Vegeta's second year in the RoSaT

[Li'l Lemmy]

I guess everyone here forgot the massive power Gain that Goku got from training alone on his way to Namek, and one freaking "zenkai" after the Giynu battle.

You're forgetting that Goku had already figured out what a zenkai was before he even left for Namek. He abused several of those along the way.

Vegeta's RoSaT training, however, takes place after "zenkai" is no longer applicable to the Saiyan physiology, so of course he won't make the massive gains training alone that Goku did in training the same way.

The training alone theory just doesn't fly with me personally. Sure, training with someone can help a lot, but I don't think it's that much of a difference maker.

It makes all the difference in the Dragonball universe, from what I've seen. Gains are always stupendously larger in training with someone of reasonably similar ability than they are by going it alone. Tenshinhan got more out of Kaio-sama's training than Goku ever did (minus the omission of specific techniques)-- not only because he stayed there longer, but because he had no shortage of people to improve himself against. Goku and Gohan stayed ahead of Vegeta and Trunks with one year's RoSaT training against their two. Why? One pair trained cooperatively and the other didn't. Hell, even Goten and Trunks made impressive gains during their time in the room-- it's just a fact of Dragonball that training with others gets you more of a net gain.

Her is the real reason Vegeta and Trunks didn't do Full power SSJ, they are not the main characters, end of story.

I am a huge Vegeta fanboy, and I hate that it makes no sense, but that's the reason.

I suppose to a degree that's true, but I think Toriyama-sensei always did his best to give everyone their shot.

Interesting topic, you brought up some good points and questions, Lemmy. Vegeta does get far more time training in the RoSaT than Goku and Gohan, so it's odd that Goku was still so incredibly superior to him in the battle with Cell. He did get powerful enough to at least hold his own with a Cell Jr., even if it could pwn his Final Flash, and knock the wind out of Super Perfect Cell with his best attack. I'd say that qualifies him as pretty close to Goku's max. level at the time, though probably only enough that he'd get only a few good shots in if they were to battle.

Which is why I'm reasonably certain that Rocketman's estimate of Vegeta leveling off at between 80 and 90 percent of Goku's full power isn't too far off.

Oh hey, waiting for another reply email. ^^;

Check.


~Da Lemmy

[Rocketman]

He did get powerful enough to at least hold his own with a Cell Jr., even if it could pwn his Final Flash

That was complete bullshit, even for filler. The Final Flash by a much weaker USSJ Vegeta obliterated half of a Perfect Cell who was much stronger than said Vegeta. It should've vaporized the little pos.

[mAcChaos]

He didn't let it explode on him. He deflected it.

[Li'l Lemmy]

That was complete bullshit, even for filler. The Final Flash by a much weaker USSJ Vegeta obliterated half of a Perfect Cell who was much stronger than said Vegeta. It should've vaporized the little pos.

Not necessarily. Even after the second year of RoSaT training, Cell was still ahead of Vegeta (and Goku, too) by leaps and bounds. The only difference here is that the Cell Junior wasn't dumb enough to just stand there and let the attack hit him.


~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

You're forgetting that Goku had already figured out what a zenkai was before he even left for Namek. He abused several of those along the way.

Quite the contrary, actually. He was just training himself to exhaustion, taking a senzu, and training more. He had no idea what a zenkai was, but he was repeatedly taking advantage of it without even knowing.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Eh? 'Zat so? I'd thought it was at least semi-conscious on Goku's part, but whatever . . .

Well, so long as the fact remains that he was in fact getting the damned zenkais. Whether he was consciously aware of it or not makes no difference to me.

Still, s'good to be schooled on a mistake so that it's not made a second time. Thanks, Kaboom!


~Da Lemmy

[Yasai-R-Mighty]

It makes all the difference in the Dragonball universe, from what I've seen. Gains are always stupendously larger in training with someone of reasonably similar ability than they are by going it alone. Tenshinhan got more out of Kaio-sama's training than Goku ever did (minus the omission of specific techniques)-- not only because he stayed there longer, but because he had no shortage of people to improve himself against.

