Goku's New Form in Daima!

[JulieYBM]

lol gokuu trained for Super Saiyan 4. amazing.

Welp, guess Vegeta's going to train for it next.

[Hulk10]

lol gokuu trained for Super Saiyan 4. amazing.

Welp, guess Vegeta's going to train for it next.

I hope so. But I doubt it. DAIMA and DBH and DBSH did right by SSJ4.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Based on the dialogue it sounded like the transformation that Goku unlocked was incomplete until Neva used his magic because right after that training line Goku also says, " I wasn't sure if it would work, though "

My understanding of the situation is that Goku figured out he could indeed go further than 3, he just wasn't sure how to materialize that potential into a form yet. Daima takes place less than a year after the fight with Buu, so it's not surprising he didn't have all the facts yet.

[Issei189]

Based on the dialogue it sounded like the transformation that Goku unlocked was incomplete until Neva used his magic because right after that training line Goku also says, " I wasn't sure if it would work, though "

My understanding of the situation is that Goku figured out he could indeed go further than 3, he just wasn't sure how to materialize that potential into a form yet. Daima takes place less than a year after the fight with Buu, so it's not surprising he didn't have all the facts yet.

Your interpretation of this scene makes the most sense to me, so i agree with you.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Can we take a moment to appreciate just how powerful Ssj4 was presented in episode 20 ? This is by far the most powerful a form has been presented in since Ssj3 back in the Buu arc. We were told that Ssj4 in GT was stronger than Ssj3, and we were told how strong Super's forms were, but they never did anything that made them feel strong. Daima's Ssj4 talks the talk and walks the walk. This feels like the true next great transformation after Ssj3.

[BernardoCairo]

I partially agree.
That's true for most of the forms, but they did show us just how powerful Ultra Instinct is (both in the Tournament of Power and the Moro Arc). There's a reason Ultra Instinct and its theme became so synonymous with strength and power online, even outside the Dragon Ball community.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

They did show us just how powerful Ultra Instinct is (both in the Tournament of Power and the Moro Arc). There's a reason Ultra Instinct and its theme became so synonymous with strength and power online, even outside the Dragon Ball community.

Did UI ever do anything as crazy as blast a Kamehameha through three worlds ? I do agree that MUI is the strongest of the group I listed, but it still doesn't feel as strong as this new Ssj4.

[BernardoCairo]

It defeated Jiren, who effortlessly dominated everyone in the Tournament of Power. The form also shook the World of Void and took down a fusion, even while Goku was exhausted. Then, during the Moro Arc, it destroyed Moro, who had absorbed the power of multiple planets and fused with 73. At one point, Goku even broke his arm simply by tightening his abs. This form grants the user instant dodging and attacking, making it inherently overpowered.

[JulieYBM]

They did show us just how powerful Ultra Instinct is (both in the Tournament of Power and the Moro Arc). There's a reason Ultra Instinct and its theme became so synonymous with strength and power online, even outside the Dragon Ball community.

Did UI ever do anything as crazy as blast a Kamehameha through three worlds ? I do agree that MUI is the strongest of the group I listed, but it still doesn't feel as strong as this new Ssj4.

These things aren't even consistent in the 1984 manga, let alone between the anime. It's not something to make a big deal out of.

[BernardoCairo]

By the way, someone was discussing the connection between Super Saiyajin 3 and Super Saiyajin 4 in Daima. I believe one is simply an evolution of the other. Goku knew he could eventually achieve Super Saiyajin 4, much like he was aware of Super Saiyajin 2 back in the Androids Arc. Neva just helped him reach that point.

It's funny because Super Saiyajin 3 and Super Saiyajin 4 don't really resemble each other.

[TobyS]

So Goku says he trained for the form but wasn't sure it would work.
I feel like he sensed it's existence but was never able to trigger it before.

Nevah does some shit to him and now he can work it for an hour or so afterwards.

Presumably that wears off, or needs a tail or being in the demon realm or some combination of the three, and he can't use it again before bog and beyond and it's then surpassed by god anyway.
Even if he had it he could have just been koed before getting to use it.

And kibito and shin just fuse again at some point between daima and bog.

Nothing precludes those two things happening/being true.

I feel like idiot fans saying this breaks continuity and decanonises super just didn't like super and were looking for a trumped up charge.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I feel like idiot fans saying this breaks continuity just didn't like super and were looking for a trumped up charge.

You're literally turning yourself into a pretzel to make Daima and Super connect to one another. Ssj4 does not wear off, it does not need a tail, and Goku does not need to be in the demon realm to use it. Not a single one of these was ever hinted at, much less stated. Toriyama ignored Super; it's as simple as that.

[Sani007]

Toriyama ignored Super; it's as simple as that.

That’s exactly right. And what’s strange to me is how quickly I let go of the Super era (2008–2025). Even though I genuinely loved both the TV series and the manga, after Daima, I just wouldn’t be able to rewatch the disastrously weak animation in DBS. And honestly, I have no interest in “dumb Goku” anymore either.

I’m glad that in terms of animation, Dragon Ball finally replaced the unfit artist (Yamamuro) and that we’ve since gotten character designers who truly do this amazing franchise justice—(Shintani, Kubota, Nakatsuru).

The next step is for the Dragon Ball manga to also get an artist worthy of it.
Goodbye, Toyotarou. You have my respect, but we need a greater talent.

[TobyS]

I feel like idiot fans saying this breaks continuity just didn't like super and were looking for a trumped up charge.

You're literally turning yourself into a pretzel to make Daima and Super connect to one another. Ssj4 does not wear off, it does not need a tail, and Goku does not need to be in the demon realm to use it. Not a single one of these was ever hinted at, much less stated. Toriyama ignored Super; it's as simple as that.

