The Cell Saga Is The Lowest Rated Saga?

[RandomGuy96]

On one hand, James Cameron Freeza is pointless. On the other, I think it's kinda needed, because it further subverts our expectations. Freeza goes from non-threatening but demonic looking, to much larger and more threatening, to flat-out grotesque and monstrous, before finishing with a small, slim, harmless looking form. I don't think the effect would be the same if you cut out the 3rd form. The 2nd form would just look like the odd one out.

[Saiga]

The Recoome beatdown was a rehash of Nappa, but I did like how Ginyu defeated Goku. The Freeza battle could have been made shorter too, cut out James Cameron Freeza.

I call him Cameron Freeza now instead of Ridley Scott Freeza because Aliens is just as famous as Alien even though its a sequel, and Toriyama seems to like Cameron films.

Ginyu was pretty great in general, but I think Goku just arrived too early which meant writing him out immediately and giving him an extremely questionable power up. Piccolo should have arrived before him, I think, and be the one to deal with the Ginyu Force. Also, a problem I have with Goku vs Freeza is that some of the best parts are just copied from the Vegeta battle, except without the teamwork elements majorly downplayed.

[Gaffer Tape]

Ooh, having Piccolo there to take care of the Ginyu would have been a much better idea. It drives me crazy how completely useless Piccolo ended up being in the Freeza arc. He might as well have not been there at all, yet there's all this build up for how amazing his strength is. The character of Nail seems to exist solely to give Piccolo a power-up. Then he gets to the battle... and accomplishes jack shit and just stands around in the background for the rest of the arc. At least having him there to fight the Ginyu would make him seem like he was there for a reason.

[RandomGuy96]

I only remember one part that was outright copied (Genki-Dama), and another that was just vaguely similar (Kaio-Ken Kamehameha). The fights with Vegeta and Freeza seemed pretty distinct, with the former focusing more on teamwork and unconventional tactics on both sides (e.g. power ball for Vegeta, Genki-Dama for Goku and co), and the latter being more of a good ol' one on one brawl with some strategy thrown in on both sides (e.g. Freeza nuking the planet, Freeza swooping around the Kamehameha to hit Goku with a barrier, Freeza nearly ending the fight with his Death Saucer, Goku getting Freeza to hit himself, Goku distracting Freeza with ki blasts then kicking him while he's off guard).

[Kid Buu]

Ginyu was pretty great in general, but I think Goku just arrived too early which meant writing him out immediately and giving him an extremely questionable power up. Piccolo should have arrived before him, I think, and be the one to deal with the Ginyu Force. Also, a problem I have with Goku vs Freeza is that some of the best parts are just copied from the Vegeta battle, except without the teamwork elements majorly downplayed.

Can't argue with this.

Burter has my favourite design but he never gets a solo battle, not even in the Tenshinhan filler!

I wouldn't have minded if Recoome died when Krillin made him eat his own attack, and then Burter got to beat up Gohan/Krillin instead.

[ABED]

I still don't get what people have against the fight against Freeza after Goku goes Super Saiyan. The fight finally becomes competitive.

No, it becomes a curbstomp in Goku's favor. Just not quite as much of a curbstomp as the second part of the fight, with KK x10/x20 Goku vs 50-70% Freeza.

It's hardly a curbstomp. The fight is pretty back and forth until toward the end. Goku does employ strategy, and breaks him down methodically. Are you saying the second half is more one sided than the first? I can't possibly see how.

Freeza didn't just deserve to lose by a hair's breadth, he deserved to have his world come crushing down on him.

[RandomGuy96]

I still don't get what people have against the fight against Freeza after Goku goes Super Saiyan. The fight finally becomes competitive.

No, it becomes a curbstomp in Goku's favor. Just not quite as much of a curbstomp as the second part of the fight, with KK x10/x20 Goku vs 50-70% Freeza.

It's hardly a curbstomp. The fight is pretty back and forth until toward the end. Goku does employ strategy, and breaks him down methodically. Are you saying the second half is more one sided than the first? I can't possibly see how.

Freeza didn't just deserve to lose by a hair's breadth, he deserved to have his world come crushing down on him.

It's a total curbstomp. The whole battle, Freeza gets in about 3-4 hits, while Goku gets in, what, 15-20? And by the end of the fight, Freeza's been cut in half and blown to bits, while Goku isn't even breathing hard.

