The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DBZAOTA482]

Yamcha ( 23rd Budokai ) and Kuririn ( 23rd Budokai ) vs Piccolo Daimao ( young )

Yamcha and Krillin overwhelm Piccolo Daimao. Heck, they could probably best him on their own with their superior technique.

[Lord Beerus]

Yamcha ( 23rd Budokai ) and Kuririn ( 23rd Budokai ) vs Piccolo Daimao ( young )

King Piccolo ain't got no chance when Yamcha and Krillin take him together.

[ahill1]

Remember that this is Piccolo Daimao ( young ), which is far superior than himself old.

[DBZAOTA482]

Remember that this is Piccolo Daimao ( young ), which is far superior than himself old.

We know...

[Lord Beerus]

Remember that this is Piccolo Daimao ( young ), which is far superior than himself old.

King Piccolo's BP in his youth is 260, considering that the BP of Goku when he fired a Kamehameha at Piccolo Jr (910) is nearly identical to the BP of the Goku when he fired a Kamehameha at Raditz (924), this would mean Goku's BP against Raditz (416), would be damn near the same when he fought against Piccolo Jr, who BP most likely remained nearly the same (408). And as Krillin was able to put a fight against Piccolo Jr, albeit briefly, this would put Krillin's BP over at least 300, same for Yamcha as he held his ground against Kami (Hero), who also gave Piccolo Jr. a run for his money.

[RandomGuy96]

Remember that this is Piccolo Daimao ( young ), which is far superior than himself old.

King Piccolo's BP in his youth is 260, considering that the BP of Goku when he fired a Kamehameha at Piccolo Jr (910) is nearly identical to the BP of the Goku when he fired a Kamehameha at Raditz (924), this would mean Goku's BP against Raditz (416), would be damn near the same when he fought against Piccolo Jr, who BP most likely remained nearly the same (408). And as Krillin was able to put a fight against Piccolo Jr, albeit briefly, this would put Krillin's BP over at least 300, same for Yamcha as he held his ground against Kami (Hero), who also gave Piccolo Jr. a run for his money.

They were only able to "put up a fight" because Kami/Piccolo were explicitly holding back.

Chapter: 171, P12.5, P13.1-2
Piccolo: “Frankly, I’m surprised…Not by your Bukujutsu, but by your technique and movement…And your toughness…To apologize for calling you a small fry, I’ll show you just a little bit…”
Kuririn: “What? What will you show me?!”
Piccolo: “The true power of the great Ma Junior…”

Chapter: 175, P14.5
Kuririn: “Wh-what’s happening? Yamcha’s helpless!”
...
Yamcha: “I’ve lost. A complete defeat. I have no chance of beating someone who could get hit with the Sokidan head-on and only suffer that much damage.”

Krillin and Yamcha have their powers read at 206 and 177 respectively at the beginning of DBZ. Their power levels at the 23rd Budokai should be roughly the same. Against young Daimao, at 260, they don't stand a chance.

[ZombieVito]

Exactly what Random said. Maybe if this was old Piccolo they could manage something.

[Lord Beerus]

Remember that this is Piccolo Daimao ( young ), which is far superior than himself old.

King Piccolo's BP in his youth is 260, considering that the BP of Goku when he fired a Kamehameha at Piccolo Jr (910) is nearly identical to the BP of the Goku when he fired a Kamehameha at Raditz (924), this would mean Goku's BP against Raditz (416), would be damn near the same when he fought against Piccolo Jr, who BP most likely remained nearly the same (408). And as Krillin was able to put a fight against Piccolo Jr, albeit briefly, this would put Krillin's BP over at least 300, same for Yamcha as he held his ground against Kami (Hero), who also gave Piccolo Jr. a run for his money.

They were only able to "put up a fight" because Kami/Piccolo were explicitly holding back.

Chapter: 171, P12.5, P13.1-2
Piccolo: “Frankly, I’m surprised…Not by your Bukujutsu, but by your technique and movement…And your toughness…To apologize for calling you a small fry, I’ll show you just a little bit…”
Kuririn: “What? What will you show me?!”
Piccolo: “The true power of the great Ma Junior…”

Chapter: 175, P14.5
Kuririn: “Wh-what’s happening? Yamcha’s helpless!”
...
Yamcha: “I’ve lost. A complete defeat. I have no chance of beating someone who could get hit with the Sokidan head-on and only suffer that much damage.”

