What not start fresh with Dragon Ball?

[Grimlock]

Who said people loathe the lore?

People themselves. I also regrettably took some time to see the feedback on Youtube and they made their sentiment about lore very clear too.

[Luso Saiyan]

Who said people loathe the lore?

People themselves. I also regrettably took some time to see the feedback on Youtube and they made their sentiment about lore very clear too.

I fail to see anyone loathing lore. Questioning lore or criticizing how lore is presented (and even those instances are sparse enough to not justify generalizations) is not the same as loathing lore.

[JulieYBM]

Broken record here, but I think this really needs to be amended to "Shonen fans need to watch stuff other than Shonen". i.e. "Grow the fuck up and watch stuff other than children's cartoons."

Plenty of Dragon Ball fans 'round here watch stuff other than Dragon Ball: its just typically stuff like Naruto, One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, My Hero Academia, etc. and not much else besides that.

I decided to specify Dragon Ball fans because there's a surprisingly large number who really only do watch Dragon Ball.

I'll go so far as to specificy even further: battle manga/anime fans need to get out of the battle manga mines. It's boring as hell to read how limited the scope of imagination there is in discussion because all people do is regurtitate the same, intentionally restricted material over-and-over.

I've got a similar bone to pick with a lot of more recent queer media, in that the mainstream commercial stuff is really sanitized, because you can't really make a film or television series where there's sex going on, or queer people telling those queer stories, because everything has to be clipped down and simplified and made "not too gay" for anyone older than, it feels like, thirty. I've been on a Gregg Araki kick the last few weeks and holy fuck is his stuff emotionally true and gorgeously made. As much as I love something like, say, Heartstopper, you can tell that it's made for a more sanitized crowd.


Anyway, yeah, I suggest getting out and watching literally anything that isn't about two teenagers beating the shit out of each other, unless that shit's not meant to appeal to a capitalist franchising market or what the fuck ever.

Shit, go read queer romance and body horror, maybe it'll make you trans or somethin'.

[tonysoprano300]

Because Dragon Ball is ultimately Goku's story, and it would be near impossible to create a character good enough to fill his shoes.

If they were going to start fresh with new characters, you could argue that it might as well be a new IP, and not Dragon Ball.

Something like Star Wars can pull it off, but DB is so synonymous with Goku that people just wouldn't be interested without him in it.

Batman is the story of Bruce Wayne, but we still have multiple comic series that don’t feature him as protagonist.
As much as I love Goku, there are DB characters who make compelling protagonists. History of Trunks is arguably one of the best DB stories we’ve ever gotten, and Trunks at this point is probably a more dimensional character. if we’re keeping it real Goku himself was sidelined for much of the Namek and Cell arcs, hell the Cell arc is beloved by many and Goku only took center stage around the time Perfect Cell was born, and even then it was Gohan who took the mantle of protagonist shortly after.

I don’t expect them to ever abandon Goku, but I wouldn’t call it impossible. A talented writing staff could absolutely do it

[Kunzait_83]

I've got a similar bone to pick with a lot of more recent queer media, in that the mainstream commercial stuff is really sanitized, because you can't really make a film or television series where there's sex going on, or queer people telling those queer stories, because everything has to be clipped down and simplified and made "not too gay" for anyone older than, it feels like, thirty. I've been on a Gregg Araki kick the last few weeks and holy fuck is his stuff emotionally true and gorgeously made. As much as I love something like, say, Heartstopper, you can tell that it's made for a more sanitized crowd.

1) Gregg Araki's work is and always has been outstanding. Cannot recommend enough that people go check out his films. The Doom Generation, Totally Fucked Up, Nowhere, and The Living End are all personal favorites of mine, and Mysterious Skin is a goddamned genuine masterpiece. Hell, even Smiley Face - stupid and ridiculous as it is - is almost a perfect Stoner Comedy and is 1000 times funnier and more endearing than tedious crap like Dude Where's My Car?

2) This is partly an outgrowth of a trend that's been going on with a LOT of media broadly in general for much of the past decade or so, which is a general decrease in (at least overt/explicit) sexual content across a ton of media, at least when compared relatively to earlier decades. Obviously this trend is tenfold more severe and stark with queer media (for all the reasons you noted, i.e. "gay, but not TOO gay"), but its to one extent or another also somewhat evident even in a lot of "straight/non-queer" media as well.

Not to say that there's NO overt/explicit sexual content out there still, obviously there is: but the overall, broad trend of most mainstream media produced has definitely been vastly more sexually sanitized across much of the 2010s to now. Again, at least when compared relatively to decades like the 70s, 80s, 90s, and much of the early 2000s. Point being, if this is noticeable across even straight/non-queer media, then its definitely going to also be felt even that much more in queer media (for all the expectedly infuriating but unsurprising reasons).