The only instance of strategy on his part was when Freeza threw the Death Saucers. Other than that, he just pummeled Freeza and relied on his superior power level to win. Sometimes he'd even let Freeza hit him, because it's not like it'll do much damage anyway.

[ABED]

It's a total curbstomp. The whole battle, Freeza gets in about 3-4 hits, while Goku gets in, what, 15-20? And by the end of the fight, Freeza's been cut in half and blown to bits, while Goku isn't even breathing hard.

The only instance of strategy on his part was when Freeza threw the Death Saucers. Other than that, he just pummeled Freeza and relied on his superior power level to win. Sometimes he'd even let Freeza hit him, because it's not like it'll do much damage anyway.

Before the Genki Dama, what did Goku do to Freeza? The most he could muster was a slightly burnt hand.

Wrong about the strategy, Goku could've just killed him right off the bat after turning Super Saiyan, but he took everything Freeza had, even at full power. I didn't count the blows, and I don't remember what's in the manga vs what wasn't. In the anime they both got in plenty of shots. Part of Goku's strategy was letting Freeza reach full power because he felt the power would be too much for Freeza, which it was. He broke Freeza both physically and emotionally.

I didn't count the exact number of hits, but Freeza got in plenty.

[RandomGuy96]

It's a total curbstomp. The whole battle, Freeza gets in about 3-4 hits, while Goku gets in, what, 15-20? And by the end of the fight, Freeza's been cut in half and blown to bits, while Goku isn't even breathing hard.

The only instance of strategy on his part was when Freeza threw the Death Saucers. Other than that, he just pummeled Freeza and relied on his superior power level to win. Sometimes he'd even let Freeza hit him, because it's not like it'll do much damage anyway.

Before the Genki Dama, what did Goku do to Freeza? The most he could muster was a slightly burnt hand.

Wrong about the strategy, Goku could've just killed him right off the bat after turning Super Saiyan, but he took everything Freeza had, even at full power. I didn't count the blows, and I don't remember what's in the manga vs what wasn't. In the anime they both got in plenty of shots. Part of Goku's strategy was letting Freeza reach full power because he felt the power would be too much for Freeza, which it was. He broke Freeza both physically and emotionally.

I didn't count the exact number of hits, but Freeza got in plenty.

Bit his tail, elbowed him, kicked him in the face, punched him in the face causing him to bleed, burned and damage his body with a Kamehameha, kicked him through several mountains, and some other stuff. Then he badly damaged his body and even destroyed his tail with the Genki-Dama.

How is that a strategy? That's called being a battle hungry dumb shit. He explicitly said he just wanted to see the strongest guy in the universe at full power.

No, Freeza got in literally three or four. Unless you count the few times Goku sat there and LET Freeza attack him to no effect, but I don't see why you would.

[ABED]

Bit his tail, elbowed him, kicked him in the face, punched him in the face causing him to bleed, burned and damage his body with a Kamehameha, kicked him through several mountains, and some other stuff. Then he badly damaged his body and even destroyed his tail with the Genki-Dama.

Freeza was toying with him the entire time. That burn looked like little more than a second degree burn. Freeza also wasn't breathing hard.

How is that a strategy? That's called being a battle hungry dumb shit. He explicitly said he just wanted to see the strongest guy in the universe at full power.

No, that's not what he said. He wasn't doing it for the ego stroke. Goku wanted to punish Freeza for what he did. He was pissed off and wanted to break him mentally as well as physically. He wanted him to suffer for killing Kuririn.

No, Freeza got in literally three or four. Unless you count the few times Goku sat there and LET Freeza attack him to no effect, but I don't see why you would.

I didn't count, but it sure as hell wasn't four. Freeza also let Goku hit him. Freeza was several times stronger than Goku during the first half of the fight. Did you sit there with a counter?

Even if I agreed, there's no way the first half is more of a curb stomp than the second.

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza was toying with him the entire time. That burn looked like little more than a second degree burn. Freeza also wasn't breathing hard.

So toying fights don't count now? It doesn't matter if he could have done more, fact of the matter is that his body was still damaged and he still felt pain as a result of the battle.

