Freeza and Cooler's transformations

[Teclo]

Makes enough sense. So Cold probably could have transformed, but he wouldn't have been any stronger than Freeza, anyway.

Well I was actually going for the angle that Cold only has two forms. In the way that Coola has 5 which means, as per one theory, that he is so powerful he needs 5 to safely "seal away" his power, Cold isn't so hot so he only needs 2. So he could presumably change form to something that looks like Freeza's first form if he so desired but his maximum power form is the one we see him in; the one that appears to be form 2.

I'd personally imagine that if Cold got really strong via training or other means, he'd start to resembles Freeza's 3rd form and that would become his new maximum power form. He could still go down to forms 2 and 1 if he so desired in order to hold back his power, as was explained by Freeza when he mentions why he has different transformations. This whole thing would have some nice evidence to back it up if we ever saw Coola's forms 1 to 3 because then we could see if they were as similar to Freeza's forms as his 4th one is.

[Kaboom]

Makes enough sense. So Cold probably could have transformed, but he wouldn't have been any stronger than Freeza, anyway.

Well I was actually going for the angle that Cold only has two forms. In the way that Coola has 5 which means, as per one theory, that he is so powerful he needs 5 to safely "seal away" his power, Cold isn't so hot so he only needs 2. So he could presumably change form to something that looks like Freeza's first form if he so desired but his maximum power form is the one we see him in; the one that appears to be form 2.

But Coola's forms aren't anything like the other forms Freeza displayed. Freeza's forms held back his power, and his fourth was his natural state. He said so himself. Coola's extra form was something completely different. It was a booster to his natural form, rather than a restrictive form. It looked nothing like the previous forms he'd displayed.

[Teclo]

Makes enough sense. So Cold probably could have transformed, but he wouldn't have been any stronger than Freeza, anyway.

Well I was actually going for the angle that Cold only has two forms. In the way that Coola has 5 which means, as per one theory, that he is so powerful he needs 5 to safely "seal away" his power, Cold isn't so hot so he only needs 2. So he could presumably change form to something that looks like Freeza's first form if he so desired but his maximum power form is the one we see him in; the one that appears to be form 2.

But Coola's forms aren't anything like the other forms Freeza displayed. Freeza's forms held back his power, and his fourth was his natural state. He said so himself. Coola's extra form was something completely different. It was a booster to his natural form, rather than a restrictive form. It looked nothing like the previous forms he'd displayed.

But couldn't it have been the case that in the same way we first see Freeza in form 1 and he eventually unleashes his true self, Coola was also just appearing in a weaker form and then unleashing his true self as form 5?

[Kaboom]

But couldn't it have been the case that in the same way we first see Freeza in form 1 and he eventually unleashes his true self, Coola was also just appearing in a weaker form and then unleashing his true self as form 5?

Not really. As Onikage provided the lines from both versions of the movie earlier:

Coola: "I am able to transform myself one more time than my brother."

Cooler: "As you know, I'm in the third transformed state, but I found a fourth beyond it!"

Both versions get across the point that Coola has those same stages and is at the same level as his brother, the one Freeza referred to as his "true" form. Besides, it would be too weird and out of place for Coola to have the exact same appearance as his brother yet have it not be the same form/level.

By the way, what do the Daizenshuu say about Freeza and his family's transformations, anyone who has them? Was there a chart or something?

[Teclo]

I really feel like I'm not getting my point across because some of the counterpoints are "countering" things I haven't actually said.

I've said in my opinion there are five forms for Freeza's race. There may be more but we've only seen five.

A member of Freeza's race may actually have any of these five forms as their default appearance depending on their strength and ability. Thus, a pretty crappy one may permanently look like Freeza's first form - this will be his "true form" and there won't be any other transformations as there's no need to lower his power.

If this member of Freeza's race gets stronger via training etc, his form will change to that of Freeza's second form. At this point he can revert to his birth form (aka the first form) at will, in order to suppress his power.

So it follows that as he gets more and more powerful he moves through the third, fourth and fifth forms as his natural form and his full power form. At any point he may return to the weaker forms and then back to his full power form as the situation requires. If he had been born as a stronger person he may have already looked like Freeza's fourth form and could already downscale his power to the first, second and third forms. He could aspire to reaching the fifth form by training or other means.

This would take into account Freeza's explanation of transformations, it would explain why King Cold looks like Freeza's second form, why Coola initially looks like Freeza's fourth form and would also allow Coola's fifth and final form to be an "additional transformation" that doesn't contradict what Freeza originally said about different forms and would explain why Freeza is jealous of this fifth form. In this sense, Freeza's "max power mode" would be the equivalent of going SSJ in that it's a transformation that can't usually be held indefinitely and takes up ki to maintain. All other forms of Freeza and his kin are stable.

[Onikage725]

The problem with that is that it short changes Cold. Cold was said to be a high power in the manga, though it isn't said who is stronger. In the anime, he's said to be stronger. Even still, if as you say King Cold's form was simply indicitive of a certain power, then that would mean his power was about a million. If that were the case, I doubt the Z Senshi would have really cared. Freeza? yeah, big problem. but Cold, under your theory as I understand it, would be fully within the realm of Piccolo and Vegeta to handle. Even Gohan, if the kid was properly motivated, could pitch in.

The implication always seemed to me to be that both of them were too much to handle. Everyone was just as surprised when Cold went out like a scrub as they were with Freeza.

As for wondering why Cold wouldn't power up? If, theoretically, he has higher forms, but his second form is on par with or stronger than Freeza's fourth, he wouldn't think he'd need more. Keep in mind that we know Freeza got whupped, but Freeza thinks it was close. For a god bit of the fight, Freeza is all over Goku. He can't sense ki, so he doesn't understand that Goku wasn't weakening at the same rate as he was. He also thought his cybernetics would even the playing field, so clearly there was some overestimation of their own abilities at play.

