The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:51 pm

supercat wrote: How could Final Form Freeza possibly be weaker than Ultimate Gohan? If Gohan was that powerful during his Super Buu-crushing days, don't you think he would have taken the time to kick himself for neglecting his training?

Also, Piccolo immediately told Roshi that they were leagues apart. The old master probably asked that question because he wasn't sure if Gohan or Piccolo still had some latent power they had not yet shown.
He can be that strong relative to Freeza because nothing suggests he isn't, and a few things suggest he is. Gohan not taking the time to point out that he sucks isn't really proof of anything. Especially since, as shown by the past three alien invasions, faff Gohan doesn't appear to have any dignity or pride.

Roshi doesn't seem to react with surprise, so it seems the point of the scene was that he knew the power difference, but just wanted to confirm that it was too big for Gohan and Piccolo to do anything.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sayo-chan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:53 pm

supercat wrote: Yes, Freeza does have a track record of making emotionally influenced decisions that ended up costing him, but there would be no room for error here, as any ki blast would probably incinerate every last one of Cell's cells.
One thing I find to be a bit vexing is how people in these debates act as though their interpretation is the only possible scenario, and that's really how you're coming off. Especially with statements like these in response to a very obvious joke.

You have no way to prove this claim. It's no more valid than anything I've stated. It's also just as valid as saying, nope, Freeza only vaporized most of his body. I could make up scenarios each time for Freeza failing to kill him, it's irrelevant to the possibility.
supercat wrote:Furthermore, Freeza had enough sense to promptly eliminate Dende, so it's pretty unlikely he would just sit around and fall victim to Cell's scheming tactics.
Freeza saw Dende healing them. Team Vegetto blitzes them. Stray blasts vaporize most of Cell, he comes back stronger, etc. Freeza throws a head on blast, neglects to fully kill him. There's plenty of possibilities here. The bolded portion of your statement is a claim. It's no more valid than me saying he would. You're drawing an inference from Freeza making a wise decision that's hardly comparable. We have no way to know the probability here, especially in a universe where the unlikely happens frequently.
supercat wrote:Just because the biological android saw an increase in power after recovering from his own explosion, doesn't automatically mean he'll always come back as a new and improved version of himself after every injury. How do we know he'll have that kind of luxury on an ongoing basis? Regardless, the amount of times he would need to go through that whole cycle to come even remotely close to Frieza-tier would be mind-boggling.
I. There's nothing to support he wouldn't. It's established he did once. If Goku can go to the Moon on his pole, there's nothing to say he couldn't do it again. This a similar circumstance. Until there's more information released about his zenkais, there's nothing definitive beyond his are relevant, whereas according to Daizenshuu 7, the Saiyans' were not.

II. We don't. It's an assumption that's neither true nor false. All we know is that he's an exception to the rule, which means he works differently in some way in that regard.

III. This is unsubstantiated. We have no idea how much Cell's zenkais differ. I can make up a mind-boggling amount of scenarios where it could happen, all just as likely as the last. There's simply not enough information to come to a definitive conclusion.
supercat wrote:By the second or third round of recovery, the tyrant would get bored and go straight for the kill.
You're making assumptions and acting as if they're factual. Who said anything about a constant direct confrontation? For all Freeza knows, there are multiple Cells of varying battle powers.
Most Dragon Ball fans are incapable of making a logically sound argument.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:08 pm

supercat wrote:Haven't posted one of these in awhile, but here goes!

Freeza's first three forms (post training) - Gauntlet:

Super Perfect Cell
Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta)
SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc)
Kid Buu
Super Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
Buutenks
Buuhan
SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc)
3rd Suppression Freeza stops at Super Buu.
2nd Suppression Freeza stops at Buutenks.
1st Suppression Freeza stops at Vegetto.
Original form Freeza finger flicks Vegetto.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:08 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
supercat wrote: How could Final Form Freeza possibly be weaker than Ultimate Gohan? If Gohan was that powerful during his Super Buu-crushing days, don't you think he would have taken the time to kick himself for neglecting his training?