No, that's not what he said. He wasn't doing it for the ego stroke. Goku wanted to punish Freeza for what he did. He was pissed off and wanted to break him mentally as well as physically. He wanted him to suffer for killing Kuririn.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”

And I'm still not seeing how "my power level is higher than yours so I'm gonna beat you up" is strategy.

I didn't count, but it sure as hell wasn't four. Freeza also let Goku hit him. Freeza was several times stronger than Goku during the first half of the fight. Did you sit there with a counter?

Even if I agreed, there's no way the first half is more of a curb stomp than the second.

Yep, it was. Double checked, just to make sure. An elbow, a kick, a chop, and that barrier attack. Unless, again, you're counting the blows that Goku let hit him to no effect.

Freeza never let Goku hit him. Him underestimating Goku caused him to get hit a few times, but he never just outright sat there and took blows head on to no effect like Goku did thrice.

[Saiga]

Ooh, having Piccolo there to take care of the Ginyu would have been a much better idea. It drives me crazy how completely useless Piccolo ended up being in the Freeza arc. He might as well have not been there at all, yet there's all this build up for how amazing his strength is. The character of Nail seems to exist solely to give Piccolo a power-up. Then he gets to the battle... and accomplishes jack shit and just stands around in the background for the rest of the arc. At least having him there to fight the Ginyu would make him seem like he was there for a reason.

Yeah, that's why I thought of it. Fixes the problem with Piccolo's involvement at the same time as avoiding a Saiyan arc rehash with Goku. Win win.

I only remember one part that was outright copied (Genki-Dama), and another that was just vaguely similar (Kaio-Ken Kamehameha). The fights with Vegeta and Freeza seemed pretty distinct, with the former focusing more on teamwork and unconventional tactics on both sides (e.g. power ball for Vegeta, Genki-Dama for Goku and co), and the latter being more of a good ol' one on one brawl with some strategy thrown in on both sides (e.g. Freeza nuking the planet, Freeza swooping around the Kamehameha to hit Goku with a barrier, Freeza nearly ending the fight with his Death Saucer, Goku getting Freeza to hit himself, Goku distracting Freeza with ki blasts then kicking him while he's off guard).

I think the Kaio-ken Kamehameha (and rush before it) is more than just vaguely similar. But those are the two parts I was talking about, I don't like much else out of the fight apart from Freeza's imprisonment ball technique and Goku's diversion kick (which I had forgotten about with the first point so thank you for bringing it up). I was also only talking about the pre-Super Saiyan part of the battle, I also liked the things with the barrier and the saucers.

I wasn't trying to say the whole fight wasn't distinct, it certainly is, but both of the "big" moments pre-Super Saiyan are too similar to the Vegeta fight for my liking.

[ABED]

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”

And I'm still not seeing how "my power level is higher than yours so I'm gonna beat you up" is strategy.

Okay, if you are going to dismiss contrary evidence a mere page before, this is no longer interesting. Seriously, your whole Goku is a screw up is getting tiresome. One page earlier, Goku yells at Kaio that he wants revenge for Kuririn. I don't know how you outright dismiss that other than it doesn't mesh without your view. I don't know how many times I can write he wanted to break Freeza and allowing him to reach his full power is part of that. He outright says what is reasons were, and he turned Super Saiyan because of Kuririn's death. I don't know how you dismiss that other than either your comprehension skills are deficient, or you willfully ignore it. Forget it, please don't respond.

[RandomGuy96]

. Okay, if you are going to dismiss contrary evidence a mere page before, this is no longer interesting. Seriously, your whole Goku is a screw up is getting tiresome.

Since you just nitpicked 1/3 of my post, resorted to insults, and didn't even post any quotes, should I assume you have no counter to most of what I said?

. One page earlier, Goku yells at Kaio that he wants revenge for Kuririn. I don't know how you outright dismiss that other than it doesn't mesh without your view. I don't know how many times I can write he wanted to break Freeza and allowing him to reach his full power is part of that. He outright says what is reasons were, and he turned Super Saiyan because of Kuririn's death. I don't know how you dismiss that other than either your comprehension skills are deficient, or you willfully ignore it.

Yet here, he also says he wants to do it to show off, see Freeza at his best (because he may never get this chance again), and test his new power in a fight. He later tells Freeza to train so they can have a rematch, which would presumably be more fun.

