"What's Wrong with Dragon Ball Z"

[kvon]

Here's an interesting read.

http://anime.ign.com/articles/865/865869p1.html

[Haseowolf]

They make a lot of interesting points and I have to say I agree with them. Parts and aspects of the show are really really bad, but that's why I think I'm a fan. I can look past all the shit that sucks, laugh along with it, and then enjoy the greatness behind the rest.

I've seen the whole series Dubbed, most of it subbed, and now with the new box sets (I JUST WANT THE DAMN SHOW ON DVD) am watching the series subbed all the way through. Did I want to skip the Garlic Junior saga this time around? Fuck yeah I did! Did I? Nope, wanted to sit back and watch and remember and experience every bit of it.

I watch the show because it is totally awesome, but know what parts are garbage, but enjoy it anyways.

The only problem I have with them is the whole recurring plot. The villains do have reasons for being there, not just showing up from space. I don't need to expound on that because all of us here know that story.

[Raki]

The Dub

This doesn't have anything to do with the merits of the original series, but it has to be mentioned. The poor quality and over the top nature of the English dubbing in DBZ is something that both devoted fans and virulent enemies of the series can agree upon. This is a rather important thing to take note of since DBZ was very popular and profitable for U.S. companies despite this defect. It sent a message to North American companies that they didn't need to put much effort into dubs in order to make a profit

The voice of Freeza (or Freeza if you prefer) was one of the odder choices. He's supposedly one of the baddest mofos in the universe, but his voice in the FUNimation dub makes him sound like an old lady that's been smoking unfiltered menthol Kools for about two decades. This, combined with Freeza's initial ambiguous features (is that purple lipstick?), made a lot of fans confused about Freeza's gender for a while.

FUNimation was responsible for the DBZ dub, and thankfully their efforts to dub other series have gotten much better. But horrible dubs are STILL a huge problem, and many companies outside of Japan still seem to have the impression that a "passable" adaptation is good enough for them to make a profit. In turn, many potential fans of DBZ and anime in general have been turned off by some quite annoying voice acting that in some cases ruins an otherwise brilliant show. If FUNimation had set the bar high with DBZ's dub, maybe we wouldn't have quite as many dubbing problems in the industry today.

I am suprised that even IGN recognizes this. But their problems with the show are common things I hear from detractors. The story isn't recycled that much, but it's a shonen manga/anime, what else can you expect.

[Rocketman]

Everything wrong with Dragonball can be traced back to one word - filler.

[Haseowolf]

^^ Agreed. Seconded. All that like.

Dragonball Z doesn't really have that much wrong with it. They used the recycled animation, but how they forget how other anime at the time was using it much more often. Sailor Moon, anyone? At least they gave us the Kamehameha with different angles and animation each time.

[NeptuneKai]

I love how the article intro was saying "WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE BIG POINTS THAT FOURM ARGUMENTS JUST DONT COVER!!!11" Yet they use the same arguments I always hear on forum debates. If nothing else could this be a plausible Podcast topic?

[jjgp1112]

I think that the main criticism aimed at DBZ - how the story tends to drag on and has too many flashbacks - was only really prevalent in the Frieza saga. And their are so many shows that are worse with that. Yu-Gi-Oh (yeah, I went through that phase when I was 10) would have multiple episodes dedicated to talking and flashbacks. Duels during the battle city arc would often-time last 2-4 episodes thanks to all of the talking. It was ridiculous. And Pokeman had A LOT of recycled animation.

[Rocketman]

I think that the main criticism aimed at DBZ - how the story tends to drag on and has too many flashbacks - was only really prevalent in the Freeza saga.

I say that's pretty much bull, since the entire first episode is Gohan wandering around lost.

I shall do that as an experiment, I think - cut every instance of padding and see how long the series is once it's just an animated version of the manga.

[jjgp1112]

I think that the main criticism aimed at DBZ - how the story tends to drag on and has too many flashbacks - was only really prevalent in the Freeza saga.

I say that's pretty much bull, since the entire first episode is Gohan wandering around lost.

I shall do that as an experiment, I think - cut every instance of padding and see how long the series is once it's just an animated version of the manga.

I mean when things really got going. If Goku vs. Vegeta happened in the Frieza saga, it would take 5 episodes because we'd probably have a filler adventure involving Yajirobe in-between, and billion flashbacks of Goku's training, as well as flashbacks of Yamcha, Chiaotzu, Tien, and Piccolo dying.

[Haseowolf]

You know I actually wanted to do a "Feature Film" version, if you will, of the series by condensing it into 3 different movies. One being the the arrival of Raditz to the discovery of Namek, the second comprising all of Namek's happenings concluding with the arrival of Trunks, and the third being Trunks destroying Freeza, the androids, and Cell up to Gohan defeating Cell.