Anyway, yeah, I suggest getting out and watching literally anything that isn't about two teenagers beating the shit out of each other, unless that shit's not meant to appeal to a capitalist franchising market or what the fuck ever.

Probably as good a point as any to mention that Osu!! Karate Bu (a Bosozoku/Delinquent Martial Arts/Wuxia Seinen manga that I've gone on about a few times in the past on here, including in the Wuxia thread) is now for the very first time in over 35 years officially licensed and available in English in its complete entirety.

It overlaps a ton with Dragon Ball of course: most all of Dragon Ball's familiar Wuxia/martial arts fantasy tropes are readily present (giant, over the top, super Ki powered martial arts battles that devastate the entire landscape, training under various masters to learn secret, powerful new fighting techniques, etc.), but within the modern context of warring Japanese street gangs, so there's a fair amount of crime story tropes present as well.

So, hilariously contrary to what Julie just said here, I am indeed recommending a series consisting quite literally of largely teenagers beating the absolute dogshit out of one another.

Hell, just like Dragon Ball it even starts out relatively comedic and lighthearted (early on its way more of a Be-Bop High School/Cromartie High School-esque satire of Delinquent Manga stories), before gradually and organically shifting into a more "serious/dramatic" street gang/crime manga mixed with all the over the top martial arts fantasy/wuxia stuff. So the DB parallels are very, very glaring and obvious.

I bring it up here anyhow though because, at a bare minimum, its at least aimed at a much older, adult demographic than is Dragon Ball and much of its "Battle Manga" offspring have been, so it at the very least can perhaps maybe function as something of a baby-stepping stone away from the familiar confines of Shonen for some folks. To gradually wean oneself off of the stuff, if you're not the kind of person that does well with being thrown into the deepest end of the pool right away.

It certainly helps that, for all its own flaws, its still a great deal better executed at what its setting out to be than pretty much just about all of the post-Dragon Ball "Battle Shonen" that's been churned out over the ensuing 30 years. Helps also that OKB was a direct contemporary of Dragon Ball's, much like Yu Yu Hakusho was, and not a late-to-the-party after-the-fact ripoff (OKB ran from 1985 to 1996, relative to DB's 1984 to 1995 run, so they were almost directly side-by-side across their entirety).

So if you want an idea of what a "Wuxia-like Martial Artists slugging it out in drawn out battles with gigantic Ki attacks to see who's the strongest" type of Manga can look like when its NOT aimed at grade school children (and is mixed in with hardboiled street crime plotlines about Japanese gangland violence)... then here you go.

Basically this series answers the question "what if Dragon Ball snapped on a Potara earring with a very Japanese version of Peaky Blinders?" or "Hey, what if Peaky Blinders were set in 1980s/90s Japan instead of 1910s/20s Britain, and the cast all knew Dragon Ball/Wuxia-esque Ki-based martial arts that could level whole city blocks?"

And again, its now officially licensed and fully translated from start to finish (43 volumes, exactly one volume longer than DB), so now's the best time there ever was to dive into it.

Trigger warning though in that, due to being centered on street gangs, the Yakuza, political corruption, and other criminal activities whilst also being aimed at an adult demo, it does contain some occasional depictions of rape here and there.

The I guess "good" news though - aside from the fact that there isn't too much of it really, about three instances of it across a 43 volume series - is at the very least on the rare instances where rape does happen in this series, its always suitably played for genuine stark horror and is clearly intended to be very ugly, disgusting, and cruel, is treated with the gravity and seriousness it warrants, and its never shown as either A) a fetishized turn-on for the audience (like far too much Japanese media has been guilty of at various points) or B) a trivialized and silly joke like Roshi's SA antics in DB.

There's still some very unsubtle paternalistic/patriarchal subtext in some of the fallout from those scenes of course (of the "women need men to protect them" variety), since its a Japanese Men's action/martial arts manga from the 80s and 90s: but compared to tons of other examples out there (both in general, and in Japan specifically), it still handles that kind of content relatively well all things considered, and its certainly lightyears and lightyears beyond the callous thoughtlessness of stuff like DB's Roshi gags (the enormous gulf in the age of the target demos is especially apparent here).

The bar for these things is without a doubt typically somewhere in a basement in Hell (in a sane world, it'd be set a LOT higher than at just "don't trivialize or fetishize rape"), but OKB at least manages to mostly more or less clear it - albeit whilst scraping its knee against the side of it - for whatever little that's worth. Anyways, just a courtesy heads-up on that.

