"What's Wrong with Dragon Ball Z"

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:28 pm

The flashbas were annoying during the Frieza saga. There were 3 particular scenes that they did about a billion flashbacks for during that saga: Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta, Piccolo merging with Nail, and Goku going SSJ.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:14 am

That was a pretty good read. I pretty much agree with everything stated on that article, especially the last sentence:

"If FUNimation had set the bar high with DBZ's dub, maybe we wouldn't have quite as many dubbing problems in the industry today."

But oh well, what's done is done, and everything that we've received thus far; I'm grateful for.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:23 am

Interesting article, thanks for posting.

I'm kinda even on how much I agree and disagree with the guy writing this. I agree heavily about how the power-level issue skyrockets out of all control and ends up turning the watcher off because you can't even comprehend what's going on anymore. There's some animation/plot recycling, but no more than your normal animated weekly TV show.

You know what though? The filler doesn't tend to really bothered me. I know this is a point of contention for a lot of people, so I'll say again that there are definitely idiotic filler points in the anime. I understand the sentiment that what isn't in the manga shouldn't be there. I'll admit fights are frequently dragged out too long, but I much prefer that to the Power Rangers formula as someone noted. (The same note applies to the issue about exposition.) But I like a lot of it too, because it's not so much the fighting I care about in the show as getting to know these guys and what they're like. My particular favorites are things like the time actually spent training for the sayiajin, instead of going straight to "and then after months of rigorous offscreen training, everyone was ready." It makes the time and the stress they've got on their shoulders more real when you actually witness some of it.

There are much worse things that can be done with filler, such as adding entire arcs that drag on forever- or something worse:

The worst example of filler I have ever come across would have to be Full Metal Panic. The general one, not fumofou or second raid (which are both excellent) . I originally read the manga and loved it. Then I watched that version of the anime. In the episodes I could get through (first six, ten?), there wasn't a lot of filler.... but what was there destroyed any sense that could be found. Like, tossing in a one-minute scene where the characters are OMG IN LUV where it never belonged, and then having them go back to treating each other like they did in the manga. Little inconstancies that killed the story.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:30 am

Velasa wrote:I'll admit fights are frequently dragged out too long, but I much prefer that to the Power Rangers formula as someone noted.

That is nowhere near fair. There's a world of difference between resolving all conflicts in twenty minutes and having Goku and Freeza gaze lovingly (and unmovingly) into each others' eyes for over three hours.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:39 am

That is quite annoying. But they were trying to build up the drama I guess. I find it funny that after all these years, when people refer to how much talking there is rather than fighting, they refer to the Frieza Saga. I remember when actually watching it, I was like, "Damn! What is this?" They stare at each other, the scene moves onto minor characters (whether it be Roshi, ChiChi, and the others on Earth, or King Kai), and then to the planet crumbling, then to Goku or Frieza. Then, they'd talk, and finally, action! Bam, two hits (one of those flashy fight sequences where you can't even see what they're doing) and guess what... Time to spread out and look at each other again.

Always pissed me off. But still, it's funny how after all this time, Frieza vs Goku lives on as one of the most boring fights ever. Not because it wasn't epic...but because there were more shots of Namek crumbling than Goku fighting Frieza. Actually, the Frieza Saga had A LOT of stuff in it. The fight against Frieza itself was great. Going through his transformations, him fighting Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo. Frieza fighting/killing Vegeta. Frieza fighting Goku. The little arc where Piccolo was helping stall Frieza while Goku builds a Spirit Bomb was an amazing scene. Then the plot twist where Frieza returns, injures Piccolo and kills Krillin. Goku becoming Super Saiyan. Man, that battle was EPIC as epic gets, with lots of twists and turns. So I think that the action up until Goku turned Super Saiyan more than made up for them staring at each other for 18 minutes of each show.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:01 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:So I think that the action up until Goku turned Super Saiyan more than made up for them staring at each other for 18 minutes of each show.

Agreed ^^

There is a big gap between the Power rangers and the Freezer fight, admittedly. I admit exaggeration for the sake of a reference we'd all understand > > But it still doesn't really bother me too much. The loving stares are when I bring out the remote and get back to my kids/the fighting. Or I sit there and mock the shit out of them, which is just as fun.

