Strongest Villian

[James R. Cadwell]

I think we strayed from the point anyway. Either one is definately weaker than Brolly or Bojack right?

Definitely.

[TGDweezl]

I'd like to explain myself. *ahem*

I feel that Cell is stronger than Hildegarn because Cell was comprise of Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc. and had a ton of potential to go further with it had he lived. I mean he does hit that bulky from of SSJ just like Vegeta, Goku, and Future Trunks did. Hildegarn was just a giant magically contained demon that gave the Z fighters (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Gotenks) some trouble.

As for Frieza being stronger than Bojack and crew as well as Majin Vegeta: As we saw with Cooler there were stages beyond Frieza's final form that Cooler managed to unlock. If Frieza hadn't slacked off so much and actually trained or even did some ACTUAL fighting of some sorts he would've unlocked that potential and in which case would've schooled even Goku BP aside.

Yes, I know. Lots of "would've" but that's how I see them. I'm looking at the villain but also looking past them and theorizing the possibilites they could've achieved had they used the time they had alive properly.

[Sun_Wukong]

My theory, #1 strongest, #11 weakest

1)Kid Buu
2)Hildegarn
3)"Perfect" Janemba
------Majin Vejiita " "
4)Perfect Cell
------Bojack would fit somewhere inbetween
5)Brolly
6)17 and 18
------Cyborg Coola" "
7)Cyborg #20
8)Cyborg Freeza
9)Cyborg #19
10)beefed-up Garlic Jr.
11)Turles/Radditz/King Piccolo (all relatively the same in strength)

[Dayspring]

Actually it goes down in terms of strength for your #11:

Turles has a PL of well over 30,000, and well over 300,000 after eating the fruit of the tree of might.

Radditz has a PL of 1,200. HUGE difference.

Piccolo Daimao was much weaker than Ma Junior Piccolo from the 23rd budoukai. If a Goku who is equal to Piccolo Daimao is exceptionally weaker than Radditz after 8 years of training and 2 near-death battles, obviously Radditz is much much stronger than Piccolo Daimao.

[B-kun]

If a Goku who is equal to Piccolo Daimao is exceptionally weaker than Radditz after 8 years of training and 2 near-death battles, obviously Radditz is much much stronger than Piccolo Daimao.

*muses* That whole battle reminded me strangely of a poorly thought out RPG. You spend most of the time barely training, then you find this OMG CRAZY BOSS, and end up getting by with sheer luck alone. Of course, then you continue to the next boss and get yo' poor ass blasted,

[Xyex]

And I think 19 and 20 were weaker than Freeza. Namek Freeza was 12,000,000 and there's no way Piccolo went from around 2,000,000 to over 12,000,000 in about four years.

Why? Power increases from training appear to be proportional. If Piccolo can triple his power in a single year, he should be able to manage something a lot more impressive in four years.

Trunks could kill both Freeza and King Cold with a single attack. As Dayspring pointed out, Goku couldn't manage to finish #19 in the time before he was severely affected by his illness, so #19 must be stronger than Freeza.

Personally, I'd double the power level each time it's shown that one character significantly outclasses the other. So:

--Arrival of Trunks--
Freeza: ~12,000,000.
King Cold: ~12,000,000.
Super Saiya-jin Trunks: ~24,000,000. (kills Freeza and Cold with one blow.)
Super Saiya-jin Goku: ~48,000,000. (effortlessly blocks blows of the same strength.)

--Early Cell Saga--
Super Saiya-jin Goku: At least 48,000,000.
Artificial Human #19: At least the equivalent of 24,000,000. (doesn't get immediately killed by Goku.)

I'll agree that the PL's of the SSJ's do, they seem to have an exponential increase, but then that's way their transformatio works. I won't believe, however, that Piccolo could do that. Granted, Nameks seem to be even better designed for fighting than Saiya-jins, but that's still tretching it IMO.

As for Android 19 Vs. Goku, the heart Virus wouldn't have just 'kicked in' at some point. It would have been affecting him from the start of the battle slowly wearing him down. I've no doubt that he felt the strain from the second the battle began and that it affected his fightig ability. Then there's the fact he fired that big ass Kamehameha at 19 which probably doubled the Androids PL, if not more.