Shit, go read queer romance and body horror, maybe it'll make you trans or somethin'.

Hell yeah, body horror. NOW we're talkin'!

Yes, seconding that, by all means everyone here go check out as much body horror as you possibly can.

It'll change your life.

[LoganForkHands73]

I've seen variations of this topic go round and round and round this forum since the day I joined. Here, there has always been a lot of stubborn resistance to the very premise that Dragon Ball could ever have a "fresh start" with all new characters, or a long-term spin-off series featuring the various new generation warriors.

The same old counterarguments get wheeled out time and again. I used to subscribe to most of them, but after so long, it starts to read like pearl-clutching terror at the prospect of the series experimenting or changing course in any significant way. Either that, or it's always like "omg, you actually care about lore?? What are you, some kind of nerd??" Yes, and so are you.

I grow less and less convinced by this usual reductive retort of "just watch something else". Switching around protagonists or exploring another area of the setting might not have to completely alter the makeup of Dragon Ball, but they can provide something new and interesting if handled well. It's a cop out, but any idea can push through the scrutiny if it's really well-executed. And if you ask me, proposing a Dragon Ball continuation focusing on a new generation of characters really doesn't sound that crazy. It's actually a pretty reasonable suggestion that even Toriyama seriously considered but for some reason, it's always treated with abject disdain.

Moreover, what is actually so wrong with having some attachment to the Dragon Ball universe? Sure, Toriyama didn't always put the most brainpower into worldbuilding and lore, but watching Dragon Ball Daima, I really get the feeling that Toriyama cared deeply about creating a rich and interesting world for its own sake, beyond the usual implications of "oh neat, a giant fish... now are there stronger guys here for Goku to fight?" You also see that in his other self-contained manga series which, as someone here pointed out, can definitely scratch the Toriyama-verse-beyond-Goku itch.

If someone is interested in seeing a story set in this world, with the elements specifically tied to it (i.e. the Dragon Balls themselves, the alien planets and realms), obviously people can't get that from some other unrelated series. To say that there's absolutely nothing unique or valuable about the Dragon Ball setting is just plain disingenuous. There's plenty of media out there that crib from Dragon Ball, sometimes extremely blatantly to the point of borderline plagiarism - it's never the same vibe. And as much shared DNA as you can clearly see in Dragon Ball's many, many wuxia/wulin/kung fu media inspirations, well... blasphemous as it is to say, they're not Dragon Ball either. I ain't likely to find any Namekians or Super Saiyans in an old Jackie Chan movie, much as I love them. The visuals and tone aren't going to be like what Toriyama drew, which is an enormous part of Dragon Ball's appeal.

As much as Goku is the lynchpin for so much of the original manga, there are lengthy stretches where the other cast hold the fort and do the majority of legwork in keeping the plot moving. There's a reason all of the Dragon Team have their own dedicated fandoms: we spend more than enough time following their journeys that they could all conceivably be called protagonists in their own right. Super Hero felt like a proof of concept for a major Dragon Ball sequel project, not a one-shot gaiden story, being headlined by someone other than Goku or Vegeta and it was a huge success.

With Toriyama's passing, the future of the franchise beyond its original author is uncertain. Within his lifetime, Dragon Ball safely remained in a 40+ year timeframe following Goku and his friends. Other writers may not feel comfortable expanding the story directly and may sidestep into Universe 6 to follow the Saiyans there, or who knows what else... if they decide to do anything new at all. Considering the legal quagmire Dragon Ball is apparently tied up in with the various rights holders, it may be genuinely finished for the foreseeable future, but we'll have to wait and see.

[JulieYBM]

Because Dragon Ball is ultimately Goku's story, and it would be near impossible to create a character good enough to fill his shoes.

If they were going to start fresh with new characters, you could argue that it might as well be a new IP, and not Dragon Ball.

Something like Star Wars can pull it off, but DB is so synonymous with Goku that people just wouldn't be interested without him in it.

Batman is the story of Bruce Wayne, but we still have multiple comic series that don’t feature him as protagonist.

I know that Bruce definitely gets the majority of the association with the Batman title, but I do think that characters like Terry McGinnis prove that these superhero titles really don't belong to just one character. Heck, even The Flash, Green Lantern and Robin prove as much, too. There really isn't an equivalent for that sort of legacy aspect in Dragon Ball, though.

1) Gregg Araki's work is and always has been outstanding. Cannot recommend enough that people go check out his films. The Doom Generation, Totally Fucked Up, Nowhere, and The Living End are all personal favorites of mine, and Mysterious Skin is a goddamned genuine masterpiece. Hell, even Smiley Face - stupid and ridiculous as it is - is almost a perfect Stoner Comedy and is 1000 times funnier and more endearing than tedious crap like Dude Where's My Car?