Krillin and Yamcha have their powers read at 206 and 177 respectively at the beginning of DBZ. Their power levels at the 23rd Budokai should be roughly the same. Against young Daimao, at 260, they don't stand a chance.

Oh, yeah. I forgot that Piccolo and Kami held back. But to fair, the BP's for Krillin and Yamcha that were read from them were when they were in a relaxed state. It was the same thing with Roshi. His BP was 139 when he was relaxed, but would reach 180 when he was staring to get serious. Tien is another example. When relaxed has a BP of 250, yet not too long ago he effortlessly knocked out Cyborg Tao, who had BP that was only 40 below that, meaning his BP at the time he beat Cyborg Tao must have very near 300 or above. I reckon Krillin and Yamcha's BP would a bit higher if there weren't so relaxed.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I actually think Yamcha alone could win, with his Sokidan. Together they could win without Yamcha's Sokidan. I view Yamcha and Krillin as closing in on Daimao and Son Goku from 3 years back, but not quite there yet.

Young Daimao: 15
Son Goku: 16

Krillin (23rd): 12.5
Yamcha (23rd): 12

^ Something like that.

But to fair, the BP's for Krillin and Yamcha that were read from them were when they were in a relaxed state.

Scouters can properly read resting Ki, only Ki sensors can't. The only way to hide power from a scouter is suppression, which is different from surfacing Ki. The numbers given by Bulma's scouter readings should be their full powers.

It also wouldn't make sense for Krillin to brag about his BP being higher than Roshi's, if he was suppressed / not at full power, otherwise he would've further gloated something like "and that's not even my full power!"

[ahill1]

Once again, Piccolo Daimao (young) can't have 260; Tenshinhan (23rd TB) is stronger than Piccolo of 3 years ago; If Tenshinhan (BoZ) has 250, then Piccolo Daimao (young) has to be less than 250.

[Bullza]

Yeah whatever magazine gave Piccolo Daimao's power level goofed that one up. I don't place much value in any of the power levels given outside of the manga.

Anyway rank these from strongest to weakest.

Golden Oozaru Baby
Nova Shenron
Eis Shenron
Super Android 17

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Super Android #17 (post-10x KHH) > Si Xing Long (Nuova) ~ Golden Great Ape Baby > San Xing Long (Eis) > Super Android #17 (pre-10x KHH)

[Captain Space]

Once again, Piccolo Daimao (young) can't have 260; Tenshinhan (23rd TB) is stronger than Piccolo of 3 years ago; If Tenshinhan (BoZ) has 250, then Piccolo Daimao (young) has to be less than 250.

This; weighted 23rd Goku was above his KP-arc self in most respects, and Tenshinhan was about on par with him. Those 'official' numbers don't add up.

[Lord Beerus]

Anyway rank these from strongest to weakest.

Golden Oozaru Baby
Nova Shenron
Eis Shenron
Super Android 17

Super Android 17 (Post energy absorption) > Golden Oozaru Baby > Nova Shenron > Eis Shenron > Super 17

[Bullza]

Was Nova She ron not equal to SSJ4 Goku? One that would have been slightly stronger than the one that beat Golden Baby?

I forget.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Was Nova She ron not equal to SSJ4 Goku? One that would have been slightly stronger than the one that beat Golden Baby?

I forget.

Why would he be slightly stronger than when he beat Golden Great Ape Baby? Maybe his lower forms but not his Super Saiyan 4 (IMO).

Also, according to the GT Perfect Files, Baby was slightly stronger than SS4 Goku.

[LonelyShadow]

The thing is though, I don't see how it makes him look weaker, because he could've (killed him). He was going to. The last panel before he's hit by Vegeta's blast tells us he's finishing Gohan off with one last push. Cell doesn't struggle at all. There's literally nothing to suggest he's struggling or weaker until the moment he dies, which is the result of that extra 15% in conjunction with help. We can ignore Goku here because all that tells us is Gohan's either not attentive or can't see what's going on over there. Gohan, who's struggling, clearly doesn't think a push will do anything. But Vegeta is significant. I just don't see that extra 15%, which could be 10% or any other percent, but 15 seems reasonable, killing him unless he was distracted. It seems completely pointless. Using the immature narrative, as you suggested, it makes everyone immature, especially Goku.