[James R. Cadwell]

I'll agree that the PL's of the SSJ's do, they seem to have an exponential increase, but then that's way their transformatio works. I won't believe, however, that Piccolo could do that. Granted, Nameks seem to be even better designed for fighting than Saiya-jins, but that's still tretching it IMO.

Piccolo has a power level of 408 during the fight with Radditz. A year later, his scouter reading without powering up is slightly over 1200. He must have been even stronger than Nappa after training on Kaio-sama's world, since he thought he had a chance against Freeza. This shows that Piccolo can definitely triple his power in a single year under "normal" training conditions, and can probably do something similar in a few days under 10G. I'd say a power level equivalent to Freeza's would be somewhat conservative considering Piccolo's ability to proportionately increase his strength.

As for Android 19 Vs. Goku, the heart Virus wouldn't have just 'kicked in' at some point. It would have been affecting him from the start of the battle slowly wearing him down. I've no doubt that he felt the strain from the second the battle began and that it affected his fightig ability. Then there's the fact he fired that big ass Kamehameha at 19 which probably doubled the Androids PL, if not more.

I agree that Goku was probably being affected from the beginning of the fight with #19 -- but, I don't think that his power had been dramatically decreased by that point. He would need to be weaker than Freeza on Namek to be unable to instantly kill someone with strength equivalent to 5,000,000 or so.

Super Saiya-jin Goku: ???

Super Saiya-jin Trunks: ??? (Can't affect Goku with the same attack that killed Freeza)

Freeza: 12,000,000. (Killed with one blow by Trunks)

Sick Goku (Cell Saga): Less than 12,000,000.

Goku (Kaioken x 20): 6,000,000. (Easily beaten by Freeza)

Artificial Human #19: 5,000,000.

Vegeta (Namek): Greater than 1,000,000. (Killed effortlessly by Freeza)

I don't see how Goku's power could have been affected that much in the first few moments of his fight with #19. Either #19 was stronger than Freeza, or Goku only had a small fraction of the power that SSJ Trunks did.

[Neon Z]

Piccolo has a power level of 408 during the fight with Radditz. A year later, his scouter reading without powering up is slightly over 1200. He must have been even stronger than Nappa after training on Kaio-sama's world, since he thought he had a chance against Freeza. This shows that Piccolo can definitely triple his power in a single year under "normal" training conditions, and can probably do something similar in a few days under 10G. I'd say a power level equivalent to Freeza's would be somewhat conservative considering Piccolo's ability to proportionately increase his strength.

If I recall correctly, after training with kaio, Tenshinhan and Yamcha also thought that they had a chance against Freeza... Wouldn't that point out the they were just overrating their increases?

[James R. Cadwell]

If I recall correctly, after training with kaio, Tenshinhan and Yamcha also thought that they had a chance against Freeza... Wouldn't that point out the they were just overrating their increases?

They would have to be stronger than Nappa if they felt it was possible to fight Freeza. Probably not stronger than Vegeta or Ginyu, but at least stronger than the most powerful person they had fought on Earth. Otherwise their statements would make no sense -- did they think Freeza was weaker than Nappa?

I figured their power was something like this:

--On Earth--
Nappa: ~10,000
Piccolo: ~1,500
Tenshinhan: ~1,500
Yamucha: ~1,500

--As the fight with Freeza took place--
Piccolo: ~10,000
Tenshinhan: ~10,000
Yamucha: ~10,000

They might have been expecting Freeza to be about as strong as Vegeta was on Earth.

[Dayspring]

I disagree. Using your logic they'd have to be stronger than Vegeta on Earth, no (who was 16,000-18,000 pre-max)?

I agree with your Tenshinhan +Yamcha for on Earth, but since Piccolo had no probs killing a Saibaman I'd tend to lean more towards the PL given by the daizenhuu.

Earth:
Tenshinhan: ~1,500
Yamcha: ~1,200
Piccolo: 3,500

Freeza:
Tenshinhan: ~20,000
Yamcha: ~18,000
Piccolo: ~25,000

[James R. Cadwell]

I disagree. Using your logic they'd have to be stronger than Vegeta on Earth, no (who was 16,000-18,000 pre-max)?

