Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[Mad Swami]

I think this question is really weird to answer. It has so man variables in my opinion. While yes the show's current direction doesn't seem creative really, some ideas here and there show promise.

The problem is that the show's creativity is being buried by all the nostalgic elements constantly being brought back. Look at RF, before the movie was formally announced, the tagline for it was "the worst wish in history being made". There's so much potential in that idea...but instead of doing something creative, they bring back Freeza with it.

That was followed by the Champa arc, which also had a great idea behind it, introducing a new universe...then we're told it'll just be a tournament. We get to the tournament and we're introduced to some very interesting characters, but for some reason were also got stuck with another Saiyan and a Freeza clone, despite just getting a Freeza movie AND arc. When we see U6 again, instead of focusing on someone interesting like Hit or bringing in someone new, we're stuck with 2 other Saiyans, one who's more annoying than Cell arc Vegeta and a Broly clone.

Champa's arc was followed by the Zamasu arc, but instead of actually doing something in U10, we're stuck in the future timeline...because of reasons. Instead of fleshing out Zamasu's character and justifying his actions and beliefs, we're stuck following Trunks and the fits he throws. That's followed by the TOP, which promoted the introduction of new universes fighting it out for survival, only to have the whole threat be a lie and the universes to have the most generic character put on paper. And finally Broly, it was announced to look at the Saiyans history, so everyone was excited to see Toriyama's spin on it...only to get Broly 2.0 and DB Minus.

As shown above, there's plenty of creativity available, what's lacking it talented writers who can move on from DB's past and enter uncharted grounds that push this franchise forward.

100% agree. Things show promise but are restrained by the shackles of nostalgia

[ABED]

100% agree. Things show promise but are restrained by the shackles of nostalgia

That's a bingo. I like Super more than I thought I would even though the ideas are lacking there are quite a few little things and moments that I really enjoy.

I quite like how they dealt with the multi-verse. I know people make a big deal out of exploring it, but really, what would've been that different in essence from when they went to Namek or the beginning of GT. Yeah, technically they are in different universes but it's just other places to go and see. The more exciting ideas are seeing how the characters develop. Say what you will about Cabba, but Vegeta becoming a mentor has me way more excited than other planets.

[Matches Malone]

Say what you will about Cabba, but Vegeta becoming a mentor has me way more excited than other planets.

That's also something I'm interested in, I just hope it's followed up properly.

[Thunderbird]

Very clearly, that Zamasu is not the Zamasu we all know. Different hairstyle, clothes, facial structure, and body proportion. It's not just a change of skin and clothes color

Oh wow that really goes to prove my point. Yeah it's definitely an uncreative design alright.

It's just the same design but tweaked. Changing some things like height, adding shoulder pads and turning the belt around isn't creative.

I could do that. I could take Fuwa's design, make him slimmer, widen his eyes, make him red and remove the belt and it'd be the same.

Zamasu is as uncreative as Champa.

[Thunderbird]

For the love of god, I'm not pointing to a few minor similarities. The structure, as in the fundamental building block of the stories, are awfully similar. Christ, the Namek arc pulls the "take Goku out early and have everyone else try and buy time" beat TWICE.

No you're still making the same mistake of pointing out individual specifics.

The Cell arc as a whole is not like the Frieza arc and that arc is nothing like the Vegeta arc. Every single arc has some similarities and that's fine.

That however is nothing like the Moro arc being a complete retread of Resurrection F and other arcs and two of the other three original arcs made for Super being more Tournaments.

Hmmmm... but Goku did.

Then just came back into and led to the predictable.

Hell, even Hit did.

Purposefully....you're really not helping your argument here.

The strongest didn't win the tournament.

That's right, the weak joke character prevailed over all the strong characters....so exactly like Mr Satan winning in Dragon Ball Z so even that isn't original lol.

More like you thinking DB and OP are the same genre or Pirates shows/movies aren't a genre.

Oh they're definitely the same genre. Just like how "Pirates" isn't a genre. Naruto is also part of the same genre and "Ninjas". Bleach is the same genre and "Soul Reapers". They're all adventure action fantasy series aimed at the same audiences with the same emphasis on fighting and transformations.

[SupremeKai25]

Very clearly, that Zamasu is not the Zamasu we all know. Different hairstyle, clothes, facial structure, and body proportion. It's not just a change of skin and clothes color

Oh wow that really goes to prove my point. Yeah it's definitely an uncreative design alright.

It's just the same design but tweaked. Changing some things like height, adding shoulder pads and turning the belt around isn't creative.

I could do that. I could take Fuwa's design, make him slimmer, widen his eyes, make him red and remove the belt and it'd be the same.

Zamasu is as uncreative as Champa.