Exactly, to me the single greatest advantage that Goku and Gohan, had on Vegeta is the fact that they would train together. I would go as far to say that this isn't only true, in the DB universe, but also makes common sense in real life. If you're practicing for any sort of competitive activity (fighting can be defined as such) there's nothing like having another mind, to challenge you, by coming out with trick and strategies that you in turn have to, find away around. Also in these cases you'll get faster and strong because, you want to stay on par with other people. It's ironic because Vegeta I think had an advantage with Trunks, which he completely took for granted. Trunks was already a super saiyan, and was arguably more advanced then Gohan when he, entered the RoSaT with Vegeta, Goku had to take time away from his training to get Gohan up to speed. If Vegeta would have decided to train with Trunks they could have had some intense sessions from the start.

Another reason why I think Goku, usually surpasses Vegeta is because of his method of training (sort of reminiscent of Kamesinen's) He allows his body time to recover from the training, as oppose to Vegeta that over dose it all the time, never taking the time to fully rest.

2) From what I've come to understand about them, Goku and Gohan's "Mastered" Super Saiyan and Vegeta and Trunks' "Ultra Super Saiyan" are polar opposites. In that they both try to tap into and gain more power (arguably SSj2's power), but go about it in completely different ways.

MSSj focuses on relaxing the body and allowing it to become accustomed to Super Saiyan's power, allowing you to then get more out of your training as a Super Saiyan and gain more power naturally. USSj, on the other hand, is all about forcibly pumping more power into your body than it's really ready for, which causes a lot of stress.

That said, to go for MSSj, Vegeta would have a LOT of "backtracking" to do. He'd essentially have to forget everything he learned and achieved during his first stay in the room. After that, he's already got a lot more Super Saiyan power to become accustomed to, but it's not clear whether that power would be a help or a hindrance in the long run.

That's a very intriguing theory, I can honestly say I've never looked at it that way, but it makes sense. I agree at least, on the part where Vegeta never considered getting use to being in super saiyan, while in relaxed state, like Goku did. Although I'm not sure I agree that USSj and MSSj are so different that it would involve a total backtrack. After all Goku was able to do it in the RoSaT, but realized that it would be useless against Cell. I think USSj is more of a cheap that you can do, once you've achieved a certain level of power as a super saiyan. I guess Vegeta's and more so Trunks mistake was to put to much faith in it. I don't think that learning what they did would hinder them when it comes to learning what Goku did. The problem is Vegeta is so dam inpatient, I don't seem him trying to eat a meal in super saiyan. If he isn't doing one finger push ups then it isn't training!

[Li'l Lemmy]

Although I'm not sure I agree that USSj and MSSj are so different that it would involve a total backtrack.

I tend to think that it does. Think about it.

During that first year, Vegeta's focus was on forcibly calling up as much power as he could and concentrating it all into massive USSJ stages-- to become as impossibly destructive a Super Saiyan as he could. He didn't have to worry about controlling the power increase so much as amassing and utilizing it.

During the second year, it would be the complete opposite: Now he has to take all that ZOMG power and maximize his control over it rather than merely use it. What's more, we're talking about controlling every single bit of it. Vegeta can't just go straight to USSJ and try to control that-- he'd hafta go back to regular ol' Super Saiyan, with it's "lightly overexcited" feeling, and completely master just that basic level of power to the point of total comfort and ease before he could even ATTEMPT to bring anything higher under its control. Now, rather than just using more and more power, it's like trying to capture lightning in a bottle instead. So essentially, he'd be starting over from scratch.

"Full Power" Super Saiyan isn't just about how much power a Saiyan can call up; it's the veritable antithesis of transforming. Rather than maximizing the power into something as draining as USSJ, the idea is to be able to gradually become accustomed to levels of USSJ and beyond without forcing another "higher" transformation. Once a Saiyan learns how to do that, the power comes naturally without the draining side-effects.


~Da Lemmy

[BrollysKin]

I would submit, that while in the end the USSj forms were clearly shown to be inferior to that of the MSSj form, they were not completely without benefits.

