The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[nickzambuto]

Ascended Saiyan/Super Saiyan Grade II Vegeta vs Ultra Saiyan/Super Saiyan Grade III Trunks (Vegeta when he fought Semi-Perfect Cell vs buff/slow Trunks)

[ZombieVito]

SSJ2 Gohan [post Z Sword] vs SSJ2 Vegeta [Majin].

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

SSJ2 Gohan [post Z Sword] vs SSJ2 Vegeta [Majin].

Gohan handled the Zeta Sword better than Goku did in equal forms, so I'd personally wager that Gohan is stronger by a noticeable amount. I don't believe he rivals Fat Boo however.

[nickzambuto]

SSJ2 Gohan [post Z Sword] vs SSJ2 Vegeta [Majin].

My interpretation has always been that the Z-Sword training got Gohan back in shape and brought him up to his prime. Majin Vegeta was said to be a bit stronger than the Gohan who fought Cell, but those rage boosts are a factor... than again, if Bootenks could use Piccolo's brain to psyche Gohan out, Vegeta can do the same since he makes a habit of psychologically manipulating virtually every notable intellect in the series; Freeza, Gero, Cell, Babidi and Dabura, Kid Boo, and recently Beerus if you consider keeping him from fulfilling his duty as God of Destruction to be combat related. Back in the Saiyans arc he immediately predicted Krillin's whole strategy to remove his tail just as soon as he saw Gohan fly over, in the Androids arc even Piccolo himself called Vegeta mentally unbeatable, and against Kid Boo, who was calling all the shots? It wasn't fighting genius Goku, nor the Kais -- it was Vegeta.

Vegeta's strategic abilities are such an underappreciated aspect of his character, so in close battles like this I usually side with him because of them.

[Khin]

SSJ2 Gohan [post Z Sword] vs SSJ2 Vegeta [Majin].

Vegeta stomps,I dont believe swinging a sword for days made Gohan surpass Vegeta.

[Noah]

Vegeta's strategic abilities are such an underappreciated aspect of his character, so in close battles like this I usually side with him because of them.

But in a equal power match between he and another battle genius like Piccolo, who would win?

[voltlunok]

Vegeta's strategic abilities are such an underappreciated aspect of his character, so in close battles like this I usually side with him because of them.

But in a equal power match between he and another battle genius like Piccolo, who would win?

I'd say Piccolo. I'd see Vegeta's plans being a little or even quite aggressive compared to Piccolo's plans. Vegeta seems very "Lets get this shit done with as quick as possible, I have postulating and ego stroking to do later." so I think Piccolo would plan around that and trick Vegeta into a trap...something like the Hellzone Grenade.

[DBZAOTA482]

Vegeta's strategic abilities are such an underappreciated aspect of his character, so in close battles like this I usually side with him because of them.

But in a equal power match between he and another battle genius like Piccolo, who would win?

I'd say Piccolo. I'd see Vegeta's plans being a little or even quite aggressive compared to Piccolo's plans. Vegeta seems very "Lets get this shit done with as quick as possible, I have postulating and ego stroking to do later." so I think Piccolo would plan around that and trick Vegeta into a trap...something like the Hellzone Grenade.

Yet Piccolo's plan almost always fail in the end.

Vegeta claims this... his durability and will-power could definitely give him the win.

[Khin]

Vegeta's strategic abilities are such an underappreciated aspect of his character, so in close battles like this I usually side with him because of them.

But in a equal power match between he and another battle genius like Piccolo, who would win?

I dont really think Piccolo is that intellegent when it comes to fighting,i think people overrate him,But this match is a 50/50.

[Angelus]

Tien (during Mecha Frieza and King Cold's arrival on Earth) VS Cell Games Yamcha

Saiyan Saga Chiaotzu VS Saiyan Saga Yajirobe with sword, Roshi, Korin, Cyborg Tao, Crane Hermit, and Chi Chi

[DBZAOTA482]

Tenshinhan (during Mecha Freeza and King Cold's arrival on Earth) VS Cell Games Yamcha

Saiyan Saga Chiaotzu VS Saiyan Saga Yajirobe with sword, Roshi, Karin, Cyborg Tao, Crane Hermit, and Chi Chi

-Yamcha one-shots
-Yajirobe solos

[Khin]

Tenshinhan (during Mecha Freeza and King Cold's arrival on Earth) VS Cell Games Yamcha

Saiyan Saga Chiaotzu VS Saiyan Saga Yajirobe with sword, Roshi, Karin, Cyborg Tao, Crane Hermit, and Chi Chi

-Yamcha got one shotted by Tenshinhan's Kikoho.
-The Team rapes poor Chaouzu.

