulma breaking the fourth wall joke by pointing out their intentions wouldn't be appropriate for a goofy comic aimed at grade school boys.

The Briefs porn stash gag would probably again fall under "age inappropriate" but to me the target audience is going to be more where Goku's at where they don't see the appeal of naked women they just know their dads/older brothers/cousins have those magazines for some reason.

[JulieYBM]

Dr Briefs asking if Goku is Bulma's boyfriend always read to me that Dr.Briefs isn't all the way there (despite being the world's smartest man) and didn't even register Goku is too young for Bulma at that point. Or at the very least he was being a lame dad and was giving his daughter a hard time. Bulma was annoyed with him either way.

I don't really see the RRA soldiers trying to sexually assault Bulma as the same boat as the Muten Roshi stuff because they're bad guys and the comic doesn't pretend what they're trying to do is cute or silly dudes being their goofy selves. Yeah, arguably, it's not appropriate for a kids comic to have that stuff in there at all but as I recall it was written in a way not too many kids would get exactly what they were wanting to do Bulma just that it wasn't nice. If they had actually succeeded that would definitely be crossing the line for a comic aimed at kids but as it was it was just sort of "implied bad things" and Bulma breaking the fourth wall joke by pointing out their intentions wouldn't be appropriate for a goofy comic aimed at grade school boys.

I think the issue is that it's sort of just random and tossed in there with little thought or point. Like, this is still ostensibly a gag series and part of a series of scenes where Blooma is constantly made the butt of sexual assault and harrassment. Contextually, it's just as "What the fuck are you doing?" as the other scenes, only here the horrifying aspect of it is actually played a little straight...and then just forgotten about. It's part of a pattern of negligence.

The Briefs porn stash gag would probably again fall under "age inappropriate" but to me the target audience is going to be more where Goku's at where they don't see the appeal of naked women they just know their dads/older brothers/cousins have those magazines for some reason.

I'm repeating myself, I know, but I think you're approaching this too removed from context. Toriyama randomly deciding to toss this gag in doesn't make any sense and follows in a series where its female characters are regularly treated as sex objects.

Dragon Ball's target audience isn't exactly going to be unaware of what porn is, either.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I do want to add most of Dragon Balls sexual humor is juvenile "teehee boobies" and " haha weiners are funny." Which is fine because that's what generally where most 8 year olds are at. It really is just the dismissive attitude towards sexual harrassment and assault that brings it down and like Kunzait said it's not that it's age inappropriate it's that it is so just so misogynistic and nonchalant that sexual assault "aint no big deal and that's just a horny old man being his kooky self" It would be horrible even if Dragon Ball was aimed at adults.

Is it bad that the often memed "Sonic Says" segment on sexual harassment might be one of the most appropriate educational treatments of the topic that I've seen in a comedy kids show? And, that what from what, 1993?
https://youtu.be/IuXOkGvZNaI

[Majin Buu]

With Dragon Ball and its blase treatment of sexual harassment in regard to Roshi:

I think Charles "Upchuck" Ruttheimer III from Daria provides a good template for depicting a "sexpest" type character like Roshi.

Everyone in-universe knows Upchuck is a creepy sexpest and is appropriately turned off by him, giving him the reputation of being a loser and a sleezy guy that sticks with him for the entire show (With the implication that he might have better luck with girls if he wasn't a sexpest). The show is clear that guys like Upchuck are losers (His nickname being a word for vomiting says it all).

I think Roshi's out-of-universe reputation as a character could have benefitted from the story more aggressively treating him as an Upchuck-esqe loser that shouldn't be looked up to as opposed to the "that silly old master's up to his old tricks again, oh well..." way the story presents his behavior.

[JulieYBM]

The major issue with making a character like the Muten Roushi is that unless you firmly depict his bullshit as bullshit you're going to wind up in a situation where his bullshit is glossed over and laughed off, rather than properly depicted as abhorrent.

Like, there's no benefit to how the Muten Roushi is a depicted. Nobody is learning "this kind of behavior is wrong." Instead of saying, "Hey, this behavior is wrong," all it does is bother the kind of people who are the victims of that behavior and distract from the rest of the series.