Yeah, I have a local friend who turned me on to Araki's work. I love it so much. I started with Mysterious Skin first and it was the most deeply unpleasant experience I have ever had watching a film. It's a goddamned masterpiece, but holy fucking shit, that film's subject manner is murder. Wendy is literally me, though, fr fr.

I went back to Totally Fucked Up next. The way that it's shot and edited is so addicting, and the dialogue feels so real. It was like hanging out with my queer friends, which makes sense given it's a indie queer film lol. I really enjoyed the interview format, but also the cinematography on the scenes shot on 16mm is so fucking good. Araki shot the film himself and I'm just constantly amazed by the quality of the cinematography and naturalistic performances of the rather complex dialogue, despite the fucking film being shot without a crew or fucking permits. Like, they had to have been shooting fast as hell without fucking permits!

I saw The Doom Generation the other day. Not nearly as many good shot selections, but everything else is top-notch and has the added effect of gorgeous sets. I really love how Araki just lets so much of the film happen in the motel rooms just so the camera can capture those sets longer. I didn't seen that ending coming at all, and I almost regret watching Mysterious Skin first. Mysterious Skin—although it is based on a book—is somehow still more horrifying than the ending of The Doom Generation. It's a masterpiece of a film, though. James Duval gives all-time performances as Andy in Totally Fucked Up and The Doom Generation. Rose McGowan's every line delivery in The Doom Generation is pure perfection.

I'll probably watch Nowhere or The Living End next.

2) This is partly an outgrowth of a trend that's been going on with a LOT of media broadly in general for much of the past decade or so, which is a general decrease in (at least overt/explicit) sexual content across a ton of media, at least when compared relatively to earlier decades. Obviously this trend is tenfold more severe and stark with queer media (for all the reasons you noted, i.e. "gay, but not TOO gay"), but its to one extent or another also somewhat evident even in a lot of "straight/non-queer" media as well.

Not to say that there's NO overt/explicit sexual content out there still, obviously there is: but the overall, broad trend of most mainstream media produced has definitely been vastly more sexually sanitized across much of the 2010s to now. Again, at least when compared relatively to decades like the 70s, 80s, 90s, and much of the early 2000s. Point being, if this is noticeable across even straight/non-queer media, then its definitely going to also be felt even that much more in queer media (for all the expectedly infuriating but unsurprising reasons).

Yeah, I'm aware of the broader trends, it just tends to hit queer characters/stories a little harder. This is a large part of why I've been enjoying Araki's filmography, because it feels like the limiters are nearly entirely off. Hell, his films fucking use the word 'bisexual'! That feels like it's impossible for most queer film and television characters. Watching his films makes me want to create similar works with trans characters.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the sexuality of recent films like Challengers and Love Lies Bleeding, though. The Lighthouse and Saltburn have also more recent films that I felt oozed with some punch, too.

I get most of my good queer storytelling and sex appeal from independent prose fiction these days, anyway. I recently read Kimmy by Alyson Greaves and that shit is both horrifying and Extremely Trans, so I definitely suggest that for anyone who is into the idea of being turned into a robot that has to follow orders lol.

Anyway! Dragon Ball! It's a series alright. I do think it's possible to create a good story set in that universe without Gokuu, though. Heck, I think the best parts of modern Dragon Ball have been the scenes where Gokuu is not the focus! Go let Tomioka Atsuhiro write a Jiren-centric POV retelling of the Tournament of Power!

[Kunzait_83]

And if you ask me, proposing a Dragon Ball continuation focusing on a new generation of characters really doesn't sound that crazy. It's actually a pretty reasonable suggestion that even Toriyama seriously considered but for some reason, it's always treated with abject disdain.

For whatever its worth, I've always consistently been an ardent defender of the whole "passing the torch to the next generation" theme/throughline that the Boo arc set up and then somewhat/partly aborted. Again, broken record here, but "passing the torch to the next generation" is one of the oldest, most essential Wuxia/martial arts fiction themes out there. Dragon Ball is nothing if not a compendium of of classic martial arts fantasy tropes and themes, and having the series fully commit to the "next generation" theme would be 1000% fitting.

I like Goku as much as the next person, but he was never my number 1 favorite character in the series by any means.

I ain't likely to find any Namekians or Super Saiyans in an old Jackie Chan movie, much as I love them. The visuals and tone aren't going to be like what Toriyama drew, which is an enormous part of Dragon Ball's appeal.

Absolutely 1000% agreed on the visuals of course: Toriyama's art style, aesthetic, and overall design sense are completely and utterly unique and one of a kind, and you're NEVER going to see its like anywhere else, period.