He went out if his way to mention universe 7 and cameo gowasu and the others which you wouldn't do if you deliberately wanted a clean slate.

It's not twisting anything , he gets juiced up by a dude who has insane magic skills and uses the form only then. And then never uses it again.
The most obvious answer is he can't use it later. rather than toriyama wanted to retcon out and entire series and several movies including his recent favourite super hero but also never explicitly clarified that apparently deliberate intention.

Toriyama wanted to destroy like a decade of his work but never expressed that intention is a far greater assumption then the form was conditional.

“fans” have such a shit attitude of their own franchises these days.
Back in the old days marvel fans used to write in and explain away continuity errors and get awarded a no-prize.
Nowadays fans just want to piss and moan about the shit they claim to enjoy, while also assuming anything with perfectly valid explanations that aren't spoon fed and spelled out are actually plot holes.
Count me out of that shit.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

It's not twisting anything , he gets juiced up by a dude who has insane magic skills and uses the form only then. And then never uses it again. The most obvious answer is he can't use it later.

We literally saw Goku power up to the form on his own after being turned back into an adult. He later tells Vegeta that it was something he was working on for the past year, but he wasn't sure how to trigger it. Ssj4 was not a one time thing, that's a completely made up theory to tie this into Super.

[TobyS]

It's not twisting anything , he gets juiced up by a dude who has insane magic skills and uses the form only then. And then never uses it again. The most obvious answer is he can't use it later.

We literally saw Goku power up to the form on his own after being turned back into an adult. He later tells Vegeta that it was something he was working on for the past year, but he wasn't sure how to trigger it. Ssj4 was not a one time thing, that's a completely made up theory to tie this into Super.

He was working on it. In the same way the cell saga saiyans were training to surpass super saiyan and sensed something was out there.

He never said he transformed into it before.
Nothing said he wasn't still under the influence of what Nevah did his adult body just allowed him to turn it back on more easily.

Regardless if he did have it it wouldn't help against beerus and he immediately gets god forms.

Worst case scenario the one line of dialogue in the super manga bog arc about 3 being his final form is wrong. Otherwise it was temporary or not worth using before being replaced by god.

[The Monkey King]

Nothing said he wasn't still under the influence of what Nevah did his adult body just allowed him to turn it back on more easily.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that he was still under the influence of what Nevah.

Worst case scenario the one line of dialogue in the super manga bog arc about 3 being his final form is wrong.

That's not the worst case scenario, that is the scenario if you're not doing mental gymnastics.

“fans” have such a shit attitude of their own franchises these days.
Back in the old days marvel fans used to write in and explain away continuity errors and get awarded a no-prize.
Nowadays fans just want to piss and moan about the shit they claim to enjoy, while also assuming anything with perfectly valid explanations that aren't spoon fed and spelled out are actually plot holes.
Count me out of that shit.

Content slop consoomers like you are so strangely defensive. Sorry if fans taking a more critical look at what they like triggers you.

[super michael]

Can we take a moment to appreciate just how powerful Ssj4 was presented in episode 20 ? This is by far the most powerful a form has been presented in since Ssj3 back in the Buu arc. We were told that Ssj4 in GT was stronger than Ssj3, and we were told how strong Super's forms were, but they never did anything that made them feel strong. Daima's Ssj4 talks the talk and walks the walk. This feels like the true next great transformation after Ssj3.

GT SSJ3 Goku couldn't even hurt Bebi Vegeta, while Bebi Vegeta normal attack KO him even with his tail out.
GT SSJ4 was able to tank every single attack from Bebi Vegeta, which includes his Revenge Death Ball. SSJ4 Goku had the power to easily kill Bebi Vegeta, but he didn't want to kill Vegeta body.

So I believe they did show the big power increase properly in GT. SSJ4 Goku was stronger than Super Oozaru Bebi Vegeta, showing there is a big power increase from Super Oozaru to SSJ4.

So Goku says he trained for the form but wasn't sure it would work.
I feel like he sensed it's existence but was never able to trigger it before.

Nevah does some shit to him and now he can work it for an hour or so afterwards.

Presumably that wears off, or needs a tail or being in the demon realm or some combination of the three, and he can't use it again before bog and beyond and it's then surpassed by god anyway.
Even if he had it he could have just been koed before getting to use it.

And kibito and shin just fuse again at some point between daima and bog.

Nothing precludes those two things happening/being true.

I feel like idiot fans saying this breaks continuity and decanonises super just didn't like super and were looking for a trumped up charge.

In DBS anime they specifically say that Goku can't use UI after the ToP. In DBS Broly movie Goku fails to use UI, we only see him turn white for a second. In DBS Super Hero movie there is no indication that he can use UI.

As for Daima SSJ4, there is no indication that he can't use that form again. He should be able to use SSJ4, just like DBS Manga Goku can use UI at will at any time.

In DBS and Daima Kaioshin says he doesn't like to be fused, so I don't see why Kaioshin would fuse again. He only fused since he didn't know the fusion would be permanent.

[Soba Mask]

It's actually funny and a a fuck you to Vegeta. Bulma and her machine pulled out 4 for him as well but without it he wasn't able to turn into 4 again.

Goku on the other hand could do it in Daima after Neva unlocked it LOL

[Hulk10]

Can we take a moment to appreciate just how powerful Ssj4 was presented in episode 20 ? This is by far the most powerful a form has been presented in since Ssj3 back in the Buu arc. We were told that Ssj4 in GT was stronger than Ssj3, and we were told how strong Super's forms were, but they never did anything that made them feel strong. Daima's Ssj4 talks the talk and walks the walk. This feels like the true next great transformation after Ssj3.

Indeed. It truly is supremely powerful.