Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[Looneygamemaster]

Toei didn't demand Saban perfectly dub Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger when they licensed it. Saban turned it into Mighty Morphin Power Rangers with far more damage to the source material than Funimation ever did.

I don't know...when something is changed like that, I think it becomes its own thing. The thing with Funimation's dub of DBZ is that it was close enough to count as an English adaptation; it just happened to make the show worse. And when the source material is struggling just to stay "decent", it's a credit to Dragon Ball's appeal that the resulting show is watchable at all.

I just resent the idea that people who like that show are somehow "less of a fan" then the people who like the Japanese version.

[JulieYBM]

I'm gonna say this to you because (1) I like you and I hope you'll listen to me, (2) you remind me a bit of me maybe a decade/more ago, and (3) because dammit someone needs to.

You're getting out of control. This post exemplifies it. You're writing needlessly complex sentences. You're getting incredibly rude. You're getting incredibly condescending. I'm not reading your posts anymore. No-one is. There's no humility anymore. It's painfully faux-dramatic. There's not even the slightest twinge of humor in there to at least hang onto for some kind of irony. You don't add anything to these discussions anymore. There's no hint of enjoyment for the franchise. It's just principle after principle with no love.

It's awful. I can't do it anymore, Jacob. I just can't. Don't go down this route. I can tell you from experience you don't want to do it.

I half wrote two different replies to this post but they both wound up being faux-dramatic anyway. I don't know what to say because whatever explanation I have to give is just going to be my self-justification and that's precisely what has landed me in this pickle.

[90sDBZ]

I just resent the idea that people who like that show are somehow "less of a fan" then the people who like the Japanese version.

This. If someone were to watch about 20-30 episodes of the Japanese version by casually following the show but never investing money into the series in any way, shape or form does that mean that they're still more of a fan than somebody who spends a small fortune buying the entire series on DVD just for the dub?

[Herms]

One thing to add in the Toei changes vs Funi changes discussion is that many of Funi's changes end up being bad/strange/ridiculous precisely because Funi only has the ability to alter the audio side of things, and can't create new visuals to go along with their script changes, and obviously can't control the long-term course of the series.

Case in point, in the Funi dub Vegeta described the previous Super Saiyan as being too primitive to control his power, and destroying himself as a result. This isn't at all a bad idea in itself, but because it's something Funi came up with, it can't be developed further. It sounds like foreshadowing, like we should expect similar self-destructive problems to crop up with Goku. But nothing like that happens in the original series, so it never does in the dub either, since Funi can't add in whole scenes.

Or there's how the Funi dub of the Saiyan arc describes Nappa as being the former leader of the Saiyan army, back before Planet Vegeta was destroyed. This isn't said in the original, so naturally when the Bardock special depicts Nappa's life back before the destruction of Planet Vegeta, it does not show him as leader of the Saiyan army. And the Funi dub of the Bardock, wildly inaccurate as it may be, still has to go along with this because Funi can't add in scenes of Nappa leading the Saiyan army.

Speaking of the Bardock special dub, Funi invents an entire little subplot about how the psychic Kanasssians had been preparing for the Saiyan invasion of their planet, which they had foreseen in their dreams. This is an interesting idea in principle, making use of the idea of the Kanassians having psychic powers, and giving them more depth than they had in the original. In practice though, all of this has to just be told by unseen characters talking to each other offscreen, so it hardly comes off very effectively.

If Toei had seen fit to make these changes in their anime adaptation of the manga, then they could have actually depicted them onscreen in added scenes. Which maybe still wouldn't have ended up very good, but it'd at least have made better use of these ideas than the Funi dub ever could, simply due to its limited nature as a dub.

[Ringworm128]

It doesn't follow that because Toei made changes from the manga that it's okay for Funimation to make changes for the English dub. There is not a line of logic there.

Toei made the show. Funimation is not dubbing the manga. They're dubbing the show. They have to stay loyal to the show regardless of inconsistencies the show has with the manga. And certainly it wasn't as though they improved the adaption of the manga by changing things so dramatically.

