Official confirmation Toriyama wanted to end Dragonball at the Cell Saga

[Marco Polo]

So for a very long time, it was considered a misconception that Toriyama wanted to end DBZ at the Cell Saga. But according to this interview with editors Kazuhiko Torishima, Yu Kondo, and Fuyuto Takeda, this is actually true:

https://x.com/Venixys/status/1893760603648331782



Thoughts?

[VegettoEX]

As we recently shared on Bluesky in light of this (a couple items here bolded for emphasis):

Based on some of the answers out of the Torishima/Kondo/Takeda chat, the idea of "intended endings" has resurfaced, and there is question over when Toriyama "wanted to" vs. "intended to" end with regard to the Boo arc... which, of course, did end up actually (eventually!) being the final manga arc.

In the May 2013 issue of Nikkei Entertainment! (in conjunction with the launch of Battle of Gods), Takeda shared some of his memories from working on the series, and about this timeframe in particular. We recently shared this on one of our new FAQ pages-

The first time we met, he told me “I want to end Dragon Ball“. At the time, the series was insanely popular. Even within Jump, it was #1 in the rankings by a longshot, so that really put me in quite the pickle. (nervous laugh) However, I knew very well that Sensei was getting exhausted, so I suggested: “Draw whatever you want the most and what you think is most suitable, and then you can finish it when you are 100% satisfied with what you put out.”

We meant to add this relevant tidbit back onto the respective "Intended Endings" guide page on our site... but just hadn't gotten around to it yet, and wouldn't you know it, here we are with it being relevant again thanks to the new chat! It's ultimately not "new" information. That said...

This really goes back to the question of INTENT versus "ongoing exhaustion and what makes most sense and where we end up." Did Toriyama have a pre-planned brilliant endgame of heading toward the Boo arc specifically? No, not at all! No more so than Toriyama envisioned Freeza during Pilaf.

However, yes, we know from Takeda that he and Toriyama then specifically started and went into the next arc with pre-planned knowledge and stated intent that Toriyama definitely wanted to be done soon... and yet, it ran for another TWO WHOLE YEARS! There's a lot to take away from that raw fact!

[BernardoCairo]

This entire thread is pure gold. I especially love the part about Toriyama sending nearly finished drafts for the chapters, with his editors typically just approving them. This finally debunks the silly theory that Toriyama was carried by his editors. Most of the time, he did exactly what he wanted.
My guess is that Toriyama wanted to finish Dragon Ball at several points. By the Cell saga, he must have been exhausted. For 15 years, he worked on two weekly mangas, numerous one-shots, video games, and movies. The man was a hard worker. Despite all of this, he still managed to stretch the Boo saga from a few weeks to more than two years...

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

My guess is that Toriyama wanted to finish Dragon Ball at several points.

This is true, in fact in the anime guide Son Goku Densetsu, Toriyama said that the reason he coined the term "Dragon Ball Z" was because he planned to end the series, so that was his intention going back as far as Raditz but he continued multiple times due to editorial pressure:

Akira Toriyama wrote:

“Z” is the last letter in the alphabet, right? So, at the time I already really wanted to end the series, and so I made the title “Z” to say “Hey, this is the end!” I don’t remember saying a single thing about any energy supplement. You really can’t go by rumors (laughs).

[Peach]

This entire thread is pure gold. I especially love the part about Toriyama sending nearly finished drafts for the chapters, with his editors typically just approving them. This finally debunks the silly theory that Toriyama was carried by his editors. Most of the time, he did exactly what he wanted.
My guess is that Toriyama wanted to finish Dragon Ball at several points. By the Cell saga, he must have been exhausted. For 15 years, he worked on two weekly mangas, numerous one-shots, video games, and movies. The man was a hard worker. Despite all of this, he still managed to stretch the Boo saga from a few weeks to more than two years...

There was a video on YouTube where Toriyama talked about driving to make copies of his new issue for an editor and how he was so tired he could barely see on the road. It must have been exhausting. It wouldn't surprise me if there were multiple points he wanted to quit.

The state of the manga industry bums me out. Creators constantly exhausted for years and rushing to meet deadlines. It seems inhumane. And it's completely unnecessary for big franchises (even Dragon Ball in its prime in Japan) to carry on practices from when manga was a low budget medium. They had the money to give Toriyama a crew - writers, pencilers, inkers, colorists, letterers, background artists, cover artists, assistants. And here he was writing story, illustrating, coloring, dealing with editors, and most likely lettering.

I hope the industry learns from the struggles of Toriyama and others like him. Giving modern mangaka the flexibility, time, assistants, and crews they deserve. And monthly releases need to become standard like the rest of the world. The people matter more than the product.

[AliTheZombie13]

Gotta love capitalism. It always made the most sense to me that he wanted to (read "wanted to," not "intended to" or "did") end things at Saiyans or Namek. Because after that, the story started to deteriorate. Of course, there will be people here that will disagree when exactly the story started to deteriorate, some will even disagree with the notion the story was deteriorating at all, but there seems to be more than enough indication that Toriyama was extra done with Dragon Ball by Cell and Boo.

