Official confirmation Toriyama wanted to end Dragonball at the Cell Saga

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I mean, he wanted to end things at Cell for personal reasons, but didn’t think it was the right place to wrap up the series, so he kept going... for two more years. It's crazy. He must've had a lot more fun with the Boo arc. I really like how he prioritized his own fun over public pressure. It's something we don’t see much today.

He said during an interview while Super was airing that he was glad he found a way to continue the franchise without sacrificing his health like he did back in the day. Fans always claim that Toriyama wanted to end DB before he actually did, but in fact, it likely would've gone on longer than it did had he not had to do all the work by himself. Between 2008 and 2024 we got an OVA, 4 movies, a 131 anime series, 2 manga arcs, and a limited 20 episode series. Toriyama clearly still had ideas left he wanted to explore, so this belief that DB would've ended before Buu for creative reasons is complete bullshit. Here's another tidbit that got lost in the mix when Toriyama was announced to have passed away: his family said he still had more stories to tell. I've been very vocal about my issues with modern DB, but it's great that this creative mind was able to bring these stories to life, and I really hope that these stories his family talked about can see the light of day somehow.

Two weekly mangas, one-shots, videogames, promotional art, movies (and other requests from the anime staff)... I wonder how how that's physically possible. He also had two kids...

Toriyama was one of the hardest working people in the industry, yet there are people who claim he was lazy or didn't care about his work.

[The Tori-bot]

Could someone kindly post the contents of the thread in here, for those of us who aren’t doing Twitter?

[JulieYBM]

Could someone kindly post the contents of the thread in here, for those of us who aren’t doing Twitter?

I believe that xcancel allows you to view the thread without needing to have an account?

[The Tori-bot]

Could someone kindly post the contents of the thread in here, for those of us who aren’t doing Twitter?

I believe that xcancel allows you to view the thread without needing to have an account?

subarashi.img. Thank you Julie! I can finally look at the nice things on there.

[JulieYBM]

Could someone kindly post the contents of the thread in here, for those of us who aren’t doing Twitter?

I believe that xcancel allows you to view the thread without needing to have an account?

subarashi.img. Thank you Julie! I can finally look at the nice things on there.

I love how the site is called 'CancelX', too, because those Nazi freaks would totally get pissy if you 'canceled' them lol

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I believe that xcancel allows you to view the thread without needing to have an account?

This is perfect; thank you.

Here are some very interesting pieces of information:

During the final phase of the Cell saga, Toriyama repeatedly expressed his intention to end Dragon Ball with that narrative arc.

This is direct confirmation that Toriyama indeed wanted to end Dragon Ball after the battle with Cell.

Strong pressure came form the editorial team for the story to go on, pushing Toriyama to continue further.

The Buu saga happened as a result of Jump pressuring Toriyama to continue past Cell.

Toriyama and Takeda insisted that the story should definitely conclude with the end of the Majin Buu saga.

Jump basically wanted Toriyama to continue further after Buu, but he put his foot down this time and gave them a definitive no.

As the Buu saga took shape, Toriyama seemed to be having a lot of fun working on it.

Despite being hesitant to continue after Cell, Toriyama still enjoyed working on the series.

Towards the end of the Cell saga, Toriyama might have thought of wrapping up everything in six months.

The Buu saga was initially expected to last only half a year or so, but ended up going for two full years, making it the longest arc in the manga.

After this pattern with Freeza and Cell, Toriyama seemed to grow tired of this type of storytelling, which is why the Buu saga took on a more comedic tone.

We probably knew this, but the Buu saga was more lighthearted as a result of Toriyama getting tired of the story's serious tone up to that point.

Toriyama and the editors decided to remove narrative complications. This was probably the best choice to conclude the series in, a freer and more enjoyable way.

I can understand this logic, as the Buu arc feels like a far more fitting end than Cell ever did. It felt like the story was coming full circle.

Freeza was actually a forced character, one that Toriyama hadn't particularly wanted to create, but was made to include.

Freeza, one of Dragon Ball's greatest characters, wasn't someone Toriyama wanted to create, but was rather a requirement from the editorial office. If this isn't proof of how important Toriyama's editors were to DB's success, I don't know what is.