It seems like it might be impossible with all the footage...but then I stop to think of what was not needed in the series and how much filler there is u.u ...

[ect5150]

We're not really interested in bashing DBZ just for the sake of bashing DBZ. That would be pointless – and honestly you can go to any anime forum and find plenty of that already. No, what we'd like to do here is something a bit more…academic.

They don't want to bash it, but that's exactly what they do. I'd hardly call it academic.

Most things mentioned in the article are somewhat unique to DBZ, but that's probably not a weakness as it differentiates it from all other series.

They complain about dialogue within the battles. If they switched it, the complaint would most likely be "all they do is fight... we don't really understand why these characters are fighting, what motivates them," and so on and so forth.

They complain about the series being a never ending quest for power. So what? This is just how the author has decided to resolve conflicts. its like claiming "Damn that Sherlock Holmes... I wish he'd just beat the shit out the bad guy instead of using him mind to figure things out."

They complain about "Recycled, Predictable Plot" ... but this obviously isn't so easy to duplicate, otherwise GT would have been just as successful DB or DBZ. So the predictable plot must have something a little more to it to ensure a successful presentation.

Then they complain about the Drag-On Ball aspect of it... the long winded-ness of some things. Screen shots on the article come from the Freeza-Saga so we know exactly what he's referring to. Again, I think this is somewhat crap. After watching DBZ and then watching other series, I've started to think "Well, that conflict was solved awfully fast... they basically saved the world in 8 minutes time... how realistic is that for any given fantasy world... guess what? They did it in 7 minutes the following week!" This falls on the preference of the individual viewer. If he needs battles to be resolved within a 20 minute span, please direct him to any Power Rangers show.

Then they complain about the Dub. While I think it sucks, they claim FUNI opened the door for bad dubs in the US. This claim is bullshit. Let me tell you, there were plenty of bad dubs before DBZ, and plenty of good ones. DBZ has somewhat come and gone in the US mainstream, and there are plenty of bad dubs and plenty of good ones still around. I doubt it had a very lasting affect if any negative affect at all. Also, at the time, DBZ was out there for anyone to bring over to the US. FUNI is the only company that got off their ass and gave it a shot (or at least, gave it a first successful shot). As much as we gripe about FUNI, without them, we may not have gotten DBZ at all (or at least at a later date).

[ect5150]

I think that the main criticism aimed at DBZ - how the story tends to drag on and has too many flashbacks - was only really prevalent in the Freeza saga.

I say that's pretty much bull, since the entire first episode is Gohan wandering around lost.

I shall do that as an experiment, I think - cut every instance of padding and see how long the series is once it's just an animated version of the manga.

I'd be interested in the results of that experiment actually. However, they are clearly swinging at the anime, not the manga. Half of the other points fall off if we make the comparison to the manga.

[GizmoKSX]

Dragonball Z doesn't really have that much wrong with it. They used the recycled animation, but how they forget how other anime at the time was using it much more often. Sailor Moon, anyone? At least they gave us the Kamehameha with different angles and animation each time.

That's a good point. Shows like Ronin Warriors and Tekkaman Blade/Teknoman would recycle entire sequences of animation throughout the series. For that matter, I used to love Power Rangers, and I saw the exact same sequence of the Megazord forming countless times—never bothered me at the time, though.
Looking at it from that perspective, DBZ actually did a much more respectable job. A lesser series would have shown us the same extended sequence of Goku turning Super Saiyan every time (complete with starry backgrounds and the exact same music) just to fill time.
Trouble is, DBZ is widely known for the fighting, and said fights do sometimes tend to drag on with recycled animation within themselves. My personal gripe is with the moments of fast-moving fists and dodging heads. It comes off as an implied fight as opposed to something that's really interesting to watch. (...to say nothing of fights that are "too fast to see," where we're shown black scratches in the sky while Piccolo or Vegeta brag about actually being able to follow the action. )

[xzero]

Regarding their thoughts on the dub, I think the statement about Funimation needing to set the bar higher is not necessarily the strongest argument, but I can see where they're going with it. I remember once Family Guy was bashed by John Kricfalusi for the ease with which a 10-year old could draw the show. His point was that Family Guy set low standards in the animation industry. The same argument is being made here of the DBZ dub, that the immense popularity of the show back in the early years of the current decade lead other dubbing companies to set their standards equally low because Americans don't care about the quality of the dub.

