Is the split explanation of the Potara fusion in Daima a Ret-Con or not?

[MasenkoHA]

Super was the retcon. The original manga all but stated Vegetto defusing was the result of Majin Boo. If Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline for the Zamasu arc then it sounds like another case of "Toei made something up for anime original material and then Toriyama ignored it because he didn't write it"

[Grimlock]

But this is the part where you remember that Vegetto's appearance in Dragon Ball Super is thanks to Toyotaro. If you want to point fingers, point them at Toyotaro, not Toei.

None of this would be happening if Goku and Vegeta had fused into Gogeta instead (which would have been much better, thematically speaking). Time and time again this was said, and we just got more evidences that Gogeta should have been the one to appear in that saga.

[Rafa Fast]

But this is the part where you remember that Vegetto's appearance in Dragon Ball Super is thanks to Toyotaro. If you want to point fingers, point them at Toyotaro, not Toei.

None of this would be happening if Goku and Vegeta had fused into Gogeta instead (which would have been much better, thematically speaking). Time and time again this was said, and we just got more evidences that Gogeta should have been the one to appear in that saga.

I have to disagree because the Goku Black saga is all about the Kaioshins, it's not related to the Metamoruseijins or the Metamoru Fusion, so it makes sense for the Potara fusion to be the one used.
But I do have to agree that if Gogeta was used instead, the headache wouldn't exist XD (but I still like that we got to see the two fusions being used against two different major villains in Super)

I hold my opinion though thay both concepts (for now) can coexist, and that Gowasu maybe knows more about it than East Kaioshin.

But I also think it's very likely that it's basically what another user said, that what we have here is basically Toriyama trying to explain a problem regarding two characters who are going to be very important for the story VS Toriyama not caring about Vegetto because these two characters were barely any relevant in Super.

Super doesn't contradict East Kaioshin's belief about Vegetto defusing due to Boo's gas, right?

[SupremeKai25]

Super doesn't contradict East Kaioshin's belief about Vegetto defusing due to Boo's gas, right?

No it doesn't, because the one who tells Goku why he defused in the Buu saga is Gowasu, not Shin.

Gowasu doesn't know about the events of the Buu saga, so he tells Goku that he defused because Potara has a time limit with mortals.

Nothing is contradicted. Gowasu simply never heard about the Buu saga and would have no reason to bring up Buu's gas. This doesn't mean that there can't be more than one reason for Vegito defusing.

There is absoutely nothing in Daima that is contradicted by Super.

[AtlasFlame18]

Super doesn't contradict East Kaioshin's belief about Vegetto defusing due to Boo's gas, right?

No it doesn't, because the one who tells Goku why he defused in the Buu saga is Gowasu, not Shin.

Gowasu doesn't know about the events of the Buu saga, so he tells Goku that he defused because Potara has a time limit with mortals.

Nothing is contradicted. Gowasu simply never heard about the Buu saga and would have no reason to bring up Buu's gas. This doesn't mean that there can't be more than one reason for Vegito defusing.

There is absoutely nothing in Daima that is contradicted by Super.

People are grasping at straws to find contradictions and to make Super non canon instead of using basic reading comprehension and a little bit of context clues. All this from episode and people are already throwing fits because not everything is laid out yet.


Knowing Toriyama Shin and Kibito will fuse by the end as part of a gag that is semi relevant to the conclusion of the arc.

[SupremeKai25]

Super doesn't contradict East Kaioshin's belief about Vegetto defusing due to Boo's gas, right?

No it doesn't, because the one who tells Goku why he defused in the Buu saga is Gowasu, not Shin.

Gowasu doesn't know about the events of the Buu saga, so he tells Goku that he defused because Potara has a time limit with mortals.

Nothing is contradicted. Gowasu simply never heard about the Buu saga and would have no reason to bring up Buu's gas. This doesn't mean that there can't be more than one reason for Vegito defusing.

There is absoutely nothing in Daima that is contradicted by Super.

People are grasping at straws to find contradictions and to make Super non canon instead of using basic reading comprehension and a little bit of context clues. All this from episode and people are already throwing fits because not everything is laid out yet.


Knowing Toriyama Shin and Kibito will fuse by the end as part of a gag that is semi relevant to the conclusion of the arc.

As soon as I head "Seventh Universe", I instantly thought "Okay this takes place in Super continuity."