During the great ape transformation, popularity polls plummeted.

The Battle with Vegeta, which many consider to be the best of the franchise, was actually not very popular in Japan during his great ape fight.

The revelation that Goku was a Saiyan wasn't the result of a plan, but a narrative necessity. When the story hit a roadblock, Toriyama found a solution.

The concept of Goku being an alien was basically the result of them not knowing what else to do on earth following the fight with Piccolo.

There was no long term planning, Toriyama and the editors would decide on the general direction and then develop the story week by week.

Another well known fact; Toriyama only knew the general direction of an arc, not the actual details.

Toriyama's goal wasn't to build a perfectly structured plot, but to surprise and entertain.

Toriyama proved that not everything needs to be One Piece or Attack on Titan complicated, things can still be enjoyable despite their simplicity.

The uncertainty was the real struggle for the editors, as Toriyama's process was completely instinctive and unpredictable.

Unlike other authors who plan out every detail of the story, Toriyama just made it up as he went along. That's impressive considering he did it continuously for 10 years.

Even though Dragon Ball wasn't the manga he dreamed of drawing, he gave it his all to make it the best it could be.

This is the most important quote here in my opinion. DB was not a dream project of his the same way One Piece is for Oda. However, he still did everything in his power to ensure that every arc, including the Buu arc, was the best it could possibly be.

About 10 years ago, when the idea of doing something new with Dragon Ball was proposed, Toriyama responded with little enthusiasm, saying he didn't find it fun anymore. The motivation that had driven him in the past was no longer there. During the Buu saga, that creative spark was still evident.

Super's fans are going to need a senzu bean for this one. This explains so much about Super's lack of creativity and quality compared to before. You can tell from nearly every story we've gotten that something is off about the writing. This also proves that Toriyama's involvement with the Battle of Gods movie from 2013 was expected to be a one and done deal, he never intended on that movie being the start of a full revival for the series. This brings me to the following quote from Toriyama following Daima's announcement:

I came up with the story and settings, as well as a lot of the designs. I’m actually putting a lot more into this than usual!

I find it funny that the concept of turning Goku into a kid from "it's not canon" GT is what got Toriyama excited about Dragon Ball again since 2011 when he wrote Battle of Gods.

[jjgp1112]

This entire thread is pure gold. I especially love the part about Toriyama sending nearly finished drafts for the chapters, with his editors typically just approving them. This finally debunks the silly theory that Toriyama was carried by his editors. Most of the time, he did exactly what he wanted.
My guess is that Toriyama wanted to finish Dragon Ball at several points. By the Cell saga, he must have been exhausted. For 15 years, he worked on two weekly mangas, numerous one-shots, video games, and movies. The man was a hard worker. Despite all of this, he still managed to stretch the Boo saga from a few weeks to more than two years...

The drafts part is consistent with my favorite Toriyama interview tidbit, where he said he didnt even actually start working on chapters until 2 days before the deadline and as a result, he never actually storyboards chapters - he instead had an extremely polished rough draft, which would pleasantly surprise Toei because he would fax his roguh drafts to them to serve as a basis for the episode storyboards and he gave them way more to work with than a typical mandala. Nakaysuru in particular said "Those were WAY too polished to be storyboards! That explains it!"

[BernardoCairo]

The Buu saga was initially expected to last only half a year or so, but ended up going for two full years, making it the longest arc in the manga.

I wonder what exactly motivated him to continue. The Boo Arc ended up being three times longer than he originally planned. Perhaps he simply felt at home writing a more gag-oriented story.

I can understand this logic, as the Buu arc feels like a far more fitting end than Cell ever did. It felt like the story was coming full circle.

I couldn't imagine a better ending. The Genkidama finish was perfect for both Goku and Vegeta's characters.

Freeza, one of Dragon Ball's greatest characters, wasn't someone Toriyama wanted to create, but was rather a requirement from the editorial office. If this isn't proof of how important Toriyama's editors were to DB's success, I don't know what is.