The tone however... yeah, no. I gotta part ways with you quite heavily on that one. Dragon Ball's tone (not just mixing comedy and martial arts, but particularly mixing sly whimsy and toilet humor and martial arts fantasy, and tonally whiplashing deftly between stark serious drama/violence and silly whimsical nonsense and back again) has been done a LOT of times before, during, and after it.

Unless there's something else more specifically that you're referring to by "tone" here, then I can simply name a LOT of wuxia material out there that has almost all of the ingredients of DB's general tone: in the same and various other combinations with one another. Whimsy, irreverence, toilet humor, drama, endearing characters, violent martial arts, silly martial arts, magic, mysticism, sci fi, gadgets, etc. all of it.

I'm not going to call you Logan out for this in particular, but I will say broadly/generally that for the most part most folks overall in the Western DB fandom simply have just not watched nearly enough Wuxia or explored it all that much deeply to really make that kind of call. Everything from vast gigantic chunks of the Shaw Bros. and Golden Harvest outputs to half the Wuxia to ever come out of Taiwan in the 70s, 80s, and 90s have all done DB's tone, both in the same manner and in countless variances.

Visuals and aesthetics though, you're right on about though: there will never, ever be another Akira Toriyama in that department.

As much as Goku is the lynchpin for so much of the original manga, there are lengthy stretches where the other cast hold the fort and do the majority of legwork in keeping the plot moving. There's a reason all of the Dragon Team have their own dedicated fandoms: we spend more than enough time following their journeys that they could all conceivably be called protagonists in their own right. Super Hero felt like a proof of concept for a major Dragon Ball sequel project, not a one-shot gaiden story, being headlined by someone other than Goku or Vegeta and it was a huge success.

I've said this many, many times throughout the years, and will say it again: I've always carried a strong torch for a prequel series starring very young versions of Muten Roshi, Grandpa Gohan, Gyuumao, Tsuru Sennin, Tao Pai Pai, Uranai Baba, Mutaito, and the nameless Namekian/Son of Katatsu, set hundreds and hundreds of years on Earth before Goku was born, much less landed and that explores the Martial Arts community of the Dragon Ball world that Muten Roshi (and later, Grandpa Gohan) grew up within, and from which the nameless Namekian would eventually rise to become Kami (and spawn Daimao) within.

There's my all time number one most desired Goku-free (and Saiya-jin free) Dragon Ball spinoff. Always has been for 30+ years now, and its one of the few concepts for a new DB series that would automatically straight up front from the jump get me incredibly jazzed and hyped up for.

The same old counterarguments get wheeled out time and again. I used to subscribe to most of them, but after so long, it starts to read like pearl-clutching terror at the prospect of the series experimenting or changing course in any significant way.

Going back to my whole assessment of DB Super (and the DB Revival in general as a whole) from day one, moment one: all of the very best stuff across ALL of Super/the Revival has been anytime it does new things/adds new concepts/explores Wuxia themes & tropes that the original run of DB never got around to touching on. Multiverse: awesome! Wuxin/Mushin: awesome! God Ki: awesome! New pantheon of deities: awesome! An evil/psychotic Kaioshin gone rogue: awesome!

Meanwhile all of the absolute worst, most tedious parts for me have been anytime it tries to retread and nostalgia-flog old stuff for cheap 'Member Berries. Super Saiya-jin recolors: lame! Freeza returning as a main villain: lame! (though Freeza being forced to belligerently to work together with the heroes: new, interesting dynamic! Points for that!) Dragging Brolli back into things: lame! (phenomenal animation for his movie aside, and at least they tried sort of putting a different spin on him)

Stagnating the timeline perpetually in a post-Boo/pre-EoZ limbo seemingly forever, like this shit is The Simpsons: SUPER lame! Constantly retconning and re-retconning and retreading Bardock's original, perfect, self-contained story: SUPER fucking lame! Bringing back the Red Ribbon Army (kind of): also lame! Revisiting GT's "Lets de-age Goku into a kid" but this time we'll do it for EVERYONE ELSE too: yeah, pretty fucking lame!

Etc. etc. etc.

I'm consistent and always have been from the jump: if you're going to bring back Dragon Ball from cryostasis, you should be constantly doing new things with it and exploring new stuff within it. Big shakeups. Things should always be shifting and changing wildly from arc to arc. That's part of what made the original run so fun and fresh and addictive: it was constantly reinventing itself, never stagnating in any terminal status quo, and was never afraid to push the story, characters, and world forward. There was a restless experimentation with the original run of the series that made it incredibly exciting to follow week to week, month to month during its original run. Everything felt chaotic and unpredictable and sort of manic.

