On the "Dragonball was supposed to end with Freeza"

[laserkid]

I don't exactly recall where, but I do believe Toriyama stated this in an interview somewhere.

Lets also look at the story - Kuririn is dead, Vegeta is dead, Piccolo is (assumed) dead, Namek is falling apart, everyone besides Goku and Freeza is wished to Earth for their own safety, while Goku and Freeza fight a hopeless battle on a dying planet (read: hell - sort of like how Mustafar in Star Wars represented hell).

In the end of the battle both Goku and Freeza are assumed to have died, until Shenlong says otherwise when they try to bring Goku back to life.

I think the signs of how everything was closing to the ultimate dramatic end are pretty clear.

Now, I'm GLAD it DIDN'T end with that (too depressing an ending for Dragon Ball, I think, though on the flipside unlike the Buu era, it WAS an actual ending).

Make of all this as you will.

[djkalteraphine]

In all honesty, the only ending I like more than the Freeza saga is the Evil Dragon saga. I like the full-circle-ness of it.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't exactly recall where, but I do believe Toriyama stated this in an interview somewhere.

Lets also look at the story - Kuririn is dead, Vegeta is dead, Piccolo is (assumed) dead, Namek is falling apart, everyone besides Goku and Freeza is wished to Earth for their own safety, while Goku and Freeza fight a hopeless battle on a dying planet (read: hell - sort of like how Mustafar in Star Wars represented hell).

In the end of the battle both Goku and Freeza are assumed to have died, until Shenlong says otherwise when they try to bring Goku back to life.

I think the signs of how everything was closing to the ultimate dramatic end are pretty clear.

Now, I'm GLAD it DIDN'T end with that (too depressing an ending for Dragon Ball, I think, though on the flipside unlike the Buu era, it WAS an actual ending).

Make of all this as you will.

You act as if Toriyama changed his mind at the very last second. I mean, we find out that Goku didn't actually die, what, two chapters later?

(This is assuming the rumor is even true, which I don't think it is.)

[Herms]

You act as if Toriyama changed his mind at the very last second. I mean, we find out that Goku didn't actually die, what, two chapters later?

It's literally the very next chapter after Goku's supposed death that we find out he's alive, and two chapters for Freeza.

[Kid Trunks]

You act as if Toriyama changed his mind at the very last second. I mean, we find out that Goku didn't actually die, what, two chapters later?

But that could be argued as a last minute U-turn.

[Herms]

I don't exactly recall where, but I do believe Toriyama stated this in an interview somewhere.

I'm close to 100% sure he never did, though. Everyone always says they remember reading it in some interview somewhere, but nobody every has anything more specific than that.

You act as if Toriyama changed his mind at the very last second. I mean, we find out that Goku didn't actually die, what, two chapters later?

But that could be argued as a last minute U-turn.

That would be one heck of a U-turn, to plan on doing a certain thing one week, and then change to the opposite thing the next. And what would cause such a sudden, drastic switch? Fan pressure? He'd be working on the next chapter already by the time responses came in. Toriyama talks a bit about negative fan reactions to things in some of his interviews (like the Shenron Times #2 one he did with his editors), and he says nothing about that.

His editor maybe? That's more plausible, but you'd think his editor would make his feelings known a little sooner. Anyway, Toriyama mentions in interviews some of the changes his different editors made him make (switching from one set of android to the next, for instance), but he never says anything about that. You could say that they won't let him talk about that, or he just considers it not his his best interest to air such dirty laundry, but the overriding fact is that there's no proof for the whole thing. All we have any evidence for is that Toriyama intended to end the manga much earlier than he eventually did. Anything more specific than that is just making things up.

[Kid Trunks]

You act as if Toriyama changed his mind at the very last second. I mean, we find out that Goku didn't actually die, what, two chapters later?

But that could be argued as a last minute U-turn.

That would be one heck of a U-turn, to plan on doing a certain thing one week, and then change to the opposite thing the next. And what would cause such a sudden, drastic switch? Fan pressure? He'd be working on the next chapter already by the time responses came in. Toriyama talks a bit about negative fan reactions to things in some of his interviews (like the Shenron Times #2 one he did with his editors), and he says nothing about that.

The U-turn wouldn't have to be last minute. He could have had Goku's death planned as the ending well in advance (or not, it doesn't matter). And as ending drew nearer he took the decision to make Goku survive instead. Why? I don't know. I've heard about fan pressure, and his wife persuading him to continue. But I haven't a notion if any of that is true.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't exactly recall where, but I do believe Toriyama stated this in an interview somewhere.

I'm close to 100% sure he never did, though. Everyone always says they remember reading it in some interview somewhere, but nobody every has anything more specific than that.

I've always hated the old "I think I read that in an interview somewhere" line. Any time someone says something like that, I usually take it worth a grain of salt. Anything could have been said "in an interview."

Plus, there are a lot of fake interviews floating around. Especially for Dragon Ball.