True. I used Nappa as an example to be conservative, and because Tenshinhan and Piccolo actually fought him directly. They were probably most familiar with his strength and abilities. I suppose you could just as easily swap full-power Nappa with idle Vegeta. It's only a difference of a few thousand.

I agree with your Tenshinhan +Yamcha for on Earth, but since Piccolo had no probs killing a Saibaman I'd tend to lean more towards the PL given by the daizenhuu.

Earth:
Tenshinhan: ~1,500
Yamcha: ~1,200
Piccolo: 3,500

Eh, I wasn't saying that Piccolo was definitely only 1500. I just rounded all of their powers off to that number so I wouldn't have to look them up.

Freeza:
Tenshinhan: ~20,000
Yamcha: ~18,000
Piccolo: ~25,000

You could probably lower that estimate a bit without making it logically inconsistant with the statements made in the series -- maybe each between 14,000 and 18,000. They'd still feel powerful enough to take on someone a little stronger than Vegeta was on Earth. (before powering-up)

[Sun_Wukong]

Piccolo Daimao was much weaker than Ma Junior Piccolo from the 23rd budoukai. If a Goku who is equal to Piccolo Daimao is exceptionally weaker than Radditz after 8 years of training and 2 near-death battles, obviously Radditz is much much stronger than Piccolo Daimao.

Ah I didnt realize that. Its never really clear how strong Goku had gotten over the three years before he fought Ma Junior. How much stronger was Ma Junior than his father? I know that Turles had a power increase due to that fruit, but I'm assuming otherwise, he was roughly as strong as Radditz. Radditz was the weakest of the "three elite" so I'm assuming he could be the strongest of the non elite. Turles may have not been elite, but he was pretty damn strong.

[Neon Z]

Ah I didnt realize that. Its never really clear how strong Goku had gotten over the three years before he fought Ma Junior.

It is. Well... at least, his speed. Tenshinhan mentions that Goku(wearing heavy clothes)'s speed hadn't changed from three years ago.

[Dayspring]

How much stronger was Ma Junior than his father?

Exceptionally. Goku was equal to Piccolo Daimao when they fought, and after three years of training, where he learned to hone his spirit for the first time as well, he's only about equal to Ma Junior Piccolo. Now add 5 more years of training for when Goku + Ma Junior P fought Radditz. In that battle, Radditz completely overpowered them. There's no way that Radditz can be at only the same level as Piccolo Daimao. It just defies logic!

As for Taresu, there's no way he's at the same level as Piccolo Daimao because his PL is over 30,000 (it's stated in the movie that Goku had a PL reaching over 30,000 pre-kaiokens, and Taresu was still dodging ALL his attacks before eating the fruit). Since it's also stated in the manga AND anime that Radditz had a PL of 1,200, you can't compare Radditz and Taresu either.

In short:
Piccolo Daimao's PL = 260 if you agree with daizenshuu, or "waaaay under 408 (Ma Junior's PL vs Radditz)" if you only agree with info taken from the manga/anime.

Radditz had a PL of 1,200

Taresu had a PL of 30,000+

Look at those PLs! There's NO way you can compare anybody to anybody else!

[oponok]

i don think it matterz cuz boronks i s strongre then all of them cuz in dbaf he life fightz super siayanjinn 8 goku but goku loses so he hsa to fuze with Vajiita and gose super Siayanjine 19 Gogtea but lozes so then he fuzes wit h trukns adn goten with the potarru earings so he geoes super siayanman level 86 adn then becumse SUPEr saiyangin lvel 40,016 gogetatrunksten cuz boronks is super SAIYing level 40,015 and then gogetatenksten uses the "Kamehame-bgi bang-burning attacks-ha" and boronks asks how thats any diferent from any of there regular ki blasts because they all do the same thing so whats the point in combining them and gogetatrunkten says he doesn't know adn then kills him

So that's my glorious input.

[Dayspring]

What did that have to with anything?

[Neon Z]

Exceptionally. Goku was equal to Piccolo Daimao when they fought

Goku dominated that fight in the manga. Piccolo just got a lucky hit.

[Dayspring]

But Piccolo wasn't fighting full strength because he refused to believe a human could equal him. Once he was at max power they were on equal terms. Even if you're right, you just further proved my point since Radditz completely dominated Goku AND Piccolo, and 8 years went by between then and battle vs Piccolo Daimao.