Wuxia Dr. Slump! Magic and Daoism meets wacky Toriyama sci fi technology! Kung Fu tournaments! Comedic Fascist Army! Game of Death homage! Kung Fu Gag Manga Halloween Monster Mash! Then things go from comedy to (sort of) serious! There's Kung Fu assassins! Demons! Oh look, Goku grows up! And he has a son! There's the afterlife and Eastern gods! Wow, Goku's an alien! We're now exploring outer space and meeting MORE aliens! And Space Nazis!

Now a mad scientist is creating cyborgs and a giant mutant insect man, and there's time travel! Gohan's grown up! And he has a kid brother now! And he's a Super Sentai/Tokusatsu/Henshin superhero! Pink Bubblegum Demon! Fusion! Kamikaze Ghosts! We're traveling inside the Bubblegum Demon's innards! Now everyone's old, and Gohan has a daughter, and the Bubblegum Demon is reincarnated as an Indian boy!

We still get SOME of that same breathless "throwing everything at the wall" creativity with the Revival/Super... but its hamstrung now because of the fact that Dragon Ball is now a Legacy/Nostalgia franchise. And we're also now even that much further deep into late-stage capitalism globally, and so virtually almost *nothing* can ever be TOO different or TOO risky lest we upset the shareholders and make .00002% less this quarter.

So now DB can't just do wild new surprising things anymore: it now had to also Replay The Old Hits. The Classics. i.e. Shit we've already seen and done before. So we get Super Saiya-jin but BLUE! And PINK! We get RETURNING CLASSIC VILLAINS! An ORANGE Piccolo! And the characters can't age or change too much anymore, because we're a Brand now, and Brands need to stay consistent and familiar.

That's really been my sole/main gripe with the Nu Dragon Ball: its great anytime its allowed to get breaths of the old "just making up weird, wild shit as we go along because its fun and cool" energy... but those come in between bouts of tedious "Hey, here's this thing you liked from the old series! You remember this, don't you?"



I don't hate the Revival/Super (Daima's still WAY too early to call), not by any stretch. I've liked a number of things from it quite a lot actually. Its just... way more of a mixed bag to me. And its for reasons that are frankly the exact OPPOSITE of nostalgia. I cannot stress enough how much I do not want nostalgia: I want brand new shit! I want to be surprised and caught off guard!

And things like Super Saiya-jin recolors and bringing back long-dead villain after long-dead villain and revisiting classic concept after classic concept, and characters no longer aging and time no longer marching forward, the sense of organic progression gone... yeah, that's the kind of thing that is EXACTLY what I'd expect from a soulless corporate nostalgia cash-grab rendition of DB. And to be sure, Nu Dragon Ball has not solely been that! Not at all! But it DOES have one foot in and one foot out of that. And that makes it... certainly not the WORST thing ever by any means, but also certainly far from ideal.

So yeah, I'd absolutely be all in favor of a whole "passing the torch to the next generation" move, or a side-character focused spinoff or whatnot: literally ANYTHING that pushes the series forward into new territory and keeps it from stagnating. Stagnation and status quo-mongering to me are the exact antithesis of the irreverent, anarchic spirit of the original DB run. And so far, much of the DB Revival has had one foot in and one foot out of that. It makes for sometimes fun, but also sometimes frustrating viewing.

So yeah: if this money train is going to continue further, then bring on the Next Generation torch passing! Bring on different POV/central characters! Literally anything to push things past the frozen-in-amber status quo that the series seem to have been stuck in since the Revival first began.

My one main stipulation however is against changing up the series' very core genre. What I mean is, while an "anything goes" spirit is overwhelmingly a part of DB's DNA, the main consistent throughline of DB has always been and should always remain that this is first and foremost a Martial Arts Fantasy series: i.e. this is a series about magically powered martial artists who beat the snot out of one another and who's primary aim is to compete and become even stronger and more skilled than they were before as fighters. That's core and foundational to everything that makes Dragon Ball Dragon Ball to begin with.

I say this because I certainly cringe at the notion that a lot of fans have of doing things like turning DB into some kind Yotsuba-esque Slice of Life sitcom, or other such similarly insane ideas I've seen batted around (like making the series into a full-on Star Trekkian Sci Fi series that ditches the martial arts/wuxia entirely in favor of just exploring different planets and alien races is another one I've seen come up from time to time).

Dragon Ball has a TON of flexibility and versatility as a franchise and there's tons and tons that you can do with it: but removing or downplaying its core identity as a martial arts fantasy serial is simply non-negotiable and runs directly counter to what it is and always has been consistently at its core. Its the foundation from which everything else hangs from, and without it it simply loses cohesion and the most vital constant of its entire existence to date.