I like how they guided him without creating the plot points themselves. The creative process remained the author's responsibility, even though he occasionally received directions. He still had fun with his work.

The concept of Goku being an alien was basically the result of them not knowing what else to do on earth following the fight with Piccolo.

What's funny is that he could have lied and used that Oolong line about Goku being an alien as proof that he had planned everything from the start, but he never did. He had no problem admitting he took a more freeform approach to writing.

I find it funny that the concept of turning Goku into a kid from "it's not canon" GT is what got Toriyama excited about Dragon Ball again since 2011 when he wrote Battle of Gods.

Something tells me he had a lot of fun with Super Hero as well...

The drafts part is consistent with my favorite Toriyama interview tidbit, where he said he didnt even actually start working on chapters until 2 days before the deadline and as a result, he never actually storyboards chapters - he instead had an extremely polished rough draft

What's funny is that, if I'm not mistaken, he did this because he would often spend days thinking about what would come next, only to end up with nothing

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I like how they guided him without creating the plot points themselves. The creative process remained the author's responsibility, even though he occasionally received directions. He still had fun with his work.

Sitting besides every great manga author is an equally great editor. It's such a shame that fans view editors in a negative light, as it's their position of bouncing ideas around with an author that ultimately results in the best stories.

[jjgp1112]

The drafts part is consistent with my favorite Toriyama interview tidbit, where he said he didnt even actually start working on chapters until 2 days before the deadline and as a result, he never actually storyboards chapters - he instead had an extremely polished rough draft

What's funny is that, if I'm not mistaken, he did this because he would often spend days thinking about what would come next, only to end up with nothing

Nah it was actually the opposite lol - he said after Dr. Slump's brutal schedule, he pretty much optimized Dragon Ball to give himself more free time and so in the 5 days before working on the chapters he did absolutely nothing, just sat in his room building toy models and shit The only times he would work throughout the entire week was when he was concepting new characters, transformations, and story arcs.

[Goten_jr]

Explains a lot I read the Manga last Year from Start to Finish the Drop off in Quality between King Piccolo - Cell arc to The Buu arc is huge.

[Vhanos]

Gotta love capitalism. It always made the most sense to me that he wanted to (read "wanted to," not "intended to" or "did") end things at Saiyans or Namek. Because after that, the story started to deteriorate. Of course, there will be people here that will disagree when exactly the story started to deteriorate, some will even disagree with the notion the story was deteriorating at all, but there seems to be more than enough indication that Toriyama was extra done with Dragon Ball by Cell and Boo.

Reading over the Twitter thread, Toriyama feeling no excitement or inspiration whatsoever for the revival era also rings true to me. No wonder Super and Daima turned out the way they did. Time can only tell if another writer can save this franchise. Then again, there's already quite a number of people out there going "Dragon Ball died with Toriyama," so yeah.

He looked "extra done" because had worked on the series a lot by that point. He was weary with the load of work he had to do. Toriyama didn't say he wanted to end the series at certain points like people or rumors say/suggest. But that he didn't want to be the one doing the things he did and had to go through all the time. That's the part people miss on or information they didn't get. He didn't have a Toyotaro during that time when he wrapped things up in the Buu series. He didn't mind if others wanted to continue and do the series. It's why GT was given it's run. We saw how that turned out. There's a lot of word and rumor over the years. The ones that get regurgitated the most are what gets known.

I'm not buying the "Toriyama feeling no exicitement or inspiration" claim. That's just your view. Twitter has a bunch of posers. Super and Daima have done a lot to restore the franchise or save it. Especially after the damage made to the franchise that GT left behind. I've seen other people say the same things you say over the years. For something that deteriorated, it's managing to keep interest. A new series can come out, it could be good, and people will just hate on it for whatever reason. They will hate on it no matter what the writers do. The franchise will go on as long as there is interest, whether you like it or not.

[Goe]

Interesting fact. I have read long time ago about Toriyama wanted to end at Freezer saga, but I discovered it was an urband legend some time ago. However, I don't remember reading about he wanted end at Cell saga. But now is obviously true.