Imagine being a woman who came to Dragon Ball for some cool martial arts but before you get to that you have to put up with "Women exist for my sexist male gratitude" and "woman get the shit kicked out of them and have no internal feelings and arcs needing to be explore," because that's basically the majority of what happens to women in Dragon Ball.

Being a female fan of 'shounen manga and anime' is a lot of 'rolling with the punches' and it honestly sucks.

[tonysoprano300]

The major issue with making a character like the Muten Roushi is that unless you firmly depict his bullshit as bullshit you're going to wind up in a situation where his bullshit is glossed over and laughed off, rather than properly depicted as abhorrent.

Like, there's no benefit to how the Muten Roushi is a depicted. Nobody is learning "this kind of behavior is wrong." Instead of saying, "Hey, this behavior is wrong," all it does is bother the kind of people who are the victims of that behavior and distract from the rest of the series.

Imagine being a woman who came to Dragon Ball for some cool martial arts but before you get to that you have to put up with "Women exist for my sexist male gratitude" and "woman get the shit kicked out of them and have no internal feelings and arcs needing to be explore," because that's basically the majority of what happens to women in Dragon Ball.

Being a female fan of 'shounen manga and anime' is a lot of 'rolling with the punches' and it honestly sucks.

Whats fairly weird about that is how many people would argue that the original DB was a reflection of its time and cultural norms in Japan, yet the DBS depiction of Roshi and Yurin in the TOP was arguably the worst its ever been. Like sure it was laughed off in the past but there was always some kind punishment that Roshi would get for being a perverted old man.The yurin thing played it way too straight in a way that was a little disturbing to watch.

At the same time, the precendent shouldn't have been set to begin with.

[JulieYBM]

The major issue with making a character like the Muten Roushi is that unless you firmly depict his bullshit as bullshit you're going to wind up in a situation where his bullshit is glossed over and laughed off, rather than properly depicted as abhorrent.

Like, there's no benefit to how the Muten Roushi is a depicted. Nobody is learning "this kind of behavior is wrong." Instead of saying, "Hey, this behavior is wrong," all it does is bother the kind of people who are the victims of that behavior and distract from the rest of the series.

Imagine being a woman who came to Dragon Ball for some cool martial arts but before you get to that you have to put up with "Women exist for my sexist male gratitude" and "woman get the shit kicked out of them and have no internal feelings and arcs needing to be explore," because that's basically the majority of what happens to women in Dragon Ball.

Being a female fan of 'shounen manga and anime' is a lot of 'rolling with the punches' and it honestly sucks.

Whats fairly weird about that is how many people would argue that the original DB was a reflection of its time and cultural norms in Japan, yet the DBS depiction of Roshi and Yurin in the TOP was arguably the worst its ever been. Like sure it was laughed off in the past but there was always some kind punishment that Roshi would get for being a perverted old man.The yurin thing played it way too straight in a way that was a little disturbing to watch.

At the same time, the precendent shouldn't have been set to begin with.

The culture of it all is really besides the point, though. Culturally, it's still plenty okay to treat women poorly all over the world. Even in the US there's still a lot of that bullshit. Whether it was forty years ago or no, someone could still point to Dragon Ball and be like, "Wow, this sure is fucked up!" Especially if that someone was a woman looking to read something entertaining and then picking up the first couple of JUMP issues with Dragon Ball only to be greeted with Blooma pissing her pants in fear for a cheap gag or casually, accidentally flashing the Muten Roushi for a Dragon Ball that doesn't particularly invite its female audience—or any audience—to sympathize with her at all throughout the story.

It's so bizarre how Dragon Ball treats its treatment of Blooma as if it's punching up at woman, as if using girls and women for sexual harassment and assault jokes—or not jokes at all—is somehow not historically the most in-vogue thing across the planet.

[super michael]

The major issue with making a character like the Muten Roushi is that unless you firmly depict his bullshit as bullshit you're going to wind up in a situation where his bullshit is glossed over and laughed off, rather than properly depicted as abhorrent.

Like, there's no benefit to how the Muten Roushi is a depicted. Nobody is learning "this kind of behavior is wrong." Instead of saying, "Hey, this behavior is wrong," all it does is bother the kind of people who are the victims of that behavior and distract from the rest of the series.

