Freeza and Cooler's transformations

[Teclo]

I was just listening to Podcast #8 and I heard the question about "which of Freeza's forms is the one that he was born in?" I didn't really want to put this into the Podcast #8 thread because of (a) necro-posting and (b) it's actually to do with a slightly different topic...

VegettoEX's answer is the one that I agree with, incidentally. Since Freeza said his additional forms were to reduce - kinda seal away - his power to make it easier to control, it would make no sense if his additional forms make him more powerful. If he went around in his true ("final") form then he'd be way too powerful for general, day-to-day things. It'd be like trying to knock on someone's front door in a Gundam mech. Of course, characters like Goku and Gohan can vary and suppress their power levels without transformation and are generally much better at holding back in general.

Anyway, I digress. I'm just trying to set the scene for my actual point, which is: they basically screwed up with Cooler didn't they? As I recall, one of his "unique selling points" and one of the things that makes him better than Freeza is that he has an additional transformation. Ohh! He can suppress his natural power level even further! Now that's scary. I remember that Freeza was actually jealous of his brother's additional transformation stage, which is kinda funny that he'd be jealous that his brother can make himself even weaker than he can.

So can anyone think of a way of looking at this that makes it seem less like they misunderstood the reason that Cooler and Freeza transform and more like there's some sort of actual logic going on behind it?

[Casual Matt]

My impression is that while Freeza's forms exist to suppress his power (with his final form being his true self), Coola has an additional transformation to actually make him stronger than his natural self (ie, the fourth form we see him in most of the movie).

Anyway, that's just my opinion and it boils down to both Freeza and Coola's fourth forms being their natural state, but I think it makes sense.

[VegettoEX]

My impression is that while Freeza's forms exist to suppress his power (with his final form being his true self), Coola has an additional transformation to actually make him stronger than his natural self (ie, the fourth form we see him in most of the movie).

Anyway, that's just my opinion and it boils down to both Freeza and Coola's fourth forms being their natural state, but I think it makes sense.

I'm with ya' on this one. I hate to play the "It's a movie!" card, but I think if you try to break it down any further than that, the logic of everything (what little there is, when you consider who Toriyama is) just starts to break down.

Perhaps Coola is that badass enough that he found a way to transform himself further than normal which allowed him to capture some additional power he otherwise wouldn't be privy to...?

[Dan no saisei]

I think that they got born in the 3. form but the stronger they did become the more they had to compress their power, so if the 2. form become as strong as the 3. form was before they compress their power again

King cold was not that strong, so he only had to compress it to the 2. form

So their normal maximum level is the 3. form and the 4. form is something like the Super Saiyajin, a transformation and not a decompression(and his 100% form is similar the USSJ)
And so coolers 5. form is like the SSJ2

At least that’s my theory, and it makes sence if you think about it^^

[Teclo]

What you've all said makes sense to me in different ways and what Dan said, I'd say, can be sort of altered a little to explain the whole thing quite neatly.

Theory 1
Let's say that Coola's final form (I'm going to change the way I spell his name since thinking about it, it makes more sense - it's not like I'd say "Freezer") is his true form and Freeza's final form is his true form. Now that hasn't solved anything yet... But combine in what Dan said and we could see that at first Freeza would have "invented" his third form (his HR Giger Alien-style one) because his natural form was too powerful. Then he'd have gone onto inventing form two and one as his natural forms and consequent downgrades got too powerful themselves.

The same thing would have happened to Coola; his true form (what we know as his fifth form) got too powerful and he had to downgrade, just like Freeza. However, he got so much more powerful than Freeza that he had to downgrade even further than Freeza. As such, when he allowed himself to rise to his fourth form he was still as powerful as Freeza's true, unlimited form. It's not that his fifth form was a new addition to his arsenal of forms but rather that he'd just got so much more powerful than Freeza in their respective natural forms he needed even more forms to suppress his power.

I hope that makes sense. It's basically another possibility based on Dan's idea but slightly altered - for example, I don't think that Freeza would have been born in his third form since it was the most alien and freaky of his forms.