Says who? It really is "my big invisible rule book said so" logic. If you want an accurate dub that's fine, I generally prefer them to be accurate too. But stop acting like it's some official law or something that everyone has to follow.

[Gogeta 00]

“Gogeta 00 brings up a lot of great stuff diving into actual logic and emotionless (in a good way!) analysis. I wish I had it in me to debate more that way and with you. Like I said earlier, though, I just don't. It kills me, but I just don't. I find it detracts from my overall enjoyment of the franchise to do so (English dub discussions, that is), and I don't like doing the kind of stuff that makes me not enjoy it all. I always regret getting into it. Ya' know? I hope ya' know!”

Thanks a lot! I completely get it! It makes perfect sense to avoid delving into discussions, or discussing things in a certain way, that dull your enjoyment of the franchise.

“Gogeta 00, that was a lot that said a little.

You still cannot defend the position that a person is a fan of Dragon Ball Z, the 1989 TV series based on Akira Toriyama's manga, with faults and all, if they're a fan of the Funimation English dub that radically changes the show, even though the TV series makes changes from the manga. Toei created the show. Funimation didn't. Toei had to pad the story because it was catching up to the manga, Funimation didn't have to radically alter the script. The changes from the manga to the Japanese version anime were far more necessary than the changes from the Japanese version of the TV show to the English version of the TV show. My logic is far more sound, albeit not perfect, whereas your argument is just walls of text with the purpose of blinding me in a blizzard of terminology until I surrender.

I'm dismissive because your argument needs dismissing.”

Once again you are completely missing the point and making no attempt to fairly respond to what I am saying. You just keep responding by trying to attribute views to me that I am not endorsing and have even outrighted denied.

I am not at all trying to defend the position that a fan of the dub is a fan of the same thing as the original TV series. As I said at the outset I completely agree that a dub fan is not a fan of the original Dragon Ball anime.

What I am saying is that your argument for this conclusion is one which cannot be endorsed because it directly generates the conclusion that we cannot even qualify fans of the original as being Dragon Ball fans, a conclusion which I take to be ridiculous and therefore I reject your argument because it leads to that conclusion.

The only argument that I have presented is that your argument, as originally presented, does not help us at all to determine that a fan of the dub is not a fan of Dragon Ball, because it makes it impossible for us sub fans to call ourselves fans of Dragon Ball as well. You have not at all provided any response to this argument that I have provided against your argument. I don’t see how you could justify saying that this argument which I have presented needs to be dismissed without actually responding to it, that is, identifying a serious problem which makes it so that I am wrong to infer that your argument leads to the aforementioned ridiculous conclusion. You have done no such thing.
Again you are absolutely right that the changes were far more necessary in the Japanese version than in the dub. I would never disagree with you on that point. Although I do agree with VegettoEX that there are many ways in which Toei could have been more careful with their application of filler to the series. But this is all beside the point. As I said none of this helps us to get out of the hole that your argument put us into, it just helps us to feel better about some changes to the series than others.

“My logic is far more sound, albeit not perfect, whereas your argument is just walls of text with the purpose of blinding me in a blizzard of terminology until I surrender.”

Again this is nothing more than a petty straw man as was the first claim you made. What I have done is used actual logic to precisely analyze your original argument and show how it logically implies a ridiculous conclusion. I have adhered exactly to the laws of logic in my analysis. You attempt to refute all of the logical analysis I provide by saying that it is nothing more than a wall of text and dismissing all of the actual content. You accuse me of doing nothing more than trying to intimidate you with technical terminology so that you’ll surrender. This is not rhetoric, it is logical analysis. I am not out to win anything I am out to identify errors in reasoning so that we don’t reach a conclusion improperly. Furthermore you have misunderstood why I used the terminology I do. I used all of my terminology to be as logically precise and accurate as possible. I made my best attempt to explain it clearly so that familiarity with formal logic was not required to understand my post. Yet you try to portray it as if I am trying to blind you or mystify you with big words so that you’ll give up. This is all blatantly obvious straw manning. Not only does your obvious simplification not accurately represent my post at all, but you have not responded to anything. You haven’t even knocked down the straw man, you’ve just said that my argument has no content without providing any support or reason to think so.