But is cool that he didn't. I never liked Cell's saga end because Vegeta decided to not fight anymore and that is really dissapointing. Fortunately in Bu saga we have the best Vegeta: I love Majin Vegeta because is evil at a hero at the same time, that is not common in DB universe… but I also love the fact that Vegeta 100% redeemed at the end of this saga.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm not buying the "Toriyama feeling no exicitement or inspiration" claim. That's just your view.

That's words that came out of his mouth.

About ten years ago, when the idea of doing something new with Dragon Ball was proposed, Toriyama responded with little enthusiasm, saying he didn't find it fun anymore. He didn't feel obligated to continue, but the motivation that had driven him in the past was no longer there. Even in a tribute interview on the radio, he admitted that he no longer felt the same excitement as before. Sure, he still enjoyed working with certain characters, but his engagement wasn't what it used to be.

[Zephyr]

I'm not buying the "Toriyama feeling no exicitement or inspiration" claim. That's just your view.

That's words that came out of his mouth.

About ten years ago, when the idea of doing something new with Dragon Ball was proposed, Toriyama responded with little enthusiasm, saying he didn't find it fun anymore. He didn't feel obligated to continue, but the motivation that had driven him in the past was no longer there. Even in a tribute interview on the radio, he admitted that he no longer felt the same excitement as before. Sure, he still enjoyed working with certain characters, but his engagement wasn't what it used to be.

I mean sorta. That's from a summary of someone's translation of a conversation between his editors recounting words from Toriyama's mouth. Many more steps removed than your triple emphasis would have one believe.

Do you know how good of a translation (or summary) the Twitter thread actually provides? I sure don't! I'm personally waiting on a Kanzenshuu translation (or one by someone with similar credentials) before I start engaging in angry discourse about it, because who knows how many small details might be gotten wrong (or neglected entirely).

[AliTheZombie13]

Do you know how good of a translation (or summary) the Twitter thread actually provides? I sure don't! I'm personally waiting on a Kanzenshuu translation (or one by someone with similar credentials) before I start engaging in angry discourse about it, because who knows how many small details might be gotten wrong (or neglected entirely).

Feels pretty consistent with other interviews available on Kanzenshuu itself where Toriyama expresses being unsatisfied with DB Evolution and DB Super's quality, as well as his final letter where he admits he's had way more fun with Daima than any of the other projects. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy.

[jjgp1112]

Gotta love capitalism. It always made the most sense to me that he wanted to (read "wanted to," not "intended to" or "did") end things at Saiyans or Namek. Because after that, the story started to deteriorate. Of course, there will be people here that will disagree when exactly the story started to deteriorate, some will even disagree with the notion the story was deteriorating at all, but there seems to be more than enough indication that Toriyama was extra done with Dragon Ball by Cell and Boo.

Reading over the Twitter thread, Toriyama feeling no excitement or inspiration whatsoever for the revival era also rings true to me. No wonder Super and Daima turned out the way they did. Time can only tell if another writer can save this franchise. Then again, there's already quite a number of people out there going "Dragon Ball died with Toriyama," so yeah.

He looked "extra done" because had worked on the series a lot by that point. He was weary with the load of work he had to do. Toriyama didn't say he wanted to end the series at certain points like people or rumors say/suggest. But that he didn't want to be the one doing the things he did and had to go through all the time. That's the part people miss on or information they didn't get. He didn't have a Toyotaro during that time when he wrapped things up in the Buu series. He didn't mind if others wanted to continue and do the series. It's why GT was given it's run. We saw how that turned out. There's a lot of word and rumor over the years. The ones that get regurgitated the most are what gets known.

I'm not buying the "Toriyama feeling no exicitement or inspiration" claim. That's just your view. Twitter has a bunch of posers. Super and Daima have done a lot to restore the franchise or save it. Especially after the damage made to the franchise that GT left behind. I've seen other people say the same things you say over the years. For something that deteriorated, it's managing to keep interest. A new series can come out, it could be good, and people will just hate on it for whatever reason. They will hate on it no matter what the writers do. The franchise will go on as long as there is interest, whether you like it or not.

People like to project whatever they feel about the franchise onto Toriyama lol