Theory 2 (that could actually be combined with Theory 1)
We don't actually see Coola in forms one to three do we? It just strikes me that Coola and Freeza look similar in their fourth forms and Freeza most resembles King Cold in his first form.

Maybe there's an inherent appearance that Freeza's race have at certain power level intervals. If they're weak, either through actually being weak or through forcing themselves to that level, they look like King Cold/first form Freeza. If they're pretty damn strong they look like forth form Freeza and Coola and if they are super strong they look like fifth form Coola.

It'd be like if Saiyajins automatically get gold hair when they reach a certain power level rather than gaining the ability to turn into a SSJ. Later, as they gain yet more power, they automatically get long hair and lose their eyebrows rather than gaining the ability to go SSJ3. As their appearance changes they retain the ability to go back to their older forms/power levels in order to restrict their perhaps uncontrollable power. Therefore, having more forms means you've moved through more tiers of power.

[Xyex]

My thought on this has always been this: Freeza was bragging. The idea goes like this. Did he literally create his 1st through 3rd forms to supress his power? No. When he was born he had access to his 4th form already. And was, in fact, already in that form. It'd be much like if Goten or Trunks had popped out with golden hair and green eyes when they were born. So while his first form is the true original form of his race, his 4th was the state he was born in and thus his 'true' form. This allows for forms to exist beyond the 4th as well.

[Kaboom]

Perhaps Coola is that badass enough that he found a way to transform himself further than normal which allowed him to capture some additional power he otherwise wouldn't be privy to...?

I always thought that's what was implied from the get-go.

I'm with Muten Roshi and Mike on this one. There's some goofy theories flying around in this thread, but I don't see why it has to be so complicated...

Members of Freeza's race are born in their natural, true states, the one that was Freeza's "fourth" form. As they grow in power, they naturally gain those additional forms for the purpose of restricting the massive power of their natural forms.

Freeza, being REALLY powerful, ended up with three of those restricting forms. If he truly was the strongest in the family, then Kold and Coola probably had less than that (unless Coola directly said he had three as well; I've oughta check my DVD. But I'm willing to bet that Kold only had two).

Coola, however, in his genius and badassery, managed to figure out how to bulk up and transcend his natural form, resulting in the "5th" form he used in Movie 5.

Uh... bada-bing?

[Onikage725]

Freeza, being REALLY powerful, ended up with three of those restricting forms. If he truly was the strongest in the family, then Kold and Coola probably had less than that (unless Coola directly said he had three as well; I've oughta check my DVD. But I'm willing to bet that Kold only had two).

Coola: "I am able to transform myself one more time than my brother."

Cooler: "As you know, I'm in the third transformed state, but I found a fourth beyond it!"

Is it possible some of this confusion stems from subtle dub dialogue differences?

And I always just figured it was similar to an SSJ thing. We know Freeza's race can supress their power through transformation. We also know that Freeza's body physically grows in size to accomodate his full power (I'm assuming this since his 100% state seemed to be unstable). Coola just seemed to me to have grown so powerful that in order to properly contain this his body changed itself.

Basically its like the SSJ2 to your USSJ. Freeza's bulky 100% state was a step in the right direction, and Coola's unique transformation was the best final result.

[SSJmole]

Question , I would of asked in it's own thread but it's really a yes (with answer) or no question.

Did they ever name Freeza's race?



Also to add to the topic at the moment. If Freeza's race start out in his last form then what about king cold? If he could have transformed he would of against future trunks right?

[mAcChaos]

I always thought that the last form of Cooler was a powered up SSJ like state. He had his original form then he pumped it up.

[Casual Matt]

Question , I would of asked in it's own thread but it's really a yes (with answer) or no question.

Did they ever name Freeza's race?



Also to add to the topic at the moment. If Freeza's race start out in his last form then what about king cold? If he could have transformed he would of against future trunks right?

A) Freeza's race is never named, but Changeling seems to be a sparingly used fan term with no official roots.

B) King Cold's transformations have been speculation for years. It's probably best just to assume Mr Toriyama wasn't thinking about that.

[caejones]

As for King Cold. I think he knew he was weaker than Freeza and didn't stand a chance against Trunks, so transforming would have ruined his "Heh heh let me steal your sword if you won't join me" plan; he was shooting for strategy as opposed to brute strength, since the former is apparently his strength--too bad it... urm... disregarded that Trunks kicks plenty of ass on his own.