The fact that something that critically elemental to the series is so often and easily lost on so much of the fanbase is and always has been very sad and somewhat baffling to me.

[Hellspawn28]

Because Dragon Ball is ultimately Goku's story, and it would be near impossible to create a character good enough to fill his shoes.

If they were going to start fresh with new characters, you could argue that it might as well be a new IP, and not Dragon Ball.

Something like Star Wars can pull it off, but DB is so synonymous with Goku that people just wouldn't be interested without him in it.

Batman is the story of Bruce Wayne, but we still have multiple comic series that don’t feature him as protagonist.

Dragon Ball is not a superhero comic where you can have mutiple characters that can pass the touch down to a new generation. Like with Kyle Rayner, Azrael, Miles Morales, etc. The closet wuxia that I can think of that did a new generation was with Street Figther 3. I love Street Fighter 3 (all its versions), even more than Street Fighter 2, but a lot of people didn’t like it because it introduced too many new characters. I feel like the same thing would happen if they did a new DB series with no Goku and the others. Which makes me glad that a series with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. never happen.

Dragon Ball is Goku's story, and Toryiama did try out a new generation before. He was trying to make Gohan as the main character, but he wasn't fit for the role.

[tonysoprano300]

I can acknowledge that there are very real distinctions between DB and American Comic Books. Obviously DB is not a superhero story and Goku doesn’t put on a costume thats meant to be symbolic of anything. The narrative justification for the passing of the torch in DB wouldn’t be the same as the narrative justification in Batman.
I only brought that up to illustrate that audiences were perfectly willing to accept other protagonists in those series, despite having a deep connection with the original. And those new protagonists were strong in their own right which is what made that transition easier.

In the case of DB, there was a precedent established that Muten Roshi was from the last generation of martial artists and Goku represented the ushering in of the newer generation. So its only seems natural that eventually Goku would grow to find himself in a position where he would be doing for Gohan(or whoever else) what Roshi did for him and that the spirit of the series would always be passed down from one generation to the next.

So i guess I take issue with the idea that moving past Goku into a new age is somehow antithetical to what the series is about or that its borderline impossible to accomplish. DB has already shown that we can get awesome stories that don’t feature Goku, like with GT for example I know lots of people who despise that series yet were willing to concede that “A Hero’s Legacy” was an excellent film.

Idk I feel like DB was trending in a certain direction originally with the introduction of Gohan and his rise to the top of the mountain then just pivoted away, leaving us in this weird limbo where nothing really feels like it’s going anywhere and the same status quo has existed since Boo was defeated.

[JulieYBM]

Putting aside, like, a full-on 'next generation series', I think there is plenty to consider in telling stories about already established side characters and antagonists. Stories about Piccolo Daimaou's first reign of terror and the lessons that the Muten Roushi learned from Mutaito's sacrifice, more Jiren, Kale, Caulifla and Ribrianne, or even more Videl stuff. Heck, wouldn't it be funny is a guy like Mr. Satan actually did marry a devil and now Videl has some hidden devil power to be awakened? Why not do the Future Trunks timeline through the eyes of Son Gohan, starting first with Gokuu defeating Mecha Freeza and Great King Cold and then through the hellfire of watching all of his friends die? Something nice and dark that ends with Gohan dying an easy death because of what he sees in Trunks?

I think it's better to think less in the long-form and more in the individual, short-form stories that could be told.

[jjgp1112]

Dragon Ball isn't just some Martial Arts show that happens to have Goku as a center character - he IS Dragon Ball. So a story with a completely new cast would be a little side series at best and they'd probably find some way to shoehorn Goku in anyway.

I would absolutely go for shows exploring the already existing characters that play around with the tone and style (*cough* my signature*cough*) but as far as a whole new cast, I just find myself going, "What's the point?"

[Dr. Casey]

Dragon Ball isn't just some Martial Arts show that happens to have Goku as a center character - he IS Dragon Ball. So a story with a completely new cast would be a little side series at best and they'd probably find some way to shoehorn Goku in anyway.

I would absolutely go for shows exploring the already existing characters that play around with the tone and style (*cough* my signature*cough*) but as far as a whole new cast, I just find myself going, "What's the point?"

Yeah, I actually think it's only a very small minority of stories where the world, setting, or premise is interesting enough that they can survive changing the entire cast. Generally speaking the characters are the heart of any story.