Like I'm sorry, but the Earth being in the Seventh Universe is 10000000% a Super plot point, there is no way around this.

I do think that Shin and Kibito will fuse, I don't know if it will be as gag though... I mean, they could just fuse to take down the demon villains.

[AtlasFlame18]

No it doesn't, because the one who tells Goku why he defused in the Buu saga is Gowasu, not Shin.

Gowasu doesn't know about the events of the Buu saga, so he tells Goku that he defused because Potara has a time limit with mortals.

Nothing is contradicted. Gowasu simply never heard about the Buu saga and would have no reason to bring up Buu's gas. This doesn't mean that there can't be more than one reason for Vegito defusing.

There is absoutely nothing in Daima that is contradicted by Super.

People are grasping at straws to find contradictions and to make Super non canon instead of using basic reading comprehension and a little bit of context clues. All this from episode and people are already throwing fits because not everything is laid out yet.


Knowing Toriyama Shin and Kibito will fuse by the end as part of a gag that is semi relevant to the conclusion of the arc.

As soon as I head "Seventh Universe", I instantly thought "Okay this takes place in Super continuity."

Like I'm sorry, but the Earth being in the Seventh Universe is 10000000% a Super plot point, there is no way around this.

I do think that Shin and Kibito will fuse, I don't know if it will be as gag though... I mean, they could just fuse to take down the demon villains.

Between the reference to Universe 7, the confirmation that Namekians come from a realm that isn't Universe 7 as per the Granolah Arc, the appearance of Bardock's Super design, and the fact that this takes place even before Yo Son Goku and his friends return tells me that this is very clearly in Super's continuity and is a prequel.

[Grimlock]

I have to disagree because the Goku Black saga is all about the Kaioshins, it's not related to the Metamoruseijins or the Metamoru Fusion, so it makes sense for the Potara fusion to be the one used.
But I do have to agree that if Gogeta was used instead, the headache wouldn't exist XD (but I still like that we got to see the two fusions being used against two different major villains in Super)

And being "all about Kaioshins" only amounted to "you mortals copy even the way we gods fuse" or some yapping from Merged Zamasu. It didn't really lead to anything meaningful or symbolic as Gogeta could have provided for that occasion. The saga was still about "gods vs mortals", so in that sense, yes, the Metamoru fusion would fit nicely into that theme.

Super doesn't contradict East Kaioshin's belief about Vegetto defusing due to Boo's gas, right?

No. The only thing that is contradicted is that Kaioshin of East and Kibito unfused. And until they refuse again (if that happens, that is), it will remain a contradiction. Also, as I said in another thread, both Vegetto and Gogeta cannot appear in Dragon Ball Daima, or there will be another inconsistency.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It doesn't contradict Super, it just begs the question why Kibitoshin used the Namekian Dragon Balls to defuse instead of asking Majin Boo again, although I guess that was a problem that existed before Daima as MasenkoHA said it was established in the manga Boo had that power anyway.

I wouldn't have wanted Gogeta in the Zamasu fight for the thematic reasons previously stated that Metamoru fits better, but also because I'm tired of the joke that Vegeta finds the fusion dance embarrassing.

[tonysoprano300]

Both explanations are compatible. They are not indicative of a change in continuity, even if it makes certain exchanges between characters make no sense. That they name drop Universe 7 (and show Minus Bardock) should cut off everyone's copium that Super (and its related stuff like Jaco and DB-) is getting GT'd.

See also: them apparently using the Dragon Balls to turn Boo into a good guy doesn't track with.....the Boo arc, where he becomes good without the use of the Dragon Balls. Doesn't mean the Boo arc isn't in Daima's continuity. It's just a classic case of Toriyama/Toei Writers™ (whichever one we feel like blaming this week) carelessly neglecting already-established details.

I think that's probably Toriyama completely mixing up Kidd Buu being reincarnated into a good guy with the Fat Buu becoming a good guy on his own.

[ZombieVito]

Vegetto defusing by the gas in the Boo arc and by the time limit in the Zamasu arc can co-exist and are fine.

The problem comes with the interactions between Goku and Shin and later on with Gowasu.

Goku after seeing Shin and Kibito defused in the U6 arc is shocked and demands an explanation but this contradicts Daima since he was already explained how their "permanent" fusion can be undone. Similar with Gowasu, he shouldn't ask why Vegetto became undone since he already got that explanation.