Besides the downgrade in speed as well as insane amounts of body stress, there is a significant rise in power (especially in USSj2). I would say that USSj(1) was in fact beneficial while UUSj(2) was obsolete if not just for the extreme loss of speed.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I would say that USSj(1) was in fact beneficial

Depending on your opponent, yeah; USSJ1 had at least some benefit. This was clearly demonstrated in the fight between Vegeta and Imperfect Cell (2nd Form).

Even USSJ2 could have conceivable use, though, so long as the user isn't required to move very fast or at all. I don't imagine that it would have been too difficult for Vegeta to tap into the USSJ2 power-up while prepping his Final Flash in that motionless stance, for example-- the idea was that that Cell wouldn't move either, so nothing would have stopped him from calling up the extra power for that one attack had he tried.


~Da Lemmy

[BrollysKin]

Yeah thats pretty much what I meant, you probably just worded it better than me.

[Maphisto86]

Vegeta's RoSaT training, however, takes place after "zenkai" is no longer applicable to the Saiyan physiology, so of course he won't make the massive gains training alone that Goku did in training the same way.

Sorry to go a little off-topic, but I thought that receiving "zenkai's" after a brutal battle was a basic element of Saiyan physiology? How would it disappear or become obsolete?

Anyway, concerning the main topic, this question has bothered me ever since I first saw this in the anime. I think that Vegeta maybe did not follow Goku and Gohan's example because he was too proud. It's probable that the Saiyan prince was simply too embarrassed to admit that Son Goku devised a better way of training then he did. So much so that he was not willing to become stronger. Vegeta seems like the type to value his pride then power (at least up to the latter Buu Saga).

Trunks however, wouldn't let pride stand in his way. I theorized that maybe he wouldn't follow Son Goku and Gohan's example simply to respect his father's fierce pride. We all know he kept his true power hidden from Vegeta during their first encounter with Perfect Cell for that reason. However, Trunks does not seem to be willing to risk the future just so that his daddy's feelings won't be hurt. Trunks did fight Vegeta to try to prevent Cell from becoming "Perfect". So I am stumped as to why Trunks did not try to become used to his SSJ form in order to better compete in the Cell Games.

2) From what I've come to understand about them, Goku and Gohan's "Mastered" Super Saiyan and Vegeta and Trunks' "Ultra Super Saiyan" are polar opposites. In that they both try to tap into and gain more power (arguably SSj2's power), but go about it in completely different ways.

MSSj focuses on relaxing the body and allowing it to become accustomed to Super Saiyan's power, allowing you to then get more out of your training as a Super Saiyan and gain more power naturally. USSj, on the other hand, is all about forcibly pumping more power into your body than it's really ready for, which causes a lot of stress.

That said, to go for MSSj, Vegeta would have a LOT of "backtracking" to do. He'd essentially have to forget everything he learned and achieved during his first stay in the room. After that, he's already got a lot more Super Saiyan power to become accustomed to, but it's not clear whether that power would be a help or a hindrance in the long run.

I have to say that I like that theory. We do see how Vegeta pushes himself too hard. In fact I think Vegeta's true weakness throughout the series is not physical but psychological. He only realizes this near the end of the battle with Majin Buu. Trunks on the other hand seems more sensible then his father but it is also possible that he too is pushing himself too hard but not for selfish reasons like Vegeta, but rather to live up to his promise to protect the past.

It seems that, in conclusion, the two father and son teams took different paths in a fork on the road to achieving power "beyond Super Saiyan". One being the philosophy of raw power, of trying to push your body to the limit. The other, of testing your limits carefully and then breaking them when you are fully prepared. Son Goku's idea of mastering the Super Saiyan form is kinda Zen, don't you think? He may come off as a bit dumb for most of the series, but Son Goku does know how to fight.

[Kaboom]

Vegeta's RoSaT training, however, takes place after "zenkai" is no longer applicable to the Saiyan physiology, so of course he won't make the massive gains training alone that Goku did in training the same way.

Sorry to go a little off-topic, but I thought that receiving "zenkai's" after a brutal battle was a basic element of Saiyan physiology? How would it disappear or become obsolete?