I am actually using real logic to attack your argument. You are just resorting to a number of cheap rhetorical devices which are nothing more than simple fallacies which do not at all address anything in my argument. You are not at all justified in even claiming that your logic is sound unless you either come up with a way to avoid the undesirable conclusion that your logic would lead you to if it were sound or accepted that undesirable conclusion. Let alone in claiming that it is more sound than mine. Furthermore to say that one argument is “more” sound than another from a logical point of view makes absolutely no sense. Either the argument is valid with true premises in which case it is sound (which yours most likely isn’t) or it is not in which case it is not sound. There is no such thing as an argument being more sound than another.

My argument is supported by the actual rules of logical inference. Your response is supported by fallacies, that is, not supported at all.

[penguintruth]

Blah, blah, blah. You clearly have no case, stop trying to baffle me with bullshit. I want a debate, not a term paper. It's possible to make thorough, cogent points without a lot of ludicrous fluff. Being long winded doesn't make you intellectual if your entire point is complete nonsense.

Equating the differences between the Japanese original anime and the English dubbed version to the differences between the manga and the Japanese version of the anime as though it follows that the same line of logic is similar enough to make fans of the Japanese version of the show no more fans than the English dub fans is, on its face, absolutely fallacious.

What a ludicrous, transparent cry for attention.

I just resent the idea that people who like that show are somehow "less of a fan" then the people who like the Japanese version.

Whether your resent it or not, it's true. If the version of the show you're watching is barely the show at all, then you aren't a fan of the show. I don't see how I could possibly make myself any more clear.

[jjgp1112]

Blah, blah, blah. You clearly have no case, stop trying to baffle me with bullshit. I want a debate, not a term paper. It's possible to make thorough, cogent points without a lot of ludicrous fluff. Being long winded doesn't make you intellectual if your entire point is complete nonsense.

Equating the differences between the Japanese original anime and the English dubbed version to the differences between the manga and the Japanese version of the anime as though it follows that the same line of logic is similar enough to make fans of the Japanese version of the show no more fans than the English dub fans is, on its face, absolutely fallacious.

What a ludicrous, transparent cry for attention.

I just resent the idea that people who like that show are somehow "less of a fan" then the people who like the Japanese version.

Whether your resent it or not, it's true. If the version of the show you're watching is barely the show at all, then you aren't a fan of the show.

You could at least attempt to argue with him instead of dodging him with mean-spirited ways of essentially saying "tl;dr"

[penguintruth]

They're two dissimilar arguments because Toei and Funimation are not equals in the creation of the work in focus. You must temporarily leave aside the manga source, for the sake of arguing about the English dub of the anime. Toei created the show. Funimation is just some second-hand sales group. I'm certainly pleased they subtitled, dubbed, and distributed the show, but regardless of any discrepancies Toei made, they're welcomed to them (and yet can be criticized for them in a separate area of debate) because they made the show, whereas Funimation is not, as they had no hand in the show's creation. The most they should do is make it easy for people who speak English to watch the show, but without compromising the integrity of the work of art, regardless of its flaws. It's called having respect for the piece of work that transcends any legal permission. If they couldn't sell it in a way that honors that work, they shouldn't have taken it on as a product.

Any discrepancies between the manga and the TV show are a completely different case and cannot be leveled against or even fairly paralleled to criticism against the English dub's discrepancies. All of these things are not equal in weight. Being a fan of Funimation's drastically altered dub is not equal to me being a fan of the TV show due to its own alterations to the manga, because Funimation did not make the show.

[Herms]

What a ludicrous, transparent cry for attention.

Oh, the irony.

Anyway, penguintruth, would you knock it off please? All this vitriolic horse-hockey is against the rules, and it's getting old.