It's not canon breaking but it is messy, I guess you can just explain it by saying Goku is a forgetful idiot. Canon breaking would be Shin and Kibito not fusing again at the end of Daima.

[Goten_jr]

Vegetto defusing by the gas in the Boo arc and by the time limit in the Zamasu arc can co-exist and are fine.

The problem comes with the interactions between Goku and Shin and later on with Gowasu.

Goku after seeing Shin and Kibito defused in the U6 arc is shocked and demands an explanation but this contradicts Daima since he was already explained how their "permanent" fusion can be undone. Similar with Gowasu, he shouldn't ask why Vegetto became undone since he already got that explanation.

It's not canon breaking but it is messy. Canon breaking would be Shin and Kibito not fusing again at the end of Daima.

Why is Daima even considered more canon than Super? Daima does not even have a Manga ( which was the Main Argument for GT being not canon back in the Days).

At this Point the closest Thing to canon continuation of the Buu Arc is still the Super Manga

[M16U3L2015]

Vegetto defusing by the gas in the Boo arc and by the time limit in the Zamasu arc can co-exist and are fine.

The problem comes with the interactions between Goku and Shin and later on with Gowasu.

Goku after seeing Shin and Kibito defused in the U6 arc is shocked and demands an explanation but this contradicts Daima since he was already explained how their "permanent" fusion can be undone. Similar with Gowasu, he shouldn't ask why Vegetto became undone since he already got that explanation.

It's not canon breaking but it is messy. Canon breaking would be Shin and Kibito not fusing again at the end of Daima.

Why is Daima even considered more canon than Super? Daima does not even have a Manga ( which was the Main Argument for GT being not canon back in the Days).

At this Point the closest Thing to canon continuation of the Buu Arc is still the Super Manga

The main argument that GT is not canon is that Toriyama was not involved in any way beyond designing the logo.

Super, both anime and manga, have Toriyama involved in some way.

Just because something is in manga format doesn't make it canon, if it were, all DB spin-off mangas would be canon.

[tonysoprano300]

Vegetto defusing by the gas in the Boo arc and by the time limit in the Zamasu arc can co-exist and are fine.

The problem comes with the interactions between Goku and Shin and later on with Gowasu.

Goku after seeing Shin and Kibito defused in the U6 arc is shocked and demands an explanation but this contradicts Daima since he was already explained how their "permanent" fusion can be undone. Similar with Gowasu, he shouldn't ask why Vegetto became undone since he already got that explanation.

It's not canon breaking but it is messy. Canon breaking would be Shin and Kibito not fusing again at the end of Daima.

Why is Daima even considered more canon than Super? Daima does not even have a Manga ( which was the Main Argument for GT being not canon back in the Days).

At this Point the closest Thing to canon continuation of the Buu Arc is still the Super Manga

My guess is that Daima is 100% a Toriyama story, and that Super is more so just based on the outlines he provides. Then again the Super anime was already inconsistent with the original manga when they portrayed the History of Trunks in the form of the TV special and not in the form of the bonus chapter from Toriyama's manga. Retcons can still be part of canon if you stretch it hard enough, we could reason that Goku just forgot these things...which wouldn't be unheard of for how he's depicted in Super anyway. It really depends on how Daima plays out by the end.

[LuckyLuke]

If it is a new continuity it is already more coherent by being a direct sequel to the Buu saga, delving into some of the elements left undone. Super I think would go on with the manga and other animated projects. Also I think Daima will insert some things from Super by reinterpreting them, like universe 7 and the multiverse.

[Goten_jr]

Vegetto defusing by the gas in the Boo arc and by the time limit in the Zamasu arc can co-exist and are fine.

The problem comes with the interactions between Goku and Shin and later on with Gowasu.

Goku after seeing Shin and Kibito defused in the U6 arc is shocked and demands an explanation but this contradicts Daima since he was already explained how their "permanent" fusion can be undone. Similar with Gowasu, he shouldn't ask why Vegetto became undone since he already got that explanation.

It's not canon breaking but it is messy. Canon breaking would be Shin and Kibito not fusing again at the end of Daima.

Why is Daima even considered more canon than Super? Daima does not even have a Manga ( which was the Main Argument for GT being not canon back in the Days).

