How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[Super Vegetto]

Not realy lying. Like you sad for Gohan it also happend for SSJ3 Goku. Dramatic.

I mean Cell is dying for 2 pages in manga. All dramatic finish.

[dprez]

Against fat Boo, Goku told that he wasn't used to SSJ3, so I guess it wasn't long since he learned it in the afterlife. Against Gotenks-absorbed Boo, Goku goes SSJ3 pretty much instantly. Either that's because he "gotten used" to it after transforming once in the living world, or he practiced on the Kaioshins' planet.

I think he actually did, since he showed Gohan his ssj3.

I like the idea that Gohan was simply not used to ssj2. It was difficult for him to find the power after the 25th Budokai ssj2 appearance, for whatever reason, mental or physical. Dabura and Gohan's fight also seams far more likely to be of ssj1 level.

[012yArthur0]

Lol its first SSJ2 transformation is new saga. Ofc that AT will made some time for Gohans tranformation to look good.

"Dad and Vegeta must be fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so the damage is even greater!" He never says anything about himself fighting at such a level and contributing to that, which, some would say, makes it sound like he wasn't."

Level beyond Super Saiyan doesnt mean level Gohan achived.

Goku clearly says that he wont give energy to majin boo so he goes FPSSJ2 to finish Vegeta fast. Again why would Gohan hold back if Goku didnt whanted because of that situation.

They already knowed that Dabura is FP Perfect Cell level. Why would he hold back from start if one mistake in SSJ form could take his life, and its clearly that Dabura tryed to kill him. Only in anime it looks like Dabura is toying with Gohan. Vegeta in anime even says that he is toying and not actualy trying to kill him.

Goku vs Vegeta

Maybe because SSJ2 to SSJ diference in KI is far greater than Dabura to SSJ. Goku could get whooped fast if he was Super Saiyan. While in Dabra vs Gohan, Gohan, even at disvantage, could actually fight back.

Also, where did you found the statement of "Dabra has a Full Power Perfect Cell Ki?"

[hleV]

Also, where did you found the statement of "Dabra has a Full Power Perfect Cell Ki?"

Such statement doesn't exist. He just decided that it's a fact.

[Super Vegetto]

Lol its first SSJ2 transformation is new saga. Ofc that AT will made some time for Gohans tranformation to look good.

"Dad and Vegeta must be fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so the damage is even greater!" He never says anything about himself fighting at such a level and contributing to that, which, some would say, makes it sound like he wasn't."

Level beyond Super Saiyan doesnt mean level Gohan achived.

Goku clearly says that he wont give energy to majin boo so he goes FPSSJ2 to finish Vegeta fast. Again why would Gohan hold back if Goku didnt whanted because of that situation.

They already knowed that Dabura is FP Perfect Cell level. Why would he hold back from start if one mistake in SSJ form could take his life, and its clearly that Dabura tryed to kill him. Only in anime it looks like Dabura is toying with Gohan. Vegeta in anime even says that he is toying and not actualy trying to kill him.

Goku vs Vegeta

Maybe because SSJ2 to SSJ diference in KI is far greater than Dabura to SSJ. Goku could get whooped fast if he was Super Saiyan. While in Dabra vs Gohan, Gohan, even at disvantage, could actually fight back.

Also, where did you found the statement of "Dabra has a Full Power Perfect Cell Ki?"

I dont understand what you mean by Goku vs Vegeta but this is what Goku says :

I dont what to give any energy to Majin boo so i will finish this at my max power. If translation is not wrong this is correct and Gohan is SSJ2 because he knows in what situation is he.

When you compere character with other character you use full power from that character to compere him with lets say Dabura.

Kids compere Gotenks with Mystic Gohan and yet they could compere Base Gotenks or SSJ Gotenks with Mystic Gohan.
Its clearly compering SSJ3 Gotenks with Mystic Gohan.

[hleV]

I dont understand what you mean by Goku vs Vegeta but this is what Goku says :

I dont what to give any energy to Majin boo so i will finish this at my max power. If translation is not wrong this is correct and Gohan is SSJ2 because he knows in what situation is he.

Gohan may not have been able to go SSJ2 against Dabra because Kibito didn't restore his energy fully.

When you compere character with other character you use full power from that character to compere him with lets say Dabura.

Kids compere Gotenks with Mystic Gohan and yet they could compere Base Gotenks or SSJ Gotenks with Mystic Gohan.
Its clearly compering SSJ3 Gotenks with Mystic Gohan.

No. The kids compared Gohan to Super Gotenks (which is SSJ3 Gotenks) specifically, while Goku compared Dabra to Cell in unknown form. I'm not disagreeing that Goku may have actually meant FP Perfect Cell, but your arguments are simply invalid.

[Super Vegetto]

To tell the truth i dont care anymore. There is no proof that Gohan is not SSJ2 and that Gohan is cleary SSJ. This debate is pointless as far as i can see.

[Bussani]

You know, Goku also tells Trunks that he wasn't used to becoming a Super Saiyan at will until he practiced, yet he still pulled it off after powering down to base in front of Freeza. Not being used to it or it being harder doesn't necessarily mean that they absolutely can't transform quickly. It may depend on certain circumstances, state of mind, etc.