I'm not saying that there's a notable difference between the two of them, I'm saying that with Gohan's boost the difference is more evident. I have them like this:

Spoiler:

Super Vegeta: (10)

Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku: (15)

Full-Power Super Saiyan Gohan: (16.5)

Perfect Cell (Against Goku): (16)

Perfect Cell (Against Gohan): (17)

Perfect Cell (100%): (20)

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (100%): 31

Super Perfect Cell (100%): 30

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (Rage Boost): 34.5

Mr. Satan: (Base) 25 (Old Kai Ritual/Potential Unleashed) (666)

Without the boost the difference is almost unnoticeable. Meaning that if Gohan get's carried away with Cell (I mean he did, but he's very embarrassed about it and he wishes for us to ignore the subject), he could probably lose. Gohan is just a kid, he might have the knowledge of a scientist of his short age, but he isn't a genius in combat (or at least he hasn't shown any signs of it.) On the other hand, Cell has the cells of the best fighters that were available at the time, meaning that, even with the little difference that there is between the two of them, he could actually make a plan good enough to defeat the little Einstein (unless he let's him get mad), and now with the Instant Transmission at his disposition he has a great opportunity to escape from a critical situation.

Who knows? Maybe Cell actually escaped in the middle of the blast with his new technique, badly hurt but still alive, and decided to not come back and kill the rest of the Z Fighters, he actually decided to stay on a planet that had a gravity heavier than the Earth by many folds and stay there order to train. After many years passed, Cell returned to planet Earth with his brand new Evolution: "Super Fuchsia Cell", and only a fusion between the two SSG Super Saiyans can defeat him. Called it.

The whole "Gohan needs help" screams to me "Gohan's weaker because he's battle damaged". I think he'd struggle a lot at full power against Cell. I find this evidence to be from the fact his initial confidence may not be justified. This is why I put SPC at just below, equal or just above Gohan. The fact Cell says, "I've powered up just like Son Gohan" leads me to believe they're probably equal when he returns to Earth. I think Gohan can strain his limits with rage, a la that extra 15%. But that's a short burst of energy that ultimately may not do anything at all (a one time thing).

We can argue if Gohan actually was at 50% - 45% during the whole struggle, which would explain why Cell was so casual during the established moment. We can also make a little theory about how Toriyama pulled off a Deus Ex Machina, where Gohan suddenly restores his 100% + 15% right before he blasts Cell off, this could also explain why Cell didn't have an opportunity to push back (either that or he ran out of time because of Vegeta's super amazing distraction.)

As for the quote: "O...Oh... Ce... Cell's power has shot up more than I thought...", I don't know if you agree with me, but any character can get hurt by a vastly inferior adversary if they are taken off-guard:

Yeah I agree but, Gohan doesn't say anything suggesting Cell's weaker. He literally says he's stronger than he thought.

When he said: "Stronger than I though" he was probably refering to the "Lazzah" he received, moments before this, Gohan was very confident about facing Cell one last time (which means that Cell didn't show his full potential yet), meaning that he probably took the blast because he though he was weaker than that. He didn't expect Cell to become almost as strong as him. As I said before, "any character can get hurt by a vastly inferior adversary if they are taken off-guard." Cell isn't vastly inferior to Gohan, if Trunks managed to kick Buu even if he is miles below him, the damage that Gohan received by an enemy who could actually defeat him seems reasonable and that would explain his statement.

Of course, just like 60% of the statements presented in Dragon Ball it's a hypothetical case, there could be many reasons why Gohan fell to the ground in that state, the injury on his arm, the fact that his power was put into the biggest test while he was at 50% (or just the plot "aww he killed a monster and he felt sleep"), as I say above, Cell might have way too many handicaps himself, he was perfectly fine, at full power and could use both of his arms, he saw an opportunity to secure his victory over Gohan.