[nickzambuto]

Vegeta's strategic abilities are such an underappreciated aspect of his character, so in close battles like this I usually side with him because of them.

But in a equal power match between he and another battle genius like Piccolo, who would win?

Vegeta without a shadow of doubt. I find Piccolo's intelligence to be more myth than fact. If you actually look back at the character, the former Demon King was not a very wise or clever fighter. Pragmatic yes, he held a lot of common sense, like actually checking Goku's pulse after their first battle, but a lot of his tactics can also be chalked up to simple cruelty and underhandedness, like holding Tenshinhan hostage and planning to kill ALL martial artists. Regardless, if you actually look at his battle with Goku, he was outplayed, outmaneuvered, and outsmarted at every turn. This is despite the fact that, contrary to popular belief, King Piccolo actually still held a tremendous strength advantage on Goku. He nearly blew him away just by waving his hand, and Tenshinhan thought Goku had died after taking just one hit. Later on Piccolo was breaking Goku's bones by blowing rocks at him. There's no possible way that these two characters had equal strength, yet if you really pay attention to their fight in the manga, Goku wins by being more skillful (until Piccolo takes Tenshinhan hostage, then it's all will power from there, but that's beside the point)

My interpretation has always been that, since Old Piccolo outclassed Goku by a wide margin, drinking the water put them at equal power. But then Piccolo became young and received his own boost, widening the gap once more. However the water was stated to bring out Goku's dormant abilities, so I don't see why that wouldn't apply to his martial arts abilities as well. The fact that he was able to sense Piccolo's ki after drinking the water is proof of this. Hence Goku outskilled the brutish ogre.

Now my interpretation with Piccolo Jr has always been that he inherited all of his father's strength, but more importantly, he learned from the past mistake and focused on enhancing his actual fighting skills. Piccolo hated the martial artists, so in order to beat them, he became them and used their own abilities of fighting mastery against them. The fact that he learned how to reverse the Mafuba is proof that his skills increased, and if you compare Goku's fight with King Piccolo to his fight with Piccolo Jr, whereas the former had Piccolo getting outmaneuvered at every turn, the latter involved many more hand-to-hand clashes on even ground.

However even though Piccolo enhanced his skill, he didn't enhance his tactics. He was still the brutish ogre; regardless of what Piccolo is like at the end of the series, if you isolate his character from just the 23ed Budokai, he was exactly like his father. Just look at his fight with Krillin, he was outsmarted several times, complimented Krillin on his "skill and toughness", then countered by powering up. He had no sense of strategy, just brute force. And so his defeat at Goku's hands came from being outsmarted; literally every trick Piccolo tried ended up getting turned against him.

Then against Raditz, Piccolo does not display any increased strategic skill. He is still the evil, brute force ogre. Piccolo tries to be smart against Nappa... but he fails. Piccolo led that fight because he was the strongest and most commanding personality, but if you really pay attention to things, the only character who made any headway against the Saiyans at all was Krillin, and that was thanks to his skills and brain.

Fast forward to the Freeza fight, no strategic showings from Piccolo. However he is clearly no longer the brash, hotheaded, brute force ogre that he used to be. Fusing with Nail chilled him out a lot. This is an aspect of Piccolo's character that a lot of people miss out on; the Piccolo/Nail fusion is the character that everybody loves. The cool, calm, mysterious anti-hero guy. Beforehand he was just a loudmouthed ogre. In order to understand Piccolo's character development and evolution, fans need to understand how his fusions changed him.

Anyway fast forward to the Androids, no strategic showings besides feigning defeat to Dr. Gero to help Goku out, but this shouldn't count either if you look at the context. That revelation was not a character moment for Piccolo to show him being a smart fighter, it was a retcon. Initially Toriyama intended for Piccolo to have been legitimately oneshotted by Gero, but when he decided Gero wouldn't be the main villain, he had Piccolo say jk.