As for why wouldn't Cold transform to fight Trunks? No time would be my guess. Imagine Goku woke up while Freeza was fighting Vegeta the first time, or Piccolo in his 2nd form. Freeza form 2 vs Goku with kaioken x10 would = swift win for Goku. Probably incinerated before he would have a chance to change. Much like how Goku could have killed Freeza at 50% of max, but chose to let him power up.

As for forms in general- we know Freeza's true form is the 4th, and that the other forms serve as power suppression. The dialogue doesn't seem to support that Freeza's natural form was once his 1st, or that the form ever existed as anything more than a form of restraint. Also, Coola seems to support the idea of the "4th" being natural. He says of his 5th the following:

Coola: You should consider this an honor. You will be the first to see my ultimate transformation, and the last!

Cooler: You should feel privileged. You'll be the first one to witness this form! First you will see, then you will die!

The reason I was asking if any confusion could be from the dub script is because a handful of things make it seem like form 4 is a transformation state (as opposed to the normal mode). He also refers to having suddenly found the form. In the japanese script he talks about showing no mercy and tearing Goku to bits, then states that he has access to one more form than his brother. No further detail is really given on it. In the english script, he says, "(Freeza) was always trying to beat me. Trying to prove that he was the best and he definitely had the edge. But then it happened. I transformed! As you know, I'm in the third transformed state, but I found a fourth beyond it!"

[Teclo]

Hmm, that's interesting and it's a good point about Cold. Well lets scrap the idea of "getting better through practice" and "accessing more forms as you get better" because I guess the bad guys in DBZ don't actually seem to practice and only get better by changing through forms they already have or adsorbing more things.

While it's true that in reality Cold didn't have time to transform, I'd actually say two things to that. One, in DBZ no one usually has time, they just take time. Freeza stood there for about half an hour changing into his final form while everyone just let him. In other words, if someone's gonna do something in DBZ, they're gonna do it. Secondly, even putting the last point aside, if Cold had time to chat with Trunks, take his sword then try to counterattack with it he surely had time to go "WARRGHH" and transform. I suppose the only thing you could say is that he didn't take Trunks seriously (or rather attributed all of his power to his sword) so didn't bother unleashing his true power but that just feels like (a) Toriyama intentionally giving Cold bad logic just to keep him in that form (or that he didn't even consider giving him different forms) or (b) us fans clutching at straws.

I mean, I actually read an interview with Toriyama in which it was said that he only invented #17 and #18 because some people he knew thought it was kinda lame for these terrible enemies to end up being a fat guy and an old man (#19 and #20) and then he only did Cell because it seemed wrong that the new terrible enemies should be "just kids". Cell's additional forms were also only done because of bad responses to his first and second forms. I quite like the "making it up as he goes along" style of it but it does mean that there's going to be a lot of silliness that can't really be explained by in-universe reasoning.

[Onikage725]

Haha yeah, that's the rub of it. Toriyama was more concerned with keeping a good flow and good action than he was with the nuts and bolts of how everything worked. Which is why we poor fans end up debating theory so often

One thing I think goes on with people powering up and being allowed to is that I think it has to do with who is stronger. For example, when Freeza was powerign through his lower forms, noone was on the field that could surpass the next form. Therefore they couldn't stop the change, as he was growing past their ability to handle. Trunks tries to stop Cell from becoming Perfect (at least in the anime, is that filler?) but he isn't strong enough. Sometimes a reason is given (like Buu letting Goku go SSJ3 or Gotenks do whatever just because he wanted a good fight), but sometimes you get that "pride buster" moment. Goku could have stopped Freeza from reaching 100%, because he was stronger than Freeza even at that full capacity. Rikum was powering up for his big finisher when Goku OHKO's him. Its rare, but it happens. And Trunks so totally owned Freeza that if Cold bent over and started glowing, he would have just blasted him before it got under way. And Cold also seemed convinced that Trunks' edge was that his sword was in some way enchanted (a "miscalculation" as Trunks puts it). He thinks if he can get it, he will not only take Trunks' advantage away but he will add its strength to his own.

Remember, Cold can't sense ki any better than Freeza. He also wasn't wearing a scouter, and his minions' scouters had been fooled anyway. Unlike Freeza, he hasn't fought a SSJ, or any of the earthlings for that matter. Let's say he is dead even with Freeza, whether that form he was in was his second, his last, or (as I've heard some suggest) his first form. If he is, at the relaxed state, as powerful as Freeza is when he's going all out, why would he ever assume he would need *more* power? Before this mess on Namek started (and disregarding movie 5 and Coola's crew), the undisputed next strongest being in the known universe was assumed to be Cpt. Ginyu, with a power level cap of... what, 120k right? If, comparing to Freeza and going by the Daizenshuu, Cold could conceivably be well over 100 mil, I dont think he was even remotely prepared for what a SSJ was capable of.

[kingvegito]

Yeah i was just watching a part of that movie on toutube.
Cooler punches ssj goku in the stomach,goku doesn't even flinch?!!

[Sun_Wukong]

My take on this without reading the other posts

1) I believe Coola was the strongest of the family. I'm thinking he could control his forms the easiest.

or..

2)Each member of the Cold family has different forms, or a different order they transform based on their power. Coola's final form is similar to Freeza's second form. His first form is similar to Freeza's final form. I'm guessing Coola could transform into his first form at will, while Freeza struggles to transform to his fourth form.

[Kaboom]

I don't get why the vast amount of crazy, complicated theories are all flying around, when the way the family's transformations work are so simple and have already been practically laid out.