At this Point the closest Thing to canon continuation of the Buu Arc is still the Super Manga

My guess is that Daima is 100% a Toriyama story, and that Super is more so just based on the outlines he provides. Then again the Super anime was already inconsistent with the original manga when they portrayed the History of Trunks in the form of the TV special and not in the form of the bonus chapter from Toriyama's manga. Retcons can still be part of canon if you stretch it hard enough, we could reason that Goku just forgot these things...which wouldn't be unheard of for how he's depicted in Super anyway. It really depends on how Daima plays out by the end.

I think Daima will just be a Side Story tbh a little Adventure with 20 Episodes placed right after the Buu arc and I don't think it will have a big Impact in Future Dragon Ball arcs And even if it's in Super Continuity we would be litterally be 9 Story Arcs in without ONE single Daima Exclusive Reference/Plotpoint.

[Rafa Fast]

Daima does not even have a Manga ( which was the Main Argument for GT being not canon back in the Days).

The main argument that GT is not canon is that Toriyama was not involved in any way beyond designing the logo.
Super, both anime and manga, have Toriyama involved in some way.
Just because something is in manga format doesn't make it canon, if it were, all DB spin-off mangas would be canon.

I personally wouldn't use any of these arguments to say that GT is not canon, but rather the argument that GT was solely made to be a sequel to the Dragon Ball->Dragon Ball Z anime as stated by Takao Koyama, which are a separate continuity created by Toei and has nothing to do with the manga.

Then Super anime was already inconsistent with the original manga when they portrayed the History of Trunks in the form of the TV special and not in the form of the bonus chapter from Toriyama's manga.

Honestly that's far from being one of the weirdest aspects of Super anime's continuity. Super Anime was made to be separate from the Dragon Bal/Z anime continuity, but we somehow see references to Z filler material in Super anime with no explanation, so either what came before the Super anime is a version of DB/Z that is identical to the original manga or a version that is similar to the original manga but with some things from Toei's old continuity mixed in, we'll never know (I highly doubt it's Kai though as some people say, Kai isn't even a separate continuity, it's just the same DBZ anime but shorter, some of the filler stuff is even kept)

If it is a new continuity it is already more coherent by being a direct sequel to the Buu saga, delving into some of the elements left undone. Super I think would go on with the manga and other animated projects. Also I think Daima will insert some things from Super by reinterpreting them, like universe 7 and the multiverse.

I have thought the same, a lot of people liked the concepts and ideas introduced in Super, so did Toyotaro, Toei and the rest, so it's unlikely they would forget them.
But there is the fact that Super is extremely popular and a huge success, so I don't see any of them (Toriyama included) thinking that Daima should be disconnected from Super, unless Daima is really meant to be just somekind of minor "spin off" project, but so far, it is connected to Super.

I think Daima will just be a Side Story tbh a little Adventure with 20 Episodes placed right after the Buu arc and I don't think it will have a big Impact in Future Dragon Ball arcs And even if it's in Super Continuity we would be litterally be 9 Story Arcs in without ONE single Daima Exclusive Reference/Plotpoint.

That too, which is my fear as I hope they will use Daima stuff for future stories, either Daima will indeed be a veeeeery self-contained story, or the 9 stories we got from Super so far were all very conveniently completely unrelated to the Makai stuff and what's coming next will be using Daima stuff.
I don't know but I feel that the reason (or one of the reasons) that made Toriyama feel the need to make this story take place in between Boo Saga and Super is because of the growth in the series' cosmology and power scaling.

Kami of the Earth --> Spirit World and the Kaios --> Behind the DBs and their Creators --> Kaioshins and the Kaioshin-kai -->Makai and Makaijins-->Hakaishins-->Zeno and the Multiverse

If we were introduced to the Makai and its concepts after Super, it would just feel very weird as Super escalated the powers way too much at this point, and the strongest beings from Makai might all be weaker than SSJ God Goku and above.
Though if you think about it, it doesn't make sense, for making Goku and everyone weaker, then these people might not even be at Dabura's level, so maybe it's unlikely that we are going to see someone stronger than Boo here.
You can think that this is a weak excuse, and Toriyama could've very well made Daima a post-Super story by making the strongest beings in Makai god level creatures (like Heroes did), many people wanted for the Makai to be explored for a long time, but if we consider that the people there aren't that powerful for Super's standards, then we can very well understand Toriyama's insistence in not commenting about this place/dimension throughout all of Super, because the people there are weaker than the villains presented even in the Boo Saga.