Then Piccolo fuses with Kami and NOW he finally becomes the fighting genius that everyone credits him as... well, sorta. He gains a ton of knowledge and wisdom, but "wise old mentor" wisdom is very different from battlefield strategics. Vegeta is the militaristic tactician, Piccolo was a wise mentor. His only showing of intelligence in combat is the Hellzone Grenade, which is F'ing brilliant, but one good showing does not make the whole character.

So in conclusion, Vegeta takes Piccolo out. He gets inside his head, uses his weaknesses against him, and as soon as the Prince of all Saiyans gets his opening, Piccolo will become ashes. Tactically a better opponent for Vegeta would actually be Krillin, or maybe even Yamcha. I would say that Vegeta's only weakness is his ki attacks aren't very creative, but I forgive him for that since they're some of the most powerful out of any character in the series, and he puts them to excellent use.

I just want to say that this post isn't meant to bash or degrade Piccolo in any way, we all love good ol' Big Green. I'm just, well, being honest. Piccolo's character is often misrepresented by the fan community. Same with Vegeta. There's a very good chance that I could be forgetting some instance of Piccolo outsmarting his opponent, but overall I think my analysis is correct.

[Captain Space]

SSJ2 Gohan [post Z Sword] vs SSJ2 Vegeta [Majin].

I'm sure the training helped shake a lot of the rust off, but it was only a day or two, I don't think Gohan would've quite closed the gap yet, Vegeta should win.

Ascended Saiyan/Super Saiyan Grade II Vegeta vs Ultra Saiyan/Super Saiyan Grade III Trunks (Vegeta when he fought Semi-Perfect Cell vs buff/slow Trunks)

Vegeta for sure. He could've used Grade 3 himself but didn't, that should tell us something.

Tenshinhan (during Mecha Freeza and King Cold's arrival on Earth) VS Cell Games Yamcha

The gap between them wasn't that big in the saiyan saga, and they both underwent the same training at Kaio's--give Yamcha a three-year lead and he wins easily.

[Noah]

So in conclusion, Vegeta takes Piccolo out. He gets inside his head, uses his weaknesses against him, and as soon as the Prince of all Saiyans gets his opening, Piccolo will become ashes. Tactically a better opponent for Vegeta would actually be Krillin, or maybe even Yamcha. I would say that Vegeta's only weakness is his ki attacks aren't very creative, but I forgive him for that since they're some of the most powerful out of any character in the series, and he puts them to excellent use

Good analysis, dude... But what make you think that Yamcha or Krillin would be better opponents for Vegeta than Piccolo?

[Captain Space]

Good analysis, dude... But what make you think that Yamcha or Krillin would be better opponents for Vegeta than Piccolo?

I dunno about Yamcha, he's only done one or two clever things in battle, but Krillin is a consistently good tactician, at times outmanoeuvring Roshi, Goku, Piccolo Jr., Nappa and even Freeza.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm curious as to where the perception of Vegeta's "strategical insight" comes from. It certainly wasn't on display in the Saiyan Arc when his whole plan was to kill all the things, somehow find the Dragon Balls, and profit. In the Freeza Arc, he just either ran away from people stronger than him, or got his ass kicked by people stronger than him, because he's too full of himself to bother sensing the guy in front of him. In the Cell Arc, he was a fucking idiot (he "psychologically manipulated" Cell? What? If anything, Cell's the one who made a full out of Vegeta!), and in the Buu Arc, he turned a foolproof curbstomp by Gohan into a risky plan involving himself, Goku, and Buu risking their lives on a plan that could have been easily replaced by letting Gohan break wind in the general direction of the guy they were fighting, and kickstarted the whole arc by being an impatient ass who couldn't bother with wrapping the stuff on Babidi's ship up quickly.

Vegeta's "strategical prowess" isn't "underappreciated." It's nonexistent.

[Captain Space]

Hmm...uh...the Gero thing is valid I guess? He did successfully bluff his way out of that one (presumably not knowing Piccolo could've handled Gero too). Though that was the same scene where Piccolo did a successful fakeout so that doesn't really give points to either over the other.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Buucollo Vs SSj3 Gotenks-serious fight. No games.