Reading over the Twitter thread, Toriyama feeling no excitement or inspiration whatsoever for the revival era also rings true to me. No wonder Super and Daima turned out the way they did. Time can only tell if another writer can save this franchise. Then again, there's already quite a number of people out there going "Dragon Ball died with Toriyama," so yeah.

[Chuquita]

Ending it at Cell. I can see it, but I don't think I'd be satisfied with it, leaving Goku dead.

Honestly, if we finish earlier, I'd prefer ending it right after Freeza's defeated. Have Goku succeed in killing Freeza. Goku then returns to Earth to meet up with and surprise his family and friends; the end. I really enjoy the way the saiyan and Freeza arcs connect to each other. The Cell arc is convoluted and less natural in a way Freeza was not, imo. Freeza's arc felt more organic to me.

Speaking more out of universe, I've read about how little sleep Toriyama was getting and I can't even imagine driving a car under those conditions. Your reaction time slows so much.

[Hellspawn28]

I think people wanted Cell saga to be the ending point because Goku dies, Gohan saves the Day and Future Trunks finally brings peace to his timeline. Honestly, I'm happy how things are with the manga. I don't know why people feel like the series needs end at this point of the manga so badly.

[BernardoCairo]

It wouldn't surprise me if there were multiple points he wanted to quit.

He may have wanted it, but he never actually did it. That impresses me. Even after Namek, he came up with the Androids arc, which was both fun and had a strong story. He designed all the villains, created the storylines, and introduced the concept of surpassing Super Saiyajin, which turned out great. Then he wrote the Boo arc and, once again, came up with many ideas that are still staples of the series to this day.
Toriyama was truly built differently. I hope he had a very enjoyable retirement before passing away. He definitely deserved it.

No wonder Super and Daima turned out the way they did.

That was in reference to ten years ago. He himself mentioned how excited he was for Daima and how much work he put into it. People close to him have backed that up as well. He just needed the right project to reignite his passion. In fact, something tells me he had fun with Super Hero too, though that’s more of a guess...

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The Cell arc was by no means the first, second, or even third time Toriyama wanted to walk away from the franchise. Kanzenshuu's Intended Ending section documents multiple times the franchise could've ended. The first was potentially after the Pilaf arc due to the story's lack in popularity. The second was after the Baba mini tournament, but Toriyama said it was too popular to end there. The third was after King Piccolo if Jump wouldn't let Goku grow up. The fourth was after the Saiyan arc, as Toriyama said he picked "Z" for the anime to indicate it was coming to an end. Toriyama's first editor said the story ending after Namek would've been a good idea. Now this new piece of info regarding Cell. Although not stated anywhere, I'd bet that the tidbit about the demon realm mentioned very early on in the Buu arc was done just in case he had to draw one more arc (which we thankfully got in Daima).

If anyone's read the manga in one go, you'd instantly tell something was off with the Buu arc. The art was far weaker than the previous arcs, the fights were far shorter, & the writing was all over the place, specifically between Goku's departure to the afterlife and his return to earth. The anime's honestly what carried that arc, and is why many fans like it as much as they do. The Buu arc was a great example of the anime's staff stepping in to make up for the author's exhaustion. Unlike the other points in the series where Toriyama considered ending the story, I think everyone at Jump realized, based on the quality of the Buu arc, that Toriyama was indeed reaching the end of his capabilities as a weekly manga artist, thus allowed the series to finally end

Does this mean there's a line clearly separating Dragon Ball as Toriyama wanted it and then Dragon Ball as Toriyama was obligated to draw ? No, because as we can see, there wasn't just one place Toriyama thought about ending the series. We can't say that everything after Cell wasn't really a story Toriyama wanted to tell, when there are other points in time in which he wanted things to wrap up as well. What we can take away from this is that Toriyama would not have drawn Dragon Ball as long as he did if he had an exclusive say in the matter, as his editors and sales clearly played a role in him working on it longer than he intended. With that said, I'm glad that he continued for as long as he did, because despite the flaws that started showing up later on, I believe each and every arc was needed to tell DB's story to its fullest.

[BernardoCairo]

Although not stated anywhere, I'd bet that the tidbit about the demon realm mentioned very early on in the Buu arc was done just in case he had to draw one more arc (which we thankfully got in Daima).

I'm convinced that if the story had continued, we would have explored the Demon Realm next. The hints were so obvious, yet it took 30 years for us to finally see it

The anime's honestly what carried that arc, and is why many fans like it as much as they do.

I have to say, though, the arc's reputation for being too long and a "mess" mainly comes from the anime. The manga, on the other hand, has much better pacing and is packed with jokes, almost like a parody of Dragon Ball. I'm not claiming one is better than the other, just pointing this out.

With that said, I'm glad that he continued for as long as he did, because despite the flaws that started showing up later on, I believe each and every arc was needed to tell DB's story to its fullest.