JohnnyBoy_Z · Post by **JohnnyBoy_Z** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:12 am

Rocketman wrote:Everything wrong with Dragonball can be traced back to one word - filler.

Exactly. And every anime series ever made has either some or a lot of it.

Arcwave · Post by **Arcwave** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:29 am

Hmm.. I agree with ect5150 and his counter-argument. But at least DBZ is making the news? Hehe.

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:23 am

The Animation Recycling

Animated shows often use whatever means they can to cut costs and quicken the labor-intensive animation process. It's understandable to a degree; this is a business we're talking about after all. But, as with most things in this list, DBZ takes a forgivable offense into new levels of abuse...

I've got to say, I barely noticed and can't think of any off the top of my head right now. I don't know about the person who wrote the article but since DBZ wasn't animated a few years before Funi picked it up and in 1989 and counting that the DB and Z animes had the same low budget, and it was a long running series from the late 80's/early 90's it's understandable. That's like saying that something like Hokuto No Ken has crappy animation when it's obviously from 1984.

I do agree with the plot to some extent being predictable but, I can't say it was too predictable when Freeza came to Earth and then somebody like comes around, turns Super Saiyan, and kills the most evil villain with one strike. Or even that Goku really is part of an alien race. Actually if you don't know the plot I really think that most things are actually surprising and pretty shocking.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:05 am

I also agree with TheGreatness. I remember hating the Freeza saga for its long windedness but if you're not stuck only being able to watch one episode a day, or Kami help us one episode a week, then it's bearable and very enjoyable. When I picked up the third FUNi season, I watched the whole thing straight and was amazed at how awesome it truly was.

I used to be annoyed at the recycled animation as well but I can't seem to really find much now that I've watched the season sets. It feels like that either I was mistaken or it doesn't start til the Cell saga.

SonEric84 · Post by **SonEric84** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:22 am

I guess I am the only one that doesn't really have all that much of a problem with filler. I'll admit, when they cut over to minor characters during a major battle sometimes it was like "no wait! go back!", but never really to the point that I started to dislike that aspect of the show. Well, maybe a little during Goku vs. Freeza, but it seems like everyone has that issue. There's actually quite a bit of filler that I enjoy.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:30 am

I'm finding the responses about filler really intriguing. Just wanted to say that

. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with any particular points (in fact, I don't believe I have a set opinion), but it's certainly neat to read the viewpoints.

I do want to reiterate a point that's already been brought up, and I think it's an essential one... the article, while obviously emotionally-appealing to the actual DBZ fans, isn't necessarily intended for them. Whether or not the DBZ fans agree with what's being said, it's regurgitating conversations they've had in the US since 1994 (many points earlier than that; their last point cannot occur before that, though). The article is for the rest of fandom / non-fandom, and gives a somewhat-legitimate perspective from a *NON*-DBZ outlet. That is almost essential if you're going to have the "other side" even half-listen in the first place.

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:32 am

This Isler guy isn't telling anything new in his article.
Was this meant to older fans?

Other than that he's being unfair to dbz in some aspects. For one, he isn’t taking into account that the anime was made way back in 1986.

Then this:
''DBZ's re-use of animation frames and notorious flashback scenes/filler set a standard that too many anime series have since used''

Oh ya, dbz is totally wrong because it was so awesome that others decided to steal the concept and therefore set a standard.

And also: ''This, combined with Freeza's initial ambiguous features (is that purple lipstick?), made a lot of fans confused about Freeza's gender for a while.''

This is totally a thing I would expect to find on a forum people nagging about. And god help me I won't go into it again.

Anyways...bring on part two!

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:53 am

The weirdest thing that I find about the Dragon Ball fandom is that there are fans out there who can know everything there is to know about Dragon Ball, but they just still don't seem to get it:

Dragon Ball isn't supposed to make sense or even be taken seriously. The anime went and made it all serious.

Toriyama even states his intentions in the little "prologue blurb" (manga page inside the cover) of the 1st Dragon Ball volume that he doesn't put much thought into the details of the story, but makes them up as he goes along:

"The overall story is very simple, but I'd like to keep making up more details and illustrations as I go along. This way, I can draw anything I want and enjoy the tension and excitment of figuring out what I'll draw next."