Piccolo Babidi arc vs Dabura

fat buu pre mr satan incident vs super buu base

Buuhan Beerus absorbed vs Whis

ssj1 goku vs ssj2 gohan. Both from the Babidi saga.

-Gotenks still wins,Piccolo's streght is such a non factor and it just made him smarter so Gotenks still have the power advantage.
-Dabra turns Piccolo into stone,even without that ability,Dabra still flicks Piccolo's head off.
-Super Buu sneezes in Fat Buu's direction and he disintegrates.
-Buuhans strengh such is a non factor,And Whis is also not a dumb guy who would fall to Buuhan's tricks so Whis spanks him the same how Beerus spanks Gotenks in BOG.
-Gohan has the power advantage here but Goku have the skill,I'd say a 60/40 chance in favor to Gohan.

I'd put piccolo at last slightly above ssj2 adult gohan from Babidi saga . Also anime ssj1 buu saga goku fought mystic gohan's clone,manga wise he' still very OP. I don't think gohan could fight him. what about the whis vs buuhan one?

-Even 6 years after the Buu Saga,Piccolo was still having a hard time against a guy who got one shotted by SSJ Gohan
-Anime does a lot of nonsense things,we had MSSJ Goku got beaten by a non full Power Perfect Cell and then later,In his Base form we can see him fight on par with someone who one shotted Super Perfect Cell,And his SSJ form matches that guy at his full power.If we go by Anime in Cell Saga we got.

Piccolo<MSSJ Trunks<MSSJ Vegeta<Piccolo<Cell Jrs.<MSSJ Goku<MSSJ Gohan<Perfect Cell<Super Perfect Cell<SSJ2 Gohan<Base Goku<Paikuhan<MSSJ Goku<Paikuhan

And by Buu Saga we got.

Good Buu<Grey Buu<Fat Buu<SSJ3 Goku<SSJ Gotenks<Super Buu<SSJ3 Gotenks<Ulimtate Gohan<SSJ Goku=SSJ Vegeta<Buutenks<Buuhan<Vegetto<SSJ2 Vegeta<Good Buu<Kid Buu<SSJ3 Goku,

Um it's buuhan BEERUS absorbed. so it's a question f beers could beat whis with the advantages of regeneration, stretching, candy beam and limited unlimited ki. also I think piccolo is above dabura, he wasn't at full power so none of the power scaling from dabura fits, and it was Babidi's orders to spit on piccolo. and goku in ssj1 I put above ssj2 adult gohan in the tournament saga. as for fat buu vs super buu,both are evil buu + fat buu after losing evil buu. same power level.

[LightBing]

I'm curious as to where the perception of Vegeta's "strategical insight" comes from. It certainly wasn't on display in the Saiyan Arc when his whole plan was to kill all the things, somehow find the Dragon Balls, and profit. In the Freeza Arc, he just either ran away from people stronger than him, or got his ass kicked by people stronger than him, because he's too full of himself to bother sensing the guy in front of him. In the Cell Arc, he was a fucking idiot (he "psychologically manipulated" Cell? What? If anything, Cell's the one who made a full out of Vegeta!), and in the Buu Arc, he turned a foolproof curbstomp by Gohan into a risky plan involving himself, Goku, and Buu risking their lives on a plan that could have been easily replaced by letting Gohan break wind in the general direction of the guy they were fighting, and kickstarted the whole arc by being an impatient ass who couldn't bother with wrapping the stuff on Babidi's ship up quickly.

Vegeta's "strategical prowess" isn't "underappreciated." It's nonexistent.

In the Saiyan Arc he was the strongest. That's what the strong do, kill everything. When he was surpassed he used his Galick Gun threatening the Earth so that Goku would take the attack on. When that failed, he transformed into a Great Ape to try to gain the upper hand again.
He provoked Monster Zarbon enough to have him rush him. Thew sand in his eyes to have the opportunity to unleash a series of attacks that eventually weakened his opponent to give him the win.

He has various moments of stupidity, usually caused by his arrogance and/or pride. But saying he has no strategical capabilities is false.