I just don't say that for me this could very well happen after EoZ because the callback to the Boo saga makes me think that maybe they plan to justify the need for this story to take place before Super, with it being related to a strong connection with Boo Saga and that's why it has to happen right after it and not 4/10 years after.

I remember reading that Daima was in production for 4 years, if it's true, 4 years ago we were finishing the Moro Saga, the reveal about Namekujins not coming from Namekusei in the Granolah saga could be something that Toriyama told Toyotaro to adress in the manga as he was already working in Daima at the time.

Also, I personally think that maybe we shouldn't turn on the red alert in case the Kaioshin and Kibito end up not fusing again in the end of the story, no, I'm not saying that we'll need to use the "Toriyama forgot!" excuse again, but rather "Toriyama did it on purpose"
As other user pointed out before, maybe Toriyama anways wanted unfused Kaioshin from the start before BoG (or even Tarble OVA), and due to the character being too irrelevant for Kami to Kami and the next stories, he ended up forgetting to tell Toei and Toyotaro that Kibitoshin should not appear, so when we take from his own hands, we can see how exactly imagined it to be, like the classic art for KtK with Kaioshin:

Spoiler:

And of course, in the Super manga, Kibitoshin is defused is much earlier, in the Beerus saga, while in the anime it takes two more sagas for thart to happen (you can say that maybe they defused in Freeza Resurrection saga, but they still only told us in U6 saga and they don't specificy when that was done)
Makes sense for me because we all know that Toriyama is more familiar with the manga of Super than the anime, so this "correction" was seen in the manga first.
Kaioshin will be a important character here, so Toriyama felt the need to explain it.

I would also like to say that nowadays everytime Toei makes a new Dragon Ball animation, they use the manga as basis, after the Super anime ended, DBS broly was made with the manga in mind as they ignore material that was seen in the anime and considers material that is from the manga only, same with Super Hero, a few references to the anime still happens here and there because casual watcher only follows the anime, but we can very well see that they choose to use mostly the manga as basis, and I believe with Daima will be no different, which was probably good for Toriyama as it is the version of the story he was familiar with.

[The S]

It'd be funny if every post-Z series we got just overwrote the last one as the new "canon"

[Koitsukai]

Not really, it adds more info about the earrings.
Potaras originally had one (implicit) way to not be permanent (Buu), DBS introduced the soft retcon of the earring being permanent only for gods and having a time limit for mortals. And now Daima says that both are good, it's temporary for mortals and Buu can defuse even the gods.

Re-reading the FT arc in the manga, Goku never asks about it, but Vegeta is shocked at learning it isn't permanent (maybe Geets didn't pay attention to Shin's explanation, wasn't he busy pigging out?).
Shin is the one that ends up looking dumb, saying "So, it wasn't Buu, it was the time limit"... even though it probably was Buu because it wasn't that much time that went by. Shit, he looks even more dumb now because if it wasn't an hour and they still defused, then why would they last longer when they should be using more power vs Zamasu? but what else could they do.

In any case, it's good that it was Buu's insides because then Vegito's plan was 2 seconds away from being an utter tragedy.

As to how or why Goku does not connect the dots when he sees Shin defused again, maybe since Buu was already there with the gang, he is not understanding how or when they defused. And, wasn't Buu asleep during RoF? maybe that's why they had to ask Porunga.
And why are they fused again? perhaps, being this a story about Kaioshin-looking people, Shin needed more power to join the fight and decided to stay like that for some reason (not wanting to mess with Buu again/ not wanting to use the DBs for their own personal reasons/ remaining fused might have prevented the whole Gomah situation on Earth?).

[The Monkey King]

Why is Daima even considered more canon than Super? Daima does not even have a Manga ( which was the Main Argument for GT being not canon back in the Days).

At this Point the closest Thing to canon continuation of the Buu Arc is still the Super Manga

The medium does NOT matter. What matters is the degree of Toriyama's involvement.

Actually The actual closest thing to a canon continuation of the Buu saga before Daima were the four movies WRITTEN by Toriyama.

Daima is the most involved Toriyama had been with an animated DB project besides the four movies.

Toriyama's involvement with GT was the same degree as his involvement with the Toei movies (some character designs)