Because while zenkais played such a massive role in the story up until then, they completely disappeared after Super Saiyan was introduced. The story implied as such, and one of the non-Daizenshuu guidebooks from Shueisha even said so. It seems likely that the two were a means to an end, with Super Saiyan actually being the "end goal" of the zenkai system.

[Maphisto86]

Vegeta's RoSaT training, however, takes place after "zenkai" is no longer applicable to the Saiyan physiology, so of course he won't make the massive gains training alone that Goku did in training the same way.

Sorry to go a little off-topic, but I thought that receiving "zenkai's" after a brutal battle was a basic element of Saiyan physiology? How would it disappear or become obsolete?

Because while zenkais played such a massive role in the story up until then, they completely disappeared after Super Saiyan was introduced. The story implied as such, and one of the non-Daizenshuu guidebooks from Shueisha even said so. It seems likely that the two were a means to an end, with Super Saiyan actually being the "end goal" of the zenkai system.

I heard about this before and I figured it came from the Daizenshuu. I wonder why that happens? You would think it would serve the Saiyan's better if both SSJ power and the ability to get stronger after battle or injury, where combined. Not having a Daizenshuu in front of me, I will postulate anyway that the power up's where still present but where negligible when compared to transforming into a Super Saiyan. Of course Son Goku and the other's do become stronger over time in their base forms anyway as is shown in the Son Goku v.s. Uub battle.

[mAcChaos]

Cell had a zenkai... That's way past Super Saiyan.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Cell had a zenkai... That's way past Super Saiyan.

I was going to bring this up at some point, having wondered about it myself.

My guess is that Cell had been designed to specifically utilize that effect of the Saiyans' cellular makeup despite having been far beyond Super Saiyan (even in his Incomplete form). It's certainly a unique strength worthy of "the greatest fighters of the universe"-- Dr. Gero had probably studied this element throughout Goku's various battles and decided to make it permanent.


~Da Lemmy

[Akira]

Vegeta only states that they seem so calm as Super Saiyans, but Goku never specifically mentions how he did it. For all we know Vegeta might think that Goku achieved it by surpassing the Ascended state somehow and has no clue how to actually do it. I just wanted to throw that into the discussion.

I would also like to point out that the benefit of a sparring partner is not soley that the act of fighting someone else that brings larger gains in and of itself. It is also likely combined with the fact that being able to test strength and new abilities before actual life and death combat ensues allows them to realize potentially fatal errors well in advance and find ways to correct them sooner. One may not realize such things soon enough training alone. I honestly think that was the larger gain out of Goku and Gohan training directly with each other.

Goku realized right away that Ascended Saiyan was way too slow. Gohan is excited when Goku does it, but Goku realizes instantly that it has no positive battle outcome. He had been fighting with Gohan that whole time and the obvious was too obvious instantly. Gohan was fighting with Goku, and his gains came incredibly quick due to fighting someone so powerful, yet not having his life threatened by it. Goku realized at some point that even Gohan had surpassed him, but said nothing. That was his ace in the hole, although he didn't account for Gohan not having his same lust for combat and thus not knowing how to effectively use it right away.

[Snail]

I was always under the impression that Vegeta wanted to create his own method instead of trailing the exact footprints Goku left behind.

[JulieYBM]

It makes one wonder if Vegeta ever did master SSj, espicially by the Boo arc. He didn't seem to have much trouble holding the form there, and his aura wasn't always flared, either.

[Maphisto86]

I think it is safe to assume that Vegeta did master the Super Saiyan form otherwise I doubt he would have been able to move on to SSJ2. Then again we only seem him as a Super Saiyan briefly before the tournament in the Buu saga and it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between SSJ and USSJ.

Vegeta only states that they seem so calm as Super Saiyans, but Goku never specifically mentions how he did it.

In the dub, Vegeta does know how Son Goku and Gohan achieved their calm SSJ state and berates himself for not thinking of it before his rival. Is this yet another script mistake/change or what? Does anyone have that episode on DVD?