Imagine being a woman who came to Dragon Ball for some cool martial arts but before you get to that you have to put up with "Women exist for my sexist male gratitude" and "woman get the shit kicked out of them and have no internal feelings and arcs needing to be explore," because that's basically the majority of what happens to women in Dragon Ball.

Being a female fan of 'shounen manga and anime' is a lot of 'rolling with the punches' and it honestly sucks.

Whats fairly weird about that is how many people would argue that the original DB was a reflection of its time and cultural norms in Japan, yet the DBS depiction of Roshi and Yurin in the TOP was arguably the worst its ever been. Like sure it was laughed off in the past but there was always some kind punishment that Roshi would get for being a perverted old man.The yurin thing played it way too straight in a way that was a little disturbing to watch.

At the same time, the precendent shouldn't have been set to begin with.

The culture of it all is really besides the point, though. Culturally, it's still plenty okay to treat women poorly all over the world. Even in the US there's still a lot of that bullshit. Whether it was forty years ago or no, someone could still point to Dragon Ball and be like, "Wow, this sure is fucked up!" Especially if that someone was a woman looking to read something entertaining and then picking up the first couple of JUMP issues with Dragon Ball only to be greeted with Blooma pissing her pants in fear for a cheap gag or casually, accidentally flashing the Muten Roushi for a Dragon Ball that doesn't particularly invite its female audience—or any audience—to sympathize with her at all throughout the story.

It's so bizarre how Dragon Ball treats its treatment of Blooma as if it's punching up at woman, as if using girls and women for sexual harassment and assault jokes—or not jokes at all—is somehow not historically the most in-vogue thing across the planet.

I just want to add Goku made a deal with Master Roshi, for Bulma to show or go on a date to get rid of the fire from the Ox King castle.
Then there was the Invisible Man, Kuririn flash Bulma part, so Master Roshi gets a nose bleed to expose the Invisible Man, which helped Yamcha win the fight.

[kemuri07]

Well yeah, but it is important to consider the context of which Dragon Ball is made. At the end of the day, Dragon Ball started out as gag manga in the 80s, created by people who were born fairly after WW2. To expect that Dragon Ball should have been made with the modern context of queer identity and sexuality especially when the things that we so casual talk about have only entered the mainstream space in, what, twenty or so years, doesn't really make any sense. And sure racism, sexism, queer and trans identies have always persisted in this world. And honestly more often than not there's plenty of cases of "the more things change..." However, the context of how we talk about those things have absolutely changed, especially as the internet brought those topics into the forefront.

Both Dragon Ball and its creators are products of their time, and that has to be considered. I've read a lot of old manga where there are characters that make Roshi look like a docile puppy. Again not a justification, but it is an understanding as to why people of that time would find those jokes funny.

This is not me defending the Master Roshi stuff, because I agree that that stuff has aged fairly poorly. However, I don't really see it as any more harmful than the juvenile gag humor or violence that is on display. Because much in the same way that I don't see a causal connection between video game violence and real world violence, I don't think it's likely that someone is going to see Dragon Ball and think sexual assault is a-okay from watching Master Roshi sex perv on Bulma. In regards to kids, the answer is and always will be parental guidance to contextualize what exactly is being seen and why these things might not be ok, and sex education to teach children consent. That's just way more important than worrying about a 40 year old anime.

[JulieYBM]

Well yeah, but it is important to consider the context of which Dragon Ball is made. At the end of the day, Dragon Ball started out as gag manga in the 80s, created by people who were born fairly after WW2. To expect that Dragon Ball should have been made with the modern context of queer identity and sexuality especially when the things that we so casual talk about have only entered the mainstream space in, what, twenty or so years, doesn't really make any sense. And sure racism, sexism, queer and trans identies have always persisted in this world. And honestly more often than not there's plenty of cases of "the more things change..." However, the context of how we talk about those things have absolutely changed, especially as the internet brought those topics into the forefront.

Both Dragon Ball and its creators are products of their time, and that has to be considered. I've read a lot of old manga where there are characters that make Roshi look like a docile puppy. Again not a justification, but it is an understanding as to why people of that time would find those jokes funny.

