Vegeta's second year in the RoSaT

[Li'l Lemmy]

I'm the OP twice in a week. Sheesh, that's unheard of.

Okay. So I don't get this.

Vegeta and Trunks went into the Room of Spirit of Time first and reached the USSJ levels. While they're off dealing with Cell, Goku and Gohan take their year to train and go the route of Full Power SSJ.

Both Vegeta and Trunks considerably disappoint Cell, and both are considerably impressed by what the Goku/Gohan duo achieved during their training in the RoSaT. Vegeta in particular took definite notice of the advantage of "mastering" the form.

Vegeta takes a second year in the RoSat, while Goku declines.

So here's my problem. According to Trunks, it only took Vegeta some two months out of the first year to overcome the "Super Saiyan wall". So if Goku never entered the RoSaT for a second time while Vegeta went back in knowing exactly what Goku did, shouldn't Vegeta have easily surpassed or at least matched Goku's strength in a year's time? Why does he watch Goku's full power fight with such awe and admit being surpassed again when he had a whole extra year to level up on him?

It's never implied that he took the same route and mastered Full Power. So what the hell was Vegeta doing in there that he's still so far behind?


~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

It's never implied that he took the same route and mastered Full Power.

Well, here's the thing. It was never implied either way, but Vegeta's not stupid. Once he saw what Goku could do by taking that route, it's pretty likely he'd shoot for it himself, especially after his "USSj" stage proved useless. However, there's two major things that might have, or rather likely, held him back, despite the extra time he took.


1) Vegeta doesn't play well with others. It's common fact in the DragonBall world that training WITH someone nets you much better gains than training alone. For all intents and purposes, Vegeta pretty much ignored Trunks during their first stay in the room and worked alone.

If the two had actually cooperated and worked together the way Goku and Gohan did, I'm sure they would have come out MUCH better off because of it. The same applies for Vegeta's second trip. He worked on his own, and so he probably didn't get as much out of it as he could have.


2) From what I've come to understand about them, Goku and Gohan's "Mastered" Super Saiyan and Vegeta and Trunks' "Ultra Super Saiyan" are polar opposites. In that they both try to tap into and gain more power (arguably SSj2's power), but go about it in completely different ways.

MSSj focuses on relaxing the body and allowing it to become accustomed to Super Saiyan's power, allowing you to then get more out of your training as a Super Saiyan and gain more power naturally. USSj, on the other hand, is all about forcibly pumping more power into your body than it's really ready for, which causes a lot of stress.

That said, to go for MSSj, Vegeta would have a LOT of "backtracking" to do. He'd essentially have to forget everything he learned and achieved during his first stay in the room. After that, he's already got a lot more Super Saiyan power to become accustomed to, but it's not clear whether that power would be a help or a hindrance in the long run.

Either way, it's gonna take Vegeta a while. Probably longer than the amount of time he had left in the room. We never saw him use anything that was distinctly Ultra Super Saiyan at the Cell Games (only time he transformed at all, if I remember, was to blitz Cell after Trunks' death). So I like to assume he never got to finish his MSSj training, and was only "halfway there" at the Cell Games, after which he completed that training and achieved Super Saiyan 2 during the 7 years of peace.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Well, here's the thing. It was never implied either way, but Vegeta's not stupid. Once he saw what Goku could do by taking that route, it's pretty likely he'd shoot for it himself, especially after his "USSj" stage proved useless. However, there's two major things that might have, or rather likely, held him back, despite the extra time he took.

He's not stupid, no, which is why I'm having so much trouble understanding any of this.

1) Vegeta doesn't play well with others. It's common fact in the DragonBall world that training WITH someone nets you much better gains than training alone. For all intents and purposes, Vegeta pretty much ignored Trunks during their first stay in the room and worked alone.

If the two had actually cooperated and worked together the way Goku and Gohan did, I'm sure they would have come out MUCH better off because of it. The same applies for Vegeta's second trip. He worked on his own, and so he probably didn't get as much out of it as he could have.

That's true; I'd forgotten all about that. Come to think of it, Vegeta trained by himself for the entire duration of that arc-- during the three years' preparation for the Artificial Humans' arrival right up through to the day of the Cell Games, he never bothered with anybody, even when they bothered with him (like in Trunks' case).

Still, that explains about half of it right there. Goku trained with Gohan the whole time, with both of them reaping the benefits of a sparring partner, while Vegeta trained solo and probably got about half out of his training that Goku and Gohan got out of theirs. Vegeta did just about everything he could right up until that first year was over, while Goku and Gohan reached those same stages and still found themselves with extra time to train even more to backtrack and develop the "Full Power" concept-- maybe even as much as half a year's worth, given how much they had accomplished upon exiting.

2) From what I've come to understand about them, Goku and Gohan's "Mastered" Super Saiyan and Vegeta and Trunks' "Ultra Super Saiyan" are polar opposites. In that they both try to tap into and gain more power (arguably SSj2's power), but go about it in completely different ways.