. Forget it, please don't respond.

No thanks.

[Kid Buu]

You can't just make a post arguing with someone and then tell them not to respond. That's just rude.

Anyway, here's what I like about the Cell Arc:
-Scenery is really refreshing given how bland Namek was.
-Android 19/20 and Imperfect Cell are really fun and creepy villains.
-Some fun battles: 19/Vegeta, 18/Vegeta, Cell/Trunks, Goku/Cell, & Krillin/Cell filler.
-Character development for Goku: First time he is in the Mentor position and passes the torc-oh nevermind.
-Character development for Vegeta: Has a breakdown at the Cell Games and realizes he's an idiot who will never fight-oh nevermind.
-More of Ensemble Cast feeling: Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta, and Piccolo have battles, Ten gets a cool moment, Krillin and Bulma do other things, and Yamcha becomes the first human to survive without internal organs.

[thatdbzguy]

Lame villains, OOC behavior, ass-pulls, poor plotting, and a general lack of polish

To be fair, that's all of DBZ, not just the Cell arc.

Can you name at least two out of character moments in the Saiyan arc?

Or the Freeza arc as well for that matter?

Piccolo all of a sudden giving a damn about training Gohan, Gohan not attacking Freeza right after he killed Dende, Gohan not attacking Freeza right after he killed Krillin, etc.

[VegettoEX]

. Forget it, please don't respond.

No thanks.

There is nothing OK about either of these posts. If you are looking to converse this way, you will need to find another community to do it in. Account strikes will be issued if this continues.

[Flame Dragon]

Piccolo all of a sudden giving a damn about training Gohan, Gohan not attacking Freeza right after he killed Dende, Gohan not attacking Freeza right after he killed Krillin, etc.

You know people are not robots that react the same way every time, right?
1) Piccolo trained Gohan to make him a weapon for world domination, just to spite Goku. The Saiyans were an obstacle on world domination, so they needed to be eliminated. Hence, the training of Gohan.
2) The only people that Gohan has shown to get consistently rage boosts out of them being in danger are: Piccolo, Goku and Videl (in the Boo Arc). Maybe add Chichi in the mix.
Gohan was very frightned by Freeza and paralyzed by fear, the only reason that he attacked Raditz, Nappa and Freeza was because he got a rageboost by Goku&Piccolo being in danger, (overcoming his fear because of rage) his father and mentor respectively. He knew Dende for a few days, while he knew Krillin for a lot longer, but not enough to risk his life, especially since he knew Freeza outmatched them in every way.

[Olympian]

No. Tambourine was the second most prominent villain of the arc, the Boss Rabbit thugs were nameless faceless thugs to a very minor villain who was gone after a few chapters. It's the difference between beating Nappa and beating a Saibaman

Now you are just nitpicking. And you know what they say about nitpicking.

Wouldn't be the first time the Daizenshuu made an odd call. Yamcha never won any fight with Goku; both battles ended with Yamcha fleeing and Goku standing. At best, he drew him twice.

They had three bouts, if you count them all. Yamucha clearly comes out in top in the first, moreso having it being stopped because of Bulma`s presence and nothing else. They draw equally in the second bout and Goku ends up on top in the third when he breaks Yamucha`s tooth and he leaves because of vanity.

In neither were they really down for the count, expect the first bout where Goku takes longer to get up (long enough for Yamucha and Oolong to Exchange words). Toryama himself writes Yamucha in the manga (Red Ribbon Army arc) claiming how "not long ago, we were equal" when talking about Goku`s improvement.

Would you really count Chi Chi as a major battle? It was a one-shot gag knockout. I guess you can count her if you really want to, but that just makes him look pathetic, if that's really his greatest solo victory

It`s okay, we can trade that one for Monkey mode Goku, whom Yamucha takes down by himself in the manga.

[baneofdemon22]

I like every arc better than the last, except for the Boo arc. So the Cell arc is my favorite overall in both the manga and anime. I have to change what I said before, because I was reading what others were saying and being that my memory isn't good, I got confused. I've actually changed my mind and think it's the perfect conclusion of the series after reading the manga. I'm going through Dragon Ball Z for the 8th time with Kai and I feel the same way now. Man, do I love this series! This and the Metal Gear franchise are little pieces of heaven to me!