Also, Piccolo immediately told Roshi that they were leagues apart. The old master probably asked that question because he wasn't sure if Gohan or Piccolo still had some latent power they had not yet shown.
He can be that strong relative to Freeza because nothing suggests he isn't, and a few things suggest he is. Gohan not taking the time to point out that he sucks isn't really proof of anything. Especially since, as shown by the past three alien invasions, faff Gohan doesn't appear to have any dignity or pride.

Roshi doesn't seem to react with surprise, so it seems the point of the scene was that he knew the power difference, but just wanted to confirm that it was too big for Gohan and Piccolo to do anything.
Nothing suggests that First Form Frieza isn't Super Buu-tier either though. Goku was awe-struck when Frieza first began powering up, and the latter even managed to push the former back during his explosive showcase of power. Although anything is within the realm of possibilities here, I simply cannot picture Super Perfect Cell sparking the same expression on Goku's face while causing him to slide back.

Even if we hold different interpretations on why Roshi asked that question, we can't argue with the fact that Piccolo said Frieza was leagues above them all. Sure, the Namekian is still presumably below Super Perfect Cell, but I doubt the gap is substantial enough to elicit the wording that he used. A commonly accepted notion is that Piccolo should be on fighting terms with a Cell Jr. by this point.
Sayo-chan wrote:
supercat wrote: Yes, Freeza does have a track record of making emotionally influenced decisions that ended up costing him, but there would be no room for error here, as any ki blast would probably incinerate every last one of Cell's cells.
One thing I find to be a bit vexing is how people in these debates act as though their interpretation is the only possible scenario, and that's really how you're coming off. Especially with statements like these in response to a very obvious joke.

You have no way to prove this claim. It's no more valid than anything I've stated. It's also just as valid as saying, nope, Freeza only vaporized most of his body. I could make up scenarios each time for Freeza failing to kill him, it's irrelevant to the possibility.
supercat wrote:Furthermore, Freeza had enough sense to promptly eliminate Dende, so it's pretty unlikely he would just sit around and fall victim to Cell's scheming tactics.
Freeza saw Dende healing them. Team Vegetto blitzes them. Stray blasts vaporize most of Cell, he comes back stronger, etc. Freeza throws a head on blast, neglects to fully kill him. There's plenty of possibilities here. The bolded portion of your statement is a claim. It's no more valid than me saying he would. You're drawing an inference from Freeza making a wise decision that's hardly comparable. We have no way to know the probability here, especially in a universe where the unlikely happens frequently.
supercat wrote:Just because the biological android saw an increase in power after recovering from his own explosion, doesn't automatically mean he'll always come back as a new and improved version of himself after every injury. How do we know he'll have that kind of luxury on an ongoing basis? Regardless, the amount of times he would need to go through that whole cycle to come even remotely close to Frieza-tier would be mind-boggling.
I. There's nothing to support he wouldn't. It's established he did once. If Goku can go to the Moon on his pole, there's nothing to say he couldn't do it again. This a similar circumstance. Until there's more information released about his zenkais, there's nothing definitive beyond his are relevant, whereas according to Daizenshuu 7, the Saiyans' were not.

II. We don't. It's an assumption that's neither true nor false. All we know is that he's an exception to the rule, which means he works differently in some way in that regard.

III. This is unsubstantiated. We have no idea how much Cell's zenkais differ. I can make up a mind-boggling amount of scenarios where it could happen, all just as likely as the last. There's simply not enough information to come to a definitive conclusion.
supercat wrote:By the second or third round of recovery, the tyrant would get bored and go straight for the kill.
You're making assumptions and acting as if they're factual. Who said anything about a constant direct confrontation? For all Freeza knows, there are multiple Cells of varying battle powers.
-There's really no point in me coming onto a thread like this and formulating a discussion with other members, if I firmly believe that my theory is the one and only route of possibility in a given scenario. I may have a stronger preference towards one speculation over another, but that does not in any shape or form mean that I'm not open to your suggestions or any other member's for that matter.

-You're right, we really can't make an accurate judgment on a topic with such little information pertaining to it. That said, I'm sure you could acknowledge the fact that the whole taking a beating, getting fixed up, and coming back stronger than ever concept has lost its value right? Who knows, maybe Cell does have unlimited access to such a privilege; but I personally believe that most, if not all special abilities have their own set of limitations.