The way USSJ goes about it is something of a failure, and I like to think that as a Saiyan learns to master the Full Power stage (and especially when he taps into stages even further beyond), those "middle" stages gradually disappear. I think that was the whole point of what Goku and Gohan did in the RoSaT-- to be able to access that same power in a way alternative to the excessive drain of those USSJ states.

MSSj focuses on relaxing the body and allowing it to become accustomed to Super Saiyan's power, allowing you to then get more out of your training as a Super Saiyan and gain more power naturally. USSj, on the other hand, is all about forcibly pumping more power into your body than it's really ready for, which causes a lot of stress.

Yeah, that.

That said, to go for MSSj, Vegeta would have a LOT of "backtracking" to do. He'd essentially have to forget everything he learned and achieved during his first stay in the room. After that, he's already got a lot more Super Saiyan power to become accustomed to, but it's not clear whether that power would be a help or a hindrance in the long run.

Either way, it's gonna take Vegeta a while. Probably longer than the amount of time he had left in the room. We never saw him use anything that was distinctly Ultra Super Saiyan at the Cell Games (only time he transformed at all, if I remember, was to blitz Cell after Trunks' death). So I like to assume he never got to finish his MSSj training, and was only "halfway there" at the Cell Games, after which he completed that training and achieved Super Saiyan 2 during the 7 years of peace.

He also transformed to fight against the Cell Juniors.

I'm starting to see it all a little better now, though. With all that backtracking, and because he insisted on doing it all by himself, he probably didn't have the time to complete the Full Power training after all.

But if that's the case, then one question remains. When he exits the room for that second time, he looks so damned confident. Forget the actual Cell Games-- didn't Goku give a brief display of his power to Karin-sama before Vegeta had the chance to take his second year? Wasn't that power-- by Goku's own confirmation, only half of his full ability-- enough to piss off Vegeta?

Just what was it that Vegeta shooting for when he went back into the room? What he felt then, or something higher still?




~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

The way USSJ goes about it is something of a failure, and I like to think that as a Saiyan learns to master the Full Power stage (and especially when he taps into stages even further beyond), those "middle" stages gradually disappear. I think that was the whole point of what Goku and Gohan did in the RoSaT-- to be able to access that same power in a way alternative to the excessive drain of those USSJ states.

I think the same way. USSj is a failed, inferior method of accessing that SSj2 and beyond power. Once you gain it the way you should, they'd logically disappear. You don't, or even can't, "force" your body to tap into that power any more. It comes naturally and easily now.

He also transformed to fight against the Cell Juniors.

Ah yeah, forgot about that. Silly me. Still, no distinct signs of USSj then, either. From either him OR Trunks, I believe.

But if that's the case, then one question remains. When he exits the room for that second time, he looks so damned confident. Forget the actual Cell Games-- didn't Goku give a brief display of his power to Karin-sama before Vegeta had the chance to take his second year? Wasn't that power-- by Goku's own confirmation, only half of his full ability-- enough to piss off Vegeta?

Just what was it that Vegeta shooting for when he went back into the room? What he felt then, or something higher still?

What Goku showed off to Karin was only about half of his power. But Korin was the only one he informed of that little fact, and it was evidently still more than what Vegeta had. When Vegeta sensed that little powerup, he might have thought it was Goku's maximum. He didn't realize just how much untapped power Goku or Cell (or Gohan, but that's another story) actually still had to use.

So most people assume during his second stay in the room, he managed to exceed what he had sensed from Goku, incorrectly assuming he was now stronger than Goku or Cell. When the two of them went full-power during their match, Vegeta was shaking in his boots, obviously having been proven wrong.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Ah.

Yeah, Karin was the only one to know. But the way I've always thought of it, Vegeta wouldn't be stupid enough to take "only" that level of power at face value-- one has to assume that Vegeta's second year of training would tack on some sort of assumed multiplier to assure that he surpasses Goku no matter what, so Goku must have been hiding a helluva lot of power for Vegeta to think he had surpassed him only to find out during the Games that Goku was still ahead.


~Da Lemmy

[Rocketman]

I think Vegeta was rather close to Goku's full power at the Cell Games, maybe even 85% of it.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I think Vegeta was rather close to Goku's full power at the Cell Games, maybe even 85% of it.

If there's anything we've learned from "power levels" in DragonBall, it's that millions upon millions of battle power points aren't necessary to completely outclass your opponent-- even a small gap in power can mean a humiliating difference in ability. So I don't see anything invalidating your theory.


~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

...one has to assume that Vegeta's second year of training would tack on some sort of assumed multiplier to...

AAAAGH! That word, it burnses ussss...

But yeah, Goku was hiding a lot more power than Vegeta thought. He seemed confident he could easily beat him or Cell, but was proven wrong.

I think Vegeta was rather close to Goku's full power at the Cell Games, maybe even 85% of it.

That sounds reasonable. Still not nearly enough to take down Cell like he thought, though.

[mAcChaos]

Don't forget Cell wasn't even really near Goku's level but way beyond it... he was just pretending to be even with Goku.

[Li'l Lemmy]

AAAAGH! That word, it burnses ussss...

Well, I didn't mean multiplier as in a SSJ multiplier. Only as a "he's this strong, so I'll assume that he can raise his power this much more and surpass even that" sort of "multiplier".