[Roland_ELoG]

I like watching Dragon Ball Z while I work on things.

It's my very favorite show.

[rereboy]

Being a fan of particular Dub of Dragon Ball doesn't make anyone less of a fan. Its a different version of the original anime, that's true, it may have mistakes, but its still Dragon Ball. A different version of the original version, but still Dragon Ball.

If a Japanese book is translated into english and the translation has some very big mistakes in the translation, but someone loves that book... isn't he still a fan of the book? Perhaps we can consider him more of a fan of the english version of the book, which is not the original version of the book... But its still that book, even with those mistakes in the translation.

Honestly, I think there's just differences in the preference of fans towards which versions they like best. Being a fan or not is not determined by what version of the show one prefers.

I, for example, like the manga way more than the anime, but its still just Dragon Ball to me. I just consider myself to have a preference towards that particular version, instead of the anime show.

[Adamant]

Gogeta00, the main flaw with your argument is how you keep ignoring the word "radically".

Your primary argument is, quote

1. "If a person is a fan of a version of Dragon Ball which includes changes which radically undermine the author's original story, then they are not a fan of Dragon Ball."

2. “A fan of the Japanese version of the Dragon Ball anime is a fan of Dragon Ball.”

Since there are such changes mentioned in (1) included in the Japanese version it is logically impossible for both (1) and (2) to be true at the same time.

As has already been brought up... Toei's adaptation doesn't "include changes which radically undermine the author's original story". It adapts practically every event from every panel of the manga, exactly as depicted. It quotes almost every bit of dialogue verbatim. Yes, it adds a number of new scenes to the proceedings, and there is the odd rewrite here and there, but it never "radically undermines" Toriyama's original. Yet your argument completely hinges on this being the case, despite you never actually arguing why it is so. That's where it all falls apart.

it could just as easily be argued that somebody who watches the Japanese anime but hasn't read the Manga isn't a fan of the true original and most pure Dragonball.

Well, yeah. I don't think you're going to find anyone who have ever claimed that Toei's anime adaptation is "the true original and most pure Dragonball".

But like Funimation, Toei got the rights to make money off of a franchise, and weren't told NOT to do certain things they did. Toei didn't demand Saban perfectly dub Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger when they licensed it. Saban turned it into Mighty Morphin Power Rangers with far more damage to the source material than Funimation ever did.

No one, be they fans of Zyu who dislike MMPR, fans of MMPR who dislike Zyu, or fans of both, consider the two "the same series". No one who loves MMPR and dislikes Zyuranger is going to take offense to being told "You're not a real fan of Zyuranger". He isn't. He agrees. He ever considered the thing he's a fan of to be "Zyuranger". Saban never damaged anyone's ideas or impressions of what Zyuranger was, they just made this new thing that no one, them included, have ever claimed to be Zyuranger.

Says who? It really is "my big invisible rule book said so" logic. If you want an accurate dub that's fine, I generally prefer them to be accurate too. But stop acting like it's some official law or something that everyone has to follow.

If you're going to consider the dub "the same thing as this other thing, just in a different language", then yeah, you're kind of obligated to do an actual accurate representation of it. This argument is silly.

If a Japanese book is translated into english and the translation has some very big mistakes in the translation, but someone loves that book... isn't he still a fan of the book? Perhaps we can consider him more of a fan of the english version of the book, which is not the original version of the book... But its still that book, even with those mistakes in the translation.

Depends. If his love for the book is defined by things that aren't actually in the book, but were accidentally added in a faulty translation, then... no, it's not really "still that book", and he's not a fan of "that book".

[90sDBZ]

I would actually class Toei's changes as being pretty radical. Like how they had Goku doing stuff that would be impossible in the Manga like hurting Buuhan and Buutenks when he should be an ant to them. One could argue that they had to add filler but there's no excuse for screwing with powerlevels and throwing consistency out the window. It's thanks to Toei we have people thinking that Goku could take Gohan. If we're going to be really strict about this "true fan" nonsense then somebody who watches the Japanese anime but hasn't read the Manga won't know that Gohan is the true strongest unfused character and thus they can't be considered a true Dragonball fan for being ignorant of this important detail. They can only be called a fan of Toei's screwed up and flawed Dragonball adaption and not Dragonball itself.