This argument is, in its purest sense, erroneous. It could perhaps be backed up by specific examples to strengthen it, but as has been pointed out, bad dubs came before and after DBZ. If IGN could illustrate that 4Kids, acting upon inspiration from Funimation, made the proactive decision as a direct result to anally rape its various properties in their respective dubs, the argument would have a better point. As it is, it illustrates the unprofessional nature of the dub, at least for the first few years of Funimation's reign, but fails to consider that DBZ, regardless of its cultural impact, could easily have had little impact on other companies' decisions regarding the specific quality of their dubs in the light of the success of DBZ. In the absence of credible evidence of a connection, their argument falls short of sufficient.

[caejones]

I think that the main criticism aimed at DBZ - how the story tends to drag on and has too many flashbacks - was only really prevalent in the Freeza saga.

I say that's pretty much bull, since the entire first episode is Gohan wandering around lost.

I shall do that as an experiment, I think - cut every instance of padding and see how long the series is once it's just an animated version of the manga.

Any idea how long that would take? Idoubt I'm the only one that's been waiting for someone more capable than me to try it...
(Whatever happened to that"get the Freeza fight down to five minutes" AMV contest idea?)

What's wrong with DBZ?
Reaction shot saturation. (This reminds me of one of the Sailor Moon movies... hmm... I only saw the second half (dream-blackhole-thing?). The ending is pretty much, "Give me your energy!" "Sailor moooon!" "Sailor mooooon!" "Sailor mooooon!" Etc... reminds me of DBZ Movie8...)
Over use of the same Flashback (22nd budokai in particular showed us TaoPaipai's death and Goku's filler ass-kicking at the hands of Ten way too much).


... You know what I just realized? The first major villain that doesn't fight over the DBs is Gero (and he had connections o them). Hmm.

Most of the complaints of redundant villains and plot fit better with the movies than the series, if you ask me. Tullece, Slug, Bojak, and probably movie10 Broli... the only difference in those stories is gimmickal (Fruit and evil Goku, SuperNamek and quest for youth (never mind that such is even more recycled), Revenge for the death of Freeza, and ... why did Bojak randomly show up on Earth as his first target, anyway?).

[Rocketman]

(Whatever happened to that"get the Freeza fight down to five minutes" AMV contest idea?)

Trying to find a five minute song.

Any idea how long that would take?

It'll be a few weeks before I can get back to my manga, but I might try to make a preliminary 'episode' (20 minutes, probably no audio, maybe subtitles from the show that'll later be replaced by Viz-manga dialogue) up before then, using Daizex's filler guide as a base.

[VegettoEX]

I need to nip this in the bud before it gets out-of-hand.

So here's the situation. We do a couple "Inconsistencies" videos, and we suddenly get a lot of responses from people telling us to shut up, enjoy the show, stop being mean to it, blah blah blah.

If we spent so much time talking about these inconsistencies and even spent the asinine amount of time to research them and make videos about them... wouldn't you assume that we do love the show to death? If we hated it, why would we waste our time?

I see the same situation with this article. Its negative aspects are being written about from the point of view of someone who clearly likes the show.

Let's try to keep this civil, at least to the extent that the article in question allows and sets the tone of. Unfortunately, this is the kind of conversation that I've had to lock time and time again in the past, and I'd prefer to not go through that again . That is all.

[Adamant]

Honeslty, the only real problem the series has was that the manga story arcs were so incredibly long that the anime couldn't find room for more standard filler when it got in danger of catching up, and instead had to either draw out scenes to the extreme or throw in tons and tons of scenes featuring characters not around where the main story takes place at the time. People love complaining about filler arcs, but they tend to be much more watchable than endless worthless small scenes scattered all over the episodes during actual manga adaptations.

[Sebastian (SB)]

People love complaining about filler arcs, but they tend to be much more watchable than endless worthless small scenes scattered all over the episodes during actual manga adaptations.

I agree.

I think this article is a bit behind the times. It's only gonna serve fire for the fanboys.

[MagicBox]

I am very impressed and surprised that IGN counted the English dub as one of the series' negative aspects. I mean, outside of message boards and fansites created specifically for the series itself, you don't really hear any dub complaints about the show. I didn't expect to see an "official" website (and I use "official" because I don't quite know how else to word it) choose sides on that issue.

Fun read, but I can't really say it was very enlightening. After all, we've all been debating these issues for years, but then again, I guess this article isn't really for us. It's more for casual fans or potential viewers. In that sense, it does do a nice job of summing up what to expect when going into the series (as well as giving a recommendation of which language to start off with. Bravo.). I can't really see this helping to improve DragonBall's already bad reputation with anime fans, though. Oh well. It's not like that was the point anyway.

And yes, the recycled animation does irritate, but Digimon Adventure is still the reigning champion in that area.