~Da Lemmy

[MajinVejitaXV]

That said, to go for MSSj, Vegeta would have a LOT of "backtracking" to do. He'd essentially have to forget everything he learned and achieved during his first stay in the room. After that, he's already got a lot more Super Saiyan power to become accustomed to, but it's not clear whether that power would be a help or a hindrance in the long run.

Hm, I disagree. Goku doesn't even think about attempting to stay in SSJ form, which resulted in the Mastered/Full-Power SSJ form, until after Gohan had gone SSJ. I take it that they had probably exhausted half of their time in the room or so (since Trunks was almost done fighting Cell at the same point). So, let's say it took Goku and Gohan 6 months to master the FP SSJ form.

Sure, Vejita would have to start over to a degree, but he's only really lost 6 months compared to Goku (estimated). Plus, since he knows how they did it, it's not like he has to reinvent the wheel. You could argue that Vejita doesn't have the mental stability/calm to make FP SSJ work, but if he didn't then I could certainly see Trunks attaining it. Why neither did was always beyond me, especially with Trunks' reverence for Goku and Gohan (the latter having been his sensei in the future, which tends to show with regards to the respect he gives him even though he's just a child when Trunks comes back in time).

-Corey

[Kaboom]

I guess it came down to a matter of time, as well as that deal with him training alone. Even if he did work on getting towards MSSj, he wouldn't be able to do as much with it without a sparring partner.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I guess it came down to a matter of time, as well as that deal with him training alone. Even if he did work on getting towards MSSj, he wouldn't be able to do as much with it without a sparring partner.

Too bad he couldn't steal Piccolo's "split in two to create a sparring partner" trick ;p

Though, if he and Trunks went into the room together again, I can imagine how it'd go. Vejita testing all his new high-octane ki attacks on Trunks as revenge for the Cell/Jinzoningen mishap.

"Blast me into a lake, will you?! You little bastard!"

-Corey

[Li'l Lemmy]

A bit off-topic, but now that I'm thinking of it? I'm astounded by Vegeta's headstrong determination. With nine days before the Cell Games, didn't he intend to let Piccolo have the first day in the RoSaT in exchange for the remaining eight days? That means he was ready to train for an entire eight years in those harsh conditions.

Amazing.


~Da Lemmy

[Ex-Dubbie369]

That said, to go for MSSj, Vegeta would have a LOT of "backtracking" to do. He'd essentially have to forget everything he learned and achieved during his first stay in the room. After that, he's already got a lot more Super Saiyan power to become accustomed to, but it's not clear whether that power would be a help or a hindrance in the long run.

Well, I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate, as we clearly see that Goku has also been able to go USSj, but was still able to eventually become MSSj.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Well, I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate, as we clearly see that Goku has also been able to go USSj, but was still able to eventually become MSSj.

But Goku had the advantage of having Gohan for a sparring partner, so he would have reached the USSJ levels a fair shake faster than Vegeta did. It makes perfect sense that he would have had time left over to develop the Full Power concept.

Vegeta, meanwhile, trained alone, so he wasn't able to accomplish as much in that same amount of time.

Not to mention, the differences in their training methods widened that gap even more. Both Goku and Vegeta trained toward the same goal during that first year in the room, but the way Goku went about it and the fact that he had a sparring partner brought out a lot more power than Vegeta achieved by pushing it all into those USSJ levels.


~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

Well, I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate, as we clearly see that Goku has also been able to go USSj, but was still able to eventually become MSSj.

In addition to what Lemmy said, there's another big difference. Vegeta developed USSj very early on, and then kept going with it and using it. But when Goku achieved it, he realized, "Nah, this is no good," and then quickly abandoned it altogether. He never invested the time, effort, and power into USSj that Vegeta and Trunks did.

[Thanos6]

That would make an interesting What If; What If Vegeta was able to set aside his pride just long enough to take Mirai Trunks as his actual sparring partner, like Goku and Gohan did...

[omegacwa]

I guess everyone here forgot the massive power Gain that Goku got from training alone on his way to Namek, and one freaking "zenkai" after the Giynu battle.

The training alone theory just doesn't fly with me personally. Sure, training with someone can help a lot, but I don't think it's that much of a difference maker.

Her is the real reason Vegeta and Trunks didn't do Full power SSJ, they are not the main characters, end of story.

I am a huge Vegeta fanboy, and I hate that it makes no sense, but that's the reason.

[Conan the SSJ]

Too bad he couldn't steal Piccolo's "split in two to create a sparring partner" trick ;p

#18 may find that handy with Kuririn...

Interesting topic, you brought up some good points and questions, Lemmy. Vegeta does get far more time training in the RoSaT than Goku and Gohan, so it's odd that Goku was still so incredibly superior to him in the battle with Cell. He did get powerful enough to at least hold his own with a Cell Jr., even if it could pwn his Final Flash, and knock the wind out of Super Perfect Cell with his best attack. I'd say that qualifies him as pretty close to Goku's max. level at the time, though probably only enough that he'd get only a few good shots in if they were to battle.

Oh hey, waiting for another reply email. ^^;