[rereboy]

Depends. If his love for the book is defined by things that aren't actually in the book, but were accidentally added in a faulty translation, then... no, it's not really "still that book", and he's not a fan of "that book".

By definition and nature, a different version of something will have differences compared to the original.

I don't really understand that concept of being something else entirely... By being a different version, by definition, it already is something different from the original version... Some versions may be very different from the original and some versions will be very close to the original... But its still Dragon Ball, its still just different versions... Trying to argue that its another series instead of a particular version of Dragon Ball doesn't make any sense to me...

Like I said, all that exists are preferences towards specific versions. No one is less of a fan for preferring a particular version of it, even if its not one very close to the original.

Trying to argue that "this is Dragon Ball" and "that isn't Dragon Ball" when one is the original and the other is a different version of the original just seems silly. They are both Dragon Ball, different versions of it. Just choose the one you prefer.

[Adamant]

I don't really understand that concept of being something else entirely... By being a different version, by definition, it already is something different from the original version... Some versions may be very different from the original and some versions will be very close to the original... But its still Dragon Ball, its still just different versions... Trying to argue that its another series instead of a particular version of Dragon Ball doesn't make any sense to me...

You can't compare "being forced to make certain sacrifices when translating due to inherent differences between two languages" and "axing 80% of the material, replacing it with material you created yourself, then rewriting the 20% you kept so it fits into the context of what you made yourself", say both involve making changes, and put them on the same level as far as "being the same thing as the original" is concerned. You just can't.

[rereboy]

I don't really understand that concept of being something else entirely... By being a different version, by definition, it already is something different from the original version... Some versions may be very different from the original and some versions will be very close to the original... But its still Dragon Ball, its still just different versions... Trying to argue that its another series instead of a particular version of Dragon Ball doesn't make any sense to me...

You can't compare "being forced to make certain sacrifices when translating due to inherent differences between two languages" and "axing 80% of the material, replacing it with material you created yourself, then rewriting the 20% you kept so it fits into the context of what you made yourself", say both involve making changes, and put them on the same level as far as "being the same thing as the original" is concerned. You just can't.

I'm not saying that a certain version closer to the original is not different from another version very distant from the original, nor am I saying that a certain version can't have much more merit than another version. But they are still editions of the same thing right alongside the original version. They aren't suddenly another show. THAT's what doesn't make sense.

You think a certain version of Dragon Ball is massively superior and has much more merit than another version of Dragon Ball? Great. I might even agree with you. But that doesn't mean one is Dragon Ball and the other is not. They are still different versions of the same thing. Heck, even remakes are versions of the same thing compared to the original, they aren't suddenly something else entirely just because they aren't the original, have many differences and we happen to not like them.

[Super Sonic]

Toei didn't demand Saban perfectly dub Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger when they licensed it. Saban turned it into Mighty Morphin Power Rangers with far more damage to the source material than Funimation ever did.

I don't know...when something is changed like that, I think it becomes its own thing. The thing with Funimation's dub of DBZ is that it was close enough to count as an English adaptation; it just happened to make the show worse. And when the source material is struggling just to stay "decent", it's a credit to Dragon Ball's appeal that the resulting show is watchable at all.

I just resent the idea that people who like that show are somehow "less of a fan" then the people who like the Japanese version.

Not to sound mean, but guys with those mindsets, really need to get laid.

[VegettoEX]

Not to sound mean, but guys with those mindsets, really need to get laid.

That doesn't further the conversation in any way, either. You're just dismissing an entire viewpoint without even attempting to understand or compromise with it, which leaves you absolutely no better than what you're dismissing yourself.

[Super Sonic]

I apologize EX. Reading this topic started to get to me a little.