-Perhaps I should have elaborated on the details. The purpose of the gauntlet was for Frieza to face each fighter one on one in a conventional setting, not all at once.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sayo-chan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:19 pm

Supercat wrote:-That said, I'm sure you could acknowledge the fact that the whole taking a beating, getting fixed up, and coming back stronger than ever concept has lost its value right?
It lost its value for the Saiyans, but again, Cell made an exception to that. It could be that it'd follow suit of theirs (i.e., he gets monumentally large boosts that eventually subside into nothing), or something else entirely. I have a hunch that sometime within the next 10 years, this may pop up somewhere in official media.
Supercat wrote:-Perhaps I should have elaborated on the details. The purpose of the gauntlet was for Freeza to face each fighter one on one in a conventional setting, not all at once.
Well that changes everything entirely. In this case, the context is even more important here. Why is Cell there? Does he know Freeza's power has substantially increased? Why is he fighting Freeza to begin with? It's possible he's stronger than Freeza's first form, so maybe he'd underestimate him and provoke him into transforming. Maybe he'd be annoyed and one-shot him. Maybe he'd know Freeza can still transform and that the boosts would be far more than he can handle, thus forcing him to flee from battle. Maybe Freeza would accidentally one-shot him.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:20 pm

supercat wrote:Haven't posted one of these in awhile, but here goes!

Freeza's first three forms (post training) - Gauntlet:

Super Perfect Cell
Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta)
SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc)
Kid Buu
Super Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
Buutenks
Buuhan
SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc)
-I think 1st form Freeza loses to Majin Boo.
-Second Form I think is on par with SSJ3 Goku and Kid Boo.
-Third Form is below the Super Boo tier.
-Fourth form like before blows the others out of the water and may be on par with SSJ Vegetto. He was stomped by Goku so dunno really how to place him.

Though all forms beat Gohan in the neo era in the most embarrassing ways possible.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LonelyShadow » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:30 pm

supercat wrote:Haven't posted one of these in awhile, but here goes!

Freeza's first three forms (post training) - Gauntlet:

Super Perfect Cell
Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta)
SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc)
Kid Buu
Super Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
Buutenks
Buuhan
SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc)
First Form Freeza stops at Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku.
Second Form Freeza is defeated very easily by Super Buu or Gotenks.
Third Form Freeza has a little bit of advantage over Buutenks and lasts enough time before the fusion runs out of time and then, Buuhan gets cold chocolate for dinner.
Final Form Freeza steps on Vegetto's shoe and he dies, emerging victorious from the challenge.
Peter Griffin and Ernie vs Goku (Beginning of Dragon Ball)
Based on feats, Peter could defeat Goku by himself if he tags with Ernie is a stomp.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:43 pm

SS Trunks (Trunks saga) vs. Android #20 (pre-absorptions)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:56 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SS Trunks (Trunks saga) vs. Android #20 (pre-absorptions)
Trunks kills Gero the same way he killed Freeza.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:58 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SS Trunks (Trunks saga) vs. Android #20 (pre-absorptions)
Slice n' dice.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:02 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SS Trunks (Trunks saga) vs. Android #20 (pre-absorptions)
Dr Gero gets decimated

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sayo-chan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:08 pm

Let's add a little juice to that. As Trunks slices and dices Freeza's men, 19 and 20 plop down on top of the spaceship. Who attacks first and who emerges the victor by what means?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LonelyShadow » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:36 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SS Trunks (Trunks saga) vs. Android #20 (pre-absorptions)
Even with absorptions, he gets destroyed by Trunks, thus saving the world from the Androids awakening and Krillin from getting laid.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:40 pm

Sayo-chan wrote:
Supercat wrote:-That said, I'm sure you could acknowledge the fact that the whole taking a beating, getting fixed up, and coming back stronger than ever concept has lost its value right?
It lost its value for the Saiyans, but again, Cell made an exception to that. It could be that it'd follow suit of theirs (i.e., he gets monumentally large boosts that eventually subside into nothing), or something else entirely. I have a hunch that sometime within the next 10 years, this may pop up somewhere in official media.
Supercat wrote:-Perhaps I should have elaborated on the details. The purpose of the gauntlet was for Freeza to face each fighter one on one in a conventional setting, not all at once.
Well that changes everything entirely. In this case, the context is even more important here. Why is Cell there? Does he know Freeza's power has substantially increased? Why is he fighting Freeza to begin with? It's possible he's stronger than Freeza's first form, so maybe he'd underestimate him and provoke him into transforming. Maybe he'd be annoyed and one-shot him. Maybe he'd know Freeza can still transform and that the boosts would be far more than he can handle, thus forcing him to flee from battle. Maybe Freeza would accidentally one-shot him.
-Cell's abilities and potential are shrouded in mystery. Theoretically speaking, he has the best assets of some of the top fighters in the series, but on the contrary, there's always that possibility that genuine traits and talents cannot be artificially replicated. That said, I don't doubt the validity of your conjecture.