This is not me defending the Master Roshi stuff, because I agree that that stuff has aged fairly poorly. However, I don't really see it as any more harmful than the juvenile gag humor or violence that is on display. Because much in the same way that I don't see a causal connection between video game violence and real world violence, I don't think it's likely that someone is going to see Dragon Ball and think sexual assault is a-okay from watching Master Roshi sex perv on Bulma. In regards to kids, the answer is and always will be parental guidance to contextualize what exactly is being seen and why these things might not be ok, and sex education to teach children consent. That's just way more important than worrying about a 40 year old anime.

Whether the bigotries of a work of art reflected mainstream views of the time of its original publication is pointless, though. Nobody is disputing "society in 1984 had shitty views towards women, queer people and racial minorities." What is being disputed whether those things were at all acceptable morally—they weren't—and whether we should take the point out that these things were always wrong—we should. This is why I'm such a proponent of giving Dragon Ball a disclaimer that directly addresses these issues.

Consistently expecting the parties harmed by these depictions to just not criticize or expect better is honestly just...a really weird hill to die on? Nobody is sharing a sentiment that wasn't also true back in 1984, after all.

And like...we should be criticizing and expecting better from media directly aimed at children for how it actively feeds into societal depictions of girls, women, racial minorities and queer people? Because positive depictions can actively fight against those parental or school or whatever other influences that these kids have.

[GhostEmperorX]

Both Dragon Ball and its creators are products of their time, and that has to be considered.

At least until we get to the part where different creators were doing different things during that time period even in their native country, with some succeeding where DB (and Toriyama works by extension) may have failed.
It's the same thing with, say, Toriyama's rather objectionable design choices for a certain group of people throughout most of his works in the 80's-90's time period, and a list can be made of animated media (and likely even manga but I haven't seen quite as many examples from that area) in the same era that did just the opposite on more than one occasion. And there was actually some backlash against said designs too at the time.

Anyways, that's about it for now, the thread has gone off the rails at this point.

[kemuri07]

Well yeah, but it is important to consider the context of which Dragon Ball is made. At the end of the day, Dragon Ball started out as gag manga in the 80s, created by people who were born fairly after WW2. To expect that Dragon Ball should have been made with the modern context of queer identity and sexuality especially when the things that we so casual talk about have only entered the mainstream space in, what, twenty or so years, doesn't really make any sense. And sure racism, sexism, queer and trans identies have always persisted in this world. And honestly more often than not there's plenty of cases of "the more things change..." However, the context of how we talk about those things have absolutely changed, especially as the internet brought those topics into the forefront.

Both Dragon Ball and its creators are products of their time, and that has to be considered. I've read a lot of old manga where there are characters that make Roshi look like a docile puppy. Again not a justification, but it is an understanding as to why people of that time would find those jokes funny.

This is not me defending the Master Roshi stuff, because I agree that that stuff has aged fairly poorly. However, I don't really see it as any more harmful than the juvenile gag humor or violence that is on display. Because much in the same way that I don't see a causal connection between video game violence and real world violence, I don't think it's likely that someone is going to see Dragon Ball and think sexual assault is a-okay from watching Master Roshi sex perv on Bulma. In regards to kids, the answer is and always will be parental guidance to contextualize what exactly is being seen and why these things might not be ok, and sex education to teach children consent. That's just way more important than worrying about a 40 year old anime.

Consistently expecting the parties harmed by these depictions to just not criticize or expect better is honestly just...a really weird hill to die on? Nobody is sharing a sentiment that wasn't also true back in 1984, after all.

I mean that’s not what I’m saying…like at all? What I am saying (or trying to say) is that there is a better way to talk and discuss these topics than just dunking on Toriyama for being a misogynist jerk to women and queer individuals. It’s just an overly simplistic view to a complicated man—because art is complicated and more than its “problematic” parts.

And sure there have always been counter-culture media that does push back on a lot of toxic ideas, even back then. Not dismissing that either.Nor am I doing the “Japan doesn’t understand western ideals” shuffle because I know very well that Japan can do bad all on its own But my point still stands for good and for ill Toriyama is a product of his time, and discussing things from that perspective is far more valuable than what we’re doing right now.