[super michael]

Digimon they change characters in every season.
Yu-Gi-Oh they change characters in the new season, even in continuation such as Yu-Gi-Oh to Yu-Gi-Oh GX.
Yashahime is the continuation of Inuyahsa and we get new generation characters.
Boruto is the continuation of Naruto and we get new generation of characters.
Shaman King got a continuation with new geneneration of characters.
Beyblade, Beyblade V Force and Beyblade G Revolution are continuation. Then Beyblade: Metal Fusion are a whole new set of characters.
The Seven Deadly Sin got new generation of characters in the Four Knights of the Apocalypse. Both the old generation and new generation appears.


For Dragon Ball they can focus on the new generation, while the old characters are still in the story or they can make whole new characters completely.

[TechExpert2021]

Digimon they change characters in every season.
Yu-Gi-Oh they change characters in the new season, even in continuation such as Yu-Gi-Oh to Yu-Gi-Oh GX.
Yashahime is the continuation of Inuyahsa and we get new generation characters.
Boruto is the continuation of Naruto and we get new generation of characters.
Shaman King got a continuation with new geneneration of characters.
Beyblade, Beyblade V Force and Beyblade G Revolution are continuation. Then Beyblade: Metal Fusion are a whole new set of characters.
The Seven Deadly Sin got new generation of characters in the Four Knights of the Apocalypse. Both the old generation and new generation appears.

What about the long-running Pokémon anime? IIRC Satoshi/Ash Ketchum is no longer the protagonist there, so...

[super michael]

Digimon they change characters in every season.
Yu-Gi-Oh they change characters in the new season, even in continuation such as Yu-Gi-Oh to Yu-Gi-Oh GX.
Yashahime is the continuation of Inuyahsa and we get new generation characters.
Boruto is the continuation of Naruto and we get new generation of characters.
Shaman King got a continuation with new geneneration of characters.
Beyblade, Beyblade V Force and Beyblade G Revolution are continuation. Then Beyblade: Metal Fusion are a whole new set of characters.
The Seven Deadly Sin got new generation of characters in the Four Knights of the Apocalypse. Both the old generation and new generation appears.

What about the long-running Pokémon anime? IIRC Satoshi/Ash Ketchum is no longer the protagonist there, so...

True you are correct, they did change Pokemon entire cast completely and Satoshi doesn't appear in Pokemon anime now. Satoshi has been the main character since the 90s.

There is also Inazuma Eleven, in the new season Inazuma Eleven GO that is about the new generation.
Major got a new season about the new generation, which is called Major 2nd.

[jjgp1112]

Digimon they change characters in every season.
Yu-Gi-Oh they change characters in the new season, even in continuation such as Yu-Gi-Oh to Yu-Gi-Oh GX.
Yashahime is the continuation of Inuyahsa and we get new generation characters.
Boruto is the continuation of Naruto and we get new generation of characters.
Shaman King got a continuation with new geneneration of characters.
Beyblade, Beyblade V Force and Beyblade G Revolution are continuation. Then Beyblade: Metal Fusion are a whole new set of characters.
The Seven Deadly Sin got new generation of characters in the Four Knights of the Apocalypse. Both the old generation and new generation appears.


For Dragon Ball they can focus on the new generation, while the old characters are still in the story or they can make whole new characters completely.

those other shows have been doing that shit from the very beginning. People can't get too attached to characters if they're shuffled out every couple seasons, not to mention stuff like Yu-Gi-Oh, Digimon, and Beyblade are thinly disgusted merchandise vehicles.

Dragon Ball has been the same core people for 40 years and counting. It's a unique situation compared to series like Inuyasha and such because ever since the video games in 02 it's been a perpetually existing property driven off nostalgia.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, BORUTO happened fifteen years into the franchise's life. That being said, BORUTO and NARUTO have always been about something a lot more tangible than growing stronger. That being said, I do still think just asking other creators what they would like to do with Dragon Ball is hardly misfire of an idea. It's art, let people make art!

[Grimlock]

not to mention stuff like Yu-Gi-Oh, Digimon, and Beyblade are thinly disgusted merchandise vehicles.

What are Yu-Gi-Oh! and Digimon promoting? The former can't be the cards because they were only released in 1999, while the franchise started in 1996. You could say that the latter was initially promoting tamagotchi, but I'd say it managed to evolve past that, I don't see one since my childhood days. Then again, I don't know about its sales today.

Dragon Ball has been the same core people for 40 years and counting.

Although Pokémon is a younger franchise, it is, however, a much more popular one. So it is a pretty big deal (and a testament) if they can change the protagonist after so long while still maintaining sales and being recognizable.

[Yuji]

It's very distasteful to claim or imply Dragon Ball has nothing to offer without Goku. Not to mention wrong, everyone loves the Bardock special.

And I speak as someone whose favourite is Goku, and I like him so ridiculously much more than all the others.