The dub dialogue in movie5 is confusion. -.-. I go with the "fourth form = normal, fifth=Suupa" idea.

[Teclo]

Well I still think my idea makes a lot of sense since it seems too much of a coincidence that Freeza and Coola's 4th forms are similar whereas their fathers form is most similar to Freeza's 1st or 2nd form. I can imagine that other members of Freeza's race will resemble his first form if they are weaker, his second if they're a little stronger and so on. This way of looking at it both incorporates transformations being used to suppress power but it also allows the notion that additional, more powerful forms can be reached. In this theory, however, when the new forms are reached they become the default form. So if Freeza reached a new higher power level (let's say 50 million for example) he would naturally start to resemble Coola's fifth form but could still return to his fourth form in order to suppress that great power (which is what Coola was doing at first).

[Kaboom]

But why couldn't it simply be the case that Kold was transformed at the time, and NOT in his natural state? They weren't planning on doing heavy fighting (they certainly weren't expecting Trunks), so they'd be holding back their power. Kold doing it via a restrictive transformation, and Freeza probably through his new cybernetics.

[Lol]

But why couldn't it simply be the case that Kold was transformed at the time, and NOT in his natural state? They weren't planning on doing heavy fighting (they certainly weren't expecting Trunks), so they'd be holding back their power. Kold doing it via a restrictive transformation, and Freeza probably through his new cybernetics.

I doubt that. Freeza was coming to Earth with the hopes of defeating Goku (A SSJ). So, if Freeza was ready to the war, why King Cold wasn't?
One possibility is that he could just have gone to watch. But maybe, Freeza was a lot stronger then him, making Cold just a useless old man.


Maybe something, like what happened with the Sayans, happened with Freeza family.
Gohan was born with much more power then Goku (We all know that if Gohan wanted to train, he problably would be the most powerful one). Looking at this side, this could have happened with Freeza's family too.

So, Coola and Freeza were born in differents final forms; Coola with a more powerful one, being a privileged son. So, people there were born with his ultimate forms already, making their powers predictable.

One second theory is that Coola final form is the final evolution, as someone said. Freeza's 100% would be like the USSJ and Coola's 5th transformation would be like a SSJ2...

Or Coola is son of another mother of another species...

[Teclo]

I agree with Lol. Not only was Freeza coming for revenge, you also have to consider that King Cold was along with him for some reason or another and since they know that Goku could kick Freeza's ass, it would also follow that he could kick Cold's ass - especially if he was suppressing his power. Not to mention that Cold resorts to trying to trick Trunks as he knows his days (or seconds) are numbered if he doesn't think fast. If he could transform to a more powerful state then you think he'd have done it.

[Casual Matt]

Though wasn't it said that Cold was "another huge power" or something to that effect? That doesn't really say much but it indicates he was enough to take notice of even when he's right next to Freeza.

[Kaboom]

Though wasn't it said that Cold was "another huge power" or something to that effect? That doesn't really say much but it indicates he was enough to take notice of even when he's right next to Freeza.

Ginyu was also regarded as a "huge power," even though the heroes had already sensed Freeza at that point.

I don't see why it all has to be complicated.

Their normal states come with naturally-gained restrictive transformations. Coola found a way to gain power by transcending his natural state to supposedly match Freeza's overall greater amount of power. When Kold and Freeza came to Earth, Kold was using one of his restrictive states, which Freeza likely couldn't use because his body was mangled.

[Teclo]

But that doesn't explain why Cold didn't transform when he was faced with Trunks.

I also think it's too much of a coincidence that we see Freeza's different forms repeated in his relatives and what forms we see them in seem to mirror their comparative powers. King Cold must be weaker than Freeza because he's a canon character and canonically Freeza was the strongest in the universe (at that time). Coola isn't a canon character so he's free from that assertion and is of course stated to be stronger than Freeza anyway.

[Casual Matt]

Makes enough sense. So Cold probably could have transformed, but he wouldn't have been any stronger than Freeza, anyway.