But that could be argued as a last minute U-turn.

That would be one heck of a U-turn, to plan on doing a certain thing one week, and then change to the opposite thing the next. And what would cause such a sudden, drastic switch? Fan pressure? He'd be working on the next chapter already by the time responses came in. Toriyama talks a bit about negative fan reactions to things in some of his interviews (like the Shenron Times #2 one he did with his editors), and he says nothing about that.

The U-turn wouldn't have to be last minute. He could have had Goku's death planned as the ending well in advance (or not, it doesn't matter). And as ending drew nearer he took the decision to make Goku survive instead. Why? I don't know. I've heard about fan pressure, and his wife persuading him to continue. But I haven't a notion if any of that is true.

Why would his wife care, and how would fans know that it was ending? It sounds more like a fanboy's dream, to me.

[Storm]

I would think that if you're creating a heavily popular piece of fiction, your wife would take an interest in your work.

[Kid Trunks]

Why would his wife care, and how would fans know that it was ending? It sounds more like a fanboy's dream, to me.

How should I know? Thats just what I heard. I hope your not implying that its my dream Because its not.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

No, I was referring to the fanboys that pop up in these discussions and rant and rave about how the Freeza arc being the end of the series would make Dragon Ball the greatest manga of all time, and that they personally pretend that the Cell and Boo arcs never happened.

[djkalteraphine]

I would think that if you're creating a heavily popular piece of fiction, your wife would take an interest in your work.

His wife came up with the name Kamehameha, for instance.

[Castor Troy]

With all these rumors, it sounded like Toriyama wanted it to end after drawing the first panel.

I'd like to believe the ending after Freeza one is the most accurate because you can tell that there was a lot of indication towards an epic finale. Having the Red Ribbon army being responsible for Cell and the Androids sounded a bit tacked on (although androids/cell is my favorite saga).

[Rocketman]

No, I was referring to the fanboys that pop up in these discussions and rant and rave about how the Freeza arc being the end of the series would make Dragon Ball the greatest manga of all time

Which it would have.

But really, I think lot of it comes from just how the story plays out:

1. It's the final battle with the one guy responsible for the entire series, as Goku went to Earth as part of the Saiyans working for Freeza.

2. Goku comes to grips with his past, fulfills an ancient legend, and sacrifices himself to kill the tyrant who's held the whole galaxy in fear. Thread ended.

3. Goku's died twice, even if the Dragonballs are still around, they can't bring him back. And if the DBs are still around, then Piccolo has done a 180 - now protecting the planet he was born to destroy. Thread ended.

4. Gohan's had his hidden powers unlocked and is the second-strongest being in the universe (if Piccolo's still around). Thread ended.

5. Vegeta died like his father, attempting to stop Freeza, and the Saiyans are extinct. Thread ended.

Basically, it all wraps up into a tidy little package...

until Goku and Freeza "somehow" escape the exploding Namek, even though we saw their last moments, and there's a new character, and he's a Super Saiyan too ZOMG, and a plot point settled long ago is dredged up again for...some reason or another and blahblahbladdyblah.

[Orochi_Rockman]

I like Freeza, so I would have been happy if it ended there. I would also accept Freeza and Goku killing each other, Piccolo training Gohan, and Gohan killing Cell with a SSj2 powered Makankosappo(sp?) as an additional alternate ending to the series.

Goku got way too many "Get out of Death Free" cards.

[Jermyn]

Wow, I can't believe so many people here dislike the Cell and Buu arcs and yet still are the fans of the series, it boggles my mind. To me, it ending with Goku die on Namek would've been a horrible ending because A Goku being the hero of the story must get a happy ending (which got in the Buu arc) B because we can never get to meet the awesomeness of Trunks, the Artificial Humans, Cell, Mr. Satan, Kaioshin, Dubura, Babidi and Majin Buu. And C Vegeta would never get any character development, Piccolo would never get fuse with Kami and Krillan would never get his dream girl. So yes I'm glad Dragonball continued because if it had ended there I probably never would have gotten into it at all (Seeing the Cell arc on Toonami back in 2000 made me a fan)

[fps_anth]

Dragon Ball would have been way better if it ended at the end of the Cell arc as opposed to the Freeza arc.


Hell, even the Buu arc

[Metalwario64]

(Seeing the Cell arc on Toonami back in 200 made me a fan)

Wow... How are you still alive?...

[Castor Troy]

5. Vegeta died like his father, attempting to stop Freeza, and the Saiyans are extinct. Thread ended.

Vegeta was revived with the wish from the earth dragonballs. He still would have been around even if Goku died.

[Artificial Human #887]

5. Vegeta died like his father, attempting to stop Freeza, and the Saiyans are extinct. Thread ended.

Vegeta was revived with the wish from the earth dragonballs. He still would have been around even if Goku died.

I think that if Toriyama had actually ended it at the end of Freeza, They probably wouldn't have wished Vegeta back.