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:57 am

I totally thought that Freeza was a chick when I saw the first few Namek saga episodes on Cartoon Network. It was also around this time that I stopped watching the show because it was filled with twenty minutes of nothing.

I didn't realize the he wasn't until a alomost two years later when I started catching the Midnight Run and watched the Freeza and Cell sagas at the same time.

As for the filler, it doesn't really bother me much. Probably because I didn't become familiar with the term or concept until last year when I started frequenting Dragonball forums such as this one. The only one time it gets really annoying is when the constantly interupt a really good fight. When they do it to get a reaction shot of people watching the fight in person or showing what's happening at Kame house or with Chi-chi, it sounds like a good idea in theory but needs to be executed properly which sometimes it fails to.

When it comes to completely new storys that have no real connection to the main story I like these. I really like ones where there's no current threat and everyone's hanging out and interacting with each other.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:43 am

Artificial Human #887 · Post by **Artificial Human #887** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:14 am

I don't really think all of the filler is that bad, to be honest. Some of my favorite moments from the anime were filler (a la Vegeta and the pink shirt and Goku and Piccolo in driving school. Piccolo is civilian clothes never ceases to put me in a fit of hysterics). Yes, there was a lot of plot-hole ridden filler moments, and just plain garbage, but it wasn't all horrendously bad. Although Maron in any version makes me want to gouge my eyeballs out.

When it comes to recycled footage, I don't think it's all that bad. With the exception of the mass amount of flashbacks (notably during the Freeza saga), I can't recall all that many recycled frames. Though my favorite is Piccolo's stare towards Goku and Mirai Trunks. They used the same frame a few times, but it was just funny for me to see. The flashbacks on the other hand, got on my nerves. I really hated watching things that I just saw two or three episodes prior to what was currently happening.

I really don't feel like this article covered anything we haven't seen here of Daizex a million times. Though I guess the average Dragon Ball fan doesn't really delve into all this stuff the way we do. It was still an interesting read, despite the fact that it didn't bring anything new to the table for me.

Hero 004 · Post by **Hero 004** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:37 pm

I enjyed the read. I have a different interpretation of the dub (most of the time), but everything else was dead-on. a lot of those points are why I've gone on "dry spells" with DBZ before after watching some repetative Frieza saga episodes or something. I had actually never heard the Drag-ON Ball Z crack before, that's hilarious.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:58 pm

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:Dragon Ball isn't supposed to make sense or even be taken seriously. The anime went and made it all serious.

Toriyama even states his intentions in the little "prologue blurb" (manga page inside the cover) of the 1st Dragon Ball volume that he doesn't put much thought into the details of the story, but makes them up as he goes along:

"The overall story is very simple, but I'd like to keep making up more details and illustrations as I go along. This way, I can draw anything I want and enjoy the tension and excitment of figuring out what I'll draw next."

Sometimes, you can start a story very silly, and then as you keep going the story gets a life of its own and becomes much more than you meant it to be. It's happened to me in writing more than once and that's what I'm seeing as having happened here. DB starts very silly and fun and as it keeps rolling the show still has silly and fun but transitions to have just as much that's moving and awesome. The characters are what I've always gone for in the show, and their stories get pretty damn deep. Part of this comes from spending years searching through them and expanding them out in fandom, but there's a lot of beauty and pathos that was there in the first place to spark our interests and make us want to dive in deeper. Is this the most complicated show ever? No. But it's definitely got a lot of serious parts to it once it picks up.

Back to what people are saying about filler- it's nice to see more people actually liking it oO I was expecting to get more arguments for saying I liked it. So this is pretty cool.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:17 pm

I do like some parts of filler - the driving episode, the party episode at the end of Z, Pink Shirt Vegeta's introduction, hell, even the Garlic Jr Saga isn't that bad (my dislike for it stems from my somewhat irrational hatred of Gohan more than it being filler).

Eye gazing, 10-minute powerups, 'dramatic' pans over one character's face then the other's (and some spectators too) then a long range shot then a mid range shot then a short range shot from the ground looking up then a long range shot again - to hell with it all.