I 100% agree. I'm just grateful for what we got and the people who worked on the series.

[coola]

Speaking more out of universe, I've read about how little sleep Toriyama was getting and I can't even imagine driving a car under those conditions. Your reaction time slows so much.

People in Japan can sleep at train standing, so maybe it was enough for Toriyama to take nap during traffic lights

I also wonder, how much meddling at beginning of Cyborgs saga hit Toriyama and how much it affected Majin Buu saga (Get rid of old geezer, what? You made brats main villains instead?)

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This is from an interview conducted back in 2014:

"How did you feel as you were drawing the final portions of the series?"

"The Artificial Human and Cell story arc was pretty rough… I guess you could say I did all I could with Freeza, so I was burned out, and figured I couldn’t pull off a better battle than that. I thought, “Do I really have to keep going?” Even when Cell ended, it still didn’t feel like it could end. So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.”"

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

The bold part is interesting when looked at alongside this new piece of information, because Toriyama himself clearly says that he didn't feel like it was right to end it just yet. He may have indeed considered ending it after Cell, just as he did many places before that, but both he and the editorial team came to the conclusion that the Cell arc wasn't the right fit for a conclusion.

[MasenkoHA]

Was "I named the second anime Dragon Ball Z because Z is the last letter of the alphabet and I thought I'd be ending the manga soon" not confirmation enough Toriyama had been looking to end Dragon Ball soon after the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament and soon after just turned into 7 years later?

I think Freeza, Cell, and Boo all worked as "endings" for a reason (to varying degrees of success, I still maintain the Cell saga sucks ass as an ending when strictly looking at the manga and not necessarily the Z anime)

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Here's another interesting quote form Toriyama:

Before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was.

Toriyama wasn't just trying to wrap up DB because he was tired of working, although that's undoubtedly a lot of it, he was struggling to come up with stronger characters and with powering up Goku in a believable way. Despite really liking the Buu arc, everyone involved with the manga from Toriyama to the editorial office made the right decision to end it there. It's better to end a story when it's on top and you're writing it with passion, instead of letting everything go to hell. The Buu arc wrapped up the last character arc (Vegeta's), and even gave Mr. Satan one, who was introduced as a one off character during the Cell games according to Toriyama. Not everyone can be Oda and One Piece where they go on forever (I'm loving Zao by the way), so it's best to wrap things up when the time feels right.

[JulieYBM]

Writers tend to want to end stories before they begin writing them, so this...just is not a surprise? The man was working sixteen hour days, for goodness' sake. Hell, he was drawing the series through his fortieth birthday, of course he wanted to end the series.

I don't really get the whole, "I need to justify not liking a story arc because Toriyama wanted to quit" thing that a lot of vocal fans seem to do. Like, damn, girl, you try breaking your back for twenty years drawing comics and then see if you want to keep going with the same comic you've been drawing since the mid-1980s lol.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Writers tend to want to end stories before they begin writing them, so this...just is not a surprise? The man was working sixteen hour days, for goodness' sake. Hell, he was drawing the series through his fortieth birthday, of course he wanted to end the series. Like, damn, girl, you try breaking your back for twenty years drawing comics and then see if you want to keep going with the same comic you've been drawing since the mid-1980s lol.

Fans seem to not understand that Toriyama wanting to end the series earlier than he did wasn't due to some artistic vision of (insert arc here) being the perfect ending spot, he was imply overworked. Toriyama never once said that he wanted to end at a specific arc because it was the right thing for the story, it was more often than not related to his physical and likely mental health.

[Mr Baggins]

Between this and the recent Iyoku/Daima stuff, it's kinda wild that so many of these interviews came flooding in nearly at once.

Huge thanks to the Kanzenshuu crew for having it all on their radar to be fully translated at some point.

[MuscleRobo]

The most shocking thing to me was learning that Dragon Ball was "carrying" the magazine in the mid 90's. There's manga magazines that are kept afloat by a single popular manga, Kindai Mahjong and Akagi come to mind, but I thought the popularity of Slam Dunk, Yu Yu Hakusho and others were just as significant. Jump had its largest drop in circulation when Slam Dunk ended, not Dragon Ball! If you look at this historical ranking website though it seems like Slam Dunk was number 2 to Dragon Ball's Number 1 every year https://www.jajanken.net/en/history. This is kind of neat to track placements though https://www.jajanken.net/en/sakuhins/QvL0By28NV/

[BernardoCairo]

He may have indeed considered ending it after Cell, just as he did many places before that, but both he and the editorial team came to the conclusion that the Cell arc wasn't the right fit for a conclusion.

I mean, he wanted to end things at Cell for personal reasons, but didn’t think it was the right place to wrap up the series, so he kept going... for two more years. It's crazy. He must've had a lot more fun with the Boo arc. I really like how he prioritized his own fun over public pressure. It's something we don’t see much today.

Two weekly mangas, one-shots, videogames, promotional art, movies (and other requests from the anime staff)... I wonder how how that's physically possible. He also had two kids...