There is no proof that Gohan is not SSJ2 and that Gohan is cleary SSJ.

Of course not, but there's equally no proof that he was Super Saiyan 2. That's why this discussion never goes away.

This debate is pointless as far as i can see.

Pretty much. Like I said a few pages back, no matter which side of the debate you're on, both interpretations have logical flaws and contradictions, and both require some amount of explaining to work. It's amazing how well balanced the evidence for and against the two possibilities is, really.

[dprez]

It's amazing how well balanced the evidence for and against the two possibilities is, really.

I'm not so sure about that, but to each his own I suppose.

[012yArthur0]

Then let just call it a "plot-hole" and end this.

However, we can also take in account that SSJ can also power up, and it is not SSJ2.

[Bussani]

It's amazing how well balanced the evidence for and against the two possibilities is, really.

I'm not so sure about that, but to each his own I suppose.

Oh? Maybe I shouldn't ask and continue to perpetuate the discussion, but I'm curious about your opinion there. Personally, I think it's pretty balanced, but like I said, I'm still leaning towards Super Saiyan 1 at the moment. There are lines of dialogue that can be interpreted to support either; there's a guide that says one thing and a guide that says the other, but both guides arguably have mistakes in the same sections, leaving them on a rather even playing field. I think the thing that makes me lean the way I do is that the art is a lot harder to debate; as Super Vegetto has shown, it's possible to come up with explanations for it, but they're too much of a stretch for me to convince myself with. Maybe art isn't the most important thing, but in this situation, it feels like a tie-breaker to me.

[dprez]

I get what your saying, and I understand. But from what I can see and infer, Gohan was not at the level beyond super saiyan when he challenged Dabura and Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How did we manage go from the strength of Kaioshin & Piccolo, to Gohan vs Dabra, Gohan vs Cell, etc?

[Bussani]

I get what your saying, and I understand. But from what I can see and infer, Gohan was not at the level beyond super saiyan when he challenged Dabura and Boo.

Makes sense to me.

How did we manage go from the strength of Kaioshin & Piccolo, to Gohan vs Dabra, Gohan vs Cell, etc?

I'm not even sure. Normally I try to avoid going so off topic, but the person I was mostly replying to was the topic creator himself, so I figured it was okay.

[012yArthur0]

Because if they are answered, all the others will consequently answered aswell.

Call it "chain reaction".

[Godo]

Because if they are answered, all the others will consequently answered aswell.

Call it "chain reaction".

What follows, if the discussion goes wild, is usually the fusions' power, which ends with which form of Buu is the strongest. And then it repeats, often two or three times a year.
I like to console myself over this matter with that we on the Kanzenshuu forums have gotten a bit better at these topics. There are less insults and more facts. And that's something good.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

I just read the chapter 460, and then the Buu`s cocoon is full of energy, Kaioshin and Gohan are tremendously admired. And as Kaioshin says: Goku took so much damage in so little time to buu`s cocoon get so much energy so quickly. And Gohan says they are fighting a level that would "exceed" the level of Super Saiya-jin. And in chapter 462, after seeing Buu, Son Gohan says that if he can use his real strength, he would have a chance to defeat him (before Buu Kicks Dabra away). For me it is natural that Gohan is only level SSJ1 in the Babidi saga (except that moment in martial arts tournament -against Kibito).

To the topic....by power level:

Majin Vegeta = Goku SSJ2 >> Super Perfect Cell =/< Kid Gohan SSJ 2 >> Adult Gohan SSJ 2 > Dabra > Adult Gohan SSJ 1 >> Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Gohan

[Fox666]

Yes, there is some amazement about "the level beyond Super Saiyan" at that point, while when it comes to Gohan everybody is just "meh". There is also the question about nobody noticing the energy the cacoon gained from Gohan playing with Darbra, while Goku quickly all that was left fighting Vegeta. But I don't want to go off-topic about Gohan's form at the time.

[Super Vegetto]

I just read the chapter 460, and then the Buu`s cocoon is full of energy, Kaioshin and Gohan are tremendously admired. And as Kaioshin says: Goku took so much damage in so little time to buu`s cocoon get so much energy so quickly. And Gohan says they are fighting a level that would "exceed" the level of Super Saiya-jin. And in chapter 462, after seeing Buu, Son Gohan says that if he can use his real strength, he would have a chance to defeat him (before Buu Kicks Dabra away). For me it is natural that Gohan is only level SSJ1 in the Babidi saga (except that moment in martial arts tournament -against Kibito).

To the topic....by power level:

Majin Vegeta = Goku SSJ2 >> Super Perfect Cell =/< Kid Gohan SSJ 2 >> Adult Gohan SSJ 2 > Dabra > Adult Gohan SSJ 1 >> Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Gohan

He sad he could win, if he unleashes his true strenght ( anger ). Btw i am pretty sure he doesnt nead anger to go SSJ2.

[Piccolo Daimao]

There is also the question about nobody noticing the energy the cacoon gained from Gohan playing with Darbra

That was because it was a roughly even battle, and neither was taking that much damage (or, at least, equal damage). So whatever energy Boo's cocoon would've gained from that fight was probably little, as Bobbodi was expressing rage at Dabra not being able to hurt Gohan enough.