-It was a hypothetical gauntlet to open up an in-depth discussion pertaining to Frieza's first three forms. Watching all three of them in action would have definitely brought some nostalgia.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by In Brightest Day » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:46 pm

A few fights:

- Future Android #18 vs. Cooler (transformed), Mecha Freeza (100% power) and King Cold.
- Captain Ginyu (no Body-swap) vs. Son Goku (beginning of Namek, no Kaio-Ken) and Krillin (vs. Freeza).
- Cui and 10 of Freeza's henchmen vs. Son Goku, Piccolo, Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Chaozu and Son Gohan (Saiyan arc).
- Kibitoshin vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (25th Budokai).
- Nappa vs. Roshi (Resurrection F).

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:59 pm

In Brightest Day wrote:A few fights:

- Future Android #18 vs. Cooler (transformed), Mecha Freeza (100% power) and King Cold.
- Captain Ginyu (no Body-swap) vs. Son Goku (beginning of Namek, no Kaio-Ken) and Krillin (vs. Freeza).
- Cui and 10 of Freeza's henchmen vs. Son Goku, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Chaozu and Son Gohan (Saiyan arc).
- Kibitoshin vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (25th Budokai).
- Nappa vs. Roshi (Resurrection F).
- #18 destroys the Frost Demon family with the greatest of ease
- Although Ginyu's Body Swap technique is pretty much his ace in the hole, there is still a decent margin of strength between him and Goku and Krillin. So Ginyu takes this with mild difficulty
- Cui alone wrecks all of the Z-Fighters easily
- Vegeta stomps hard
- I reckon Roshi would take this. I have his BP rivalling Vegeta (Saiyan arc) in ROF

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:02 pm

In Brightest Day wrote:- Future Android #18 vs. Cooler (transformed), Mecha Freeza (100% power) and King Cold.
- Captain Ginyu (no Body-swap) vs. Son Goku (beginning of Namek, no Kaio-Ken) and Krillin (vs. Freeza).
- Kibitoshin vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (25th Budokai).
- Android #18 would win all of these fights easily in my opinion. I put Cooler on par with Mecha Freeza who SS Trunks said he could take down in seconds. The same Trunks calls Future #18 a monster with power beyond imagination.
- Krillin wins alone as long as there's no body switching trickery going on. I have him around 360k, which is 3x Captain Ginyu.
- Kibitoshin wins for me, I have him in between Pure Evil Boo and Innocent Boo.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:44 pm

In Brightest Day wrote:A few fights:

- Future Android #18 vs. Cooler (transformed), Mecha Freeza (100% power) and King Cold.
- Captain Ginyu (no Body-swap) vs. Son Goku (beginning of Namek, no Kaio-Ken) and Krillin (vs. Freeza).
- Cui and 10 of Freeza's henchmen vs. Son Goku, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Chaozu and Son Gohan (Saiyan arc).
- Kibitoshin vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (25th Budokai).
- Nappa vs. Roshi (Resurrection F).
Future 18 should be able to kill them all with ease.
Ginyu wins with mild difficulty.
Piccolo alone should one shot all of Freeza's men (he is stronger than the young Namekians that fought them on Namek) and Goku should beat Cui with KKx3.
Vegeta has the slight edge but Kibitoshin's magic abilities would secure him the win.
Nappa is over 22 times stronger than bulk up Roshi. This is not a battle, it's rape.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ahill1 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:59 pm

Yamcha(android saga) vs Piccolo(mecha freeza saga)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:33 am

ahill1 wrote:Yamcha(android saga) vs Piccolo(mecha freeza saga)
Yamcha wins. Nothing backing that other than my opinion.

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