Why would the fact his arms busted be why he fell down? He was standing fine before. He looks exhausted, I don't see how he couldn't be. If he wasn't exhausted, why wouldn't he just fly? He doesn't seem to be in a monumental amount of pain, he's smiling.

I honestly don't know why the "Gohan falls like a plank of wood" seems to be a problem/prove that he's weaker or something like that. Given the circumstances, I don't see why he wouldn't fall over like that, actually, it would be weird if actually didn't fall to the ground , he said that he got his power cut to a half, he got his arm broken and he was making an amazing effort during the struggle. When Goku killed Kid Buu with the Genkidama he was a regular Super Saiyan when he pushed the technique a little further, after that, Goku falls slowly from the sky, showing signs of being exhausted (probably due the combination of using his strongest attack while he was a SSJ and having his arms in the air for many minutes.) The reason why this didn't happen during the showdown between Goku and Frieza it's because, in this case, SSJ Goku had the upper hand during the entire fight.

Also, only because he's in a state where he's suffering a monumental ammount of pain doens't necessarily mean that he can't/won't smile. This kind of cases are very common in the anime and specially in the Dragon Ball Universe:

Spoiler:

I would really like to know your opinion about this: if Vegeta didn't go all tsundere with Cell attacking Trunks-senpai and Gohan wasn't hurt by "Dah Lazuh" or in a hypothetical scenario where is perfectly fine at 100% and then the beam struggle began immediately, who could have won? (In the second case a strong Kamehameha by Gohan lead Cell to become SPC meaning that Goku was still alive, but he won't help his son this time.)

If Vegeta didn't flip his shit, I really doubt there'd be a beam struggle. I think it'd be another fight (I'm drawing a comic about this). Cell says, in the anime at least, "I will suffer you no more!" I don't think it's all that different in the manga, but I can check later. This is pretty much Cell saying he doesn't want to waste time, that he's not dragging it out anymore, he's finishing him off. Basically due to the fact he doesn't see Gohan as a challenge anymore. If there was a beam struggle, and the whole shonen trope of the good guys winning wasn't a thing, Cell may win, he may not. Their powers are likely equal at that point, as far I'm concerned.

That could probably be the case, since Gohan had his power cut to a half and nobody was able to inflict too much pain on Cell he got the opportunity of making his work a little bit easier. He knew that Gohan wasn't a threat anymore since he took that blast and left him useless in hand-to-hand combat and also his power was reduced. As for the beam struggle where both are at their 100%, I agree, flip a coin. Without his rage boost, Gohan could lose, if he has it, he wins, there's also the chance that Gohan could get some help from the others, just like in the anime.

A comic? That sounds very interesting, I expect Toriyama's or Toyotarō's art style, heavy dialogue and a special Full Color Edition with the purchase of 20 bags of Doritos.

Anyway rank these from strongest to weakest.

Golden Oozaru Baby
Nova Shenron
Eis Shenron
Super Android 17

I agree with Lord Beerus comment about this.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Once again, Piccolo Daimao (young) can't have 260; Tenshinhan (23rd TB) is stronger than Piccolo of 3 years ago; If Tenshinhan (BoZ) has 250, then Piccolo Daimao (young) has to be less than 250.

But Tien was already not far from 250 in the 23rd tournament. I agree with what Lord Beerus said above. The levels we have for Tien, Krillin and Yamcha at BoZ are relaxed numbers. Not their max. Krillin and Yamcha would have either remained the same or actually gotten weaker compared to 5 years ago. That would not make sense.

[ahill1]

But the warriors still didn't know how to suppress his power, so the numbers that appeared in scouters were indeed his powers.

[Captain Space]

Once again, Piccolo Daimao (young) can't have 260; Tenshinhan (23rd TB) is stronger than Piccolo of 3 years ago; If Tenshinhan (BoZ) has 250, then Piccolo Daimao (young) has to be less than 250.

But Tenshinhan was already not far from 250 in the 23rd tournament. I agree with what Lord Beerus said above. The levels we have for Tenshinhan, Krillin and Yamcha at BoZ are relaxed numbers. Not their max. Krillin and Yamcha would have either remained the same or actually gotten weaker compared to 5 years ago. That would not make sense.

Ooooor the numbers given in databooks and guides like 260 for King Piccolo just don't sync up well with actual canon stuff.