Zamasu not having a creative design (which is the point, he's supposed to be *just* another Kai) does not mean that he is a "tall, green Shin". Otherwise Vegeta is just a shorter Goku with spikier hair, and Gohan is literally just Yamcha without his scar.

There is nothing wrong with two characters having some vague similarity. Because ultimately it's so easy to distinguish Zamasu from Shin.

[Thunderbird]

There is nothing wrong with two characters having some vague similarity. Because ultimately it's so easy to distinguish Zamasu from Shin.

If it were just that then it wouldn't be a problem but it ties into the series lack of originality as a whole. So let's run through it again.

Battle of Gods - Was somewhat creative. Beerus and Whis had creative designs. Super Saiyan God was a colour palette swap.

Resurrection F - Same general idea as the old Trunks saga. Brought back Frieza. Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza are colour palette swaps.

Universe 6 - Another Tournament. Includes a colour palette swapped Frieza, another Saiyan and another anthropomorphic animal. Uncreative.

Goku Black - Colour palette swapped Goku. Uncreative Zamasu design. Brought back Trunks. Brought back Vegito. Half assed uncreative Super Saiyan Rage form. Same general idea of Trunks coming back for help after an enemy obsessed with Goku appears in his Timeline. Uncreative.

Tournament of Power - Another Tournament. Uncreative new form for Vegeta. Colour palette swapped new form Goku. Generic designed Jiren. Female Broly. Yet more anthropomorphic animals. Uncreative.

Broly - Reused work from Minus. Brought back Broly. Brought back Gogeta. Nothing creative about this in the slightest.

Moro - Story copied from Namek, Buu and Resurrection F. Another anthropomorphic animal who wants the Dragon Balls for youth. Steals energy to grow stronger like Cell. Same old routine with Goku and Vegeta showing up late. Uncreative.

Seven years of a main series and the most creative story was Battle of Gods which had like 30 minutes worth of story and the rest filler and fighting and maybe half a dozen decently designed original characters. That's really bad.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku Black is still not a color palette swap, sorry. Different clothing and different body structure (he is thinner). A color palette swap means you can switch the color to something else and nothing changes in the overall design, which is not the case here.

An actual palette swap of Goku are the evil clones that Android 21 creates in FighterZ. Not Goku Black.

[ABED]

hahahahahaha, you don't know a damn thing about genre. God, this is hilarious. Ninja movies and TV shows fall into a subgenre, just like pirates, just like doctors, just like lawyers. God, your ignorance on something this simple is incredibly funny. How can someone be this stubborn and ignorant about something they are so clearly wrong about?

I'm done taking you remotely seriously, but I would love to read why ninja and pirate films and TV shows aren't genres or specifically sub-genres.

Anyway, DBZ was running on fumes by the end as it had long since past the logical end point, but it was still enjoyable not because big original ideas. The sci-fi coating of the Cell arc was not what makes it enjoyable, that is assuming you think it so. What makes anything good isn't necessarily its originality but the little moments. I would argue execution of those moments are what makes any story worthwhile not the big stuff like plot twists or structure.

[Thunderbird]

Goku Black is still not a color palette swap, sorry.

You don't need to apologize to me, I didn't make the character but he is a colour palette swap. Being thinner doesn't stop that. Apparently they could take Jiren and make him 10% wider and give him a cape and that would be enough for you to find it creative.

hahahahahaha, you don't know a damn thing about genre.

Says the one who called Ace Ventura a thriller lol.

Ninja movies and TV shows fall into a subgenre, just like pirates, just like doctors, just like lawyers.

Oh so it's now a "subgenre". No you're still wrong on this. Aliens involves aliens, Terminator involves cyborgs and Rambo involves soldiers and guess what? They're all part of the same genre.

Alien, Halloween and Paranormal Activity still all part of the Horror genre despite their significance differences. Dragon Ball and One Piece are definitely the same genre. Not like Ace Ventura and Seven lol.

Anyway, DBZ was running on fumes by the end as it had long since past the logical end point, but it was still enjoyable not because big original ideas.

But not nearly as enjoyable because it's story wasn't nearly as creative and the Fusion saga was a dragged out waste of time. Then you have Dragon Ball Super which is far less creative still. At least even the Buu arc came up with original good looking antagonists and transformations and introduced new long stay protagonist characters like Goten and Videl.

Dragon Ball Super couldn't even do that.

[ABED]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subgenre

Definition of subgenre
: a genre that is part of a larger genre

Jeez, you won't let this go. Sub-genre is a type of genre. It's simply more specific. Like comedy is a genre, but there are dark comedies which are a sub-genre, but still can be called a genre. There are thrillers, but there are more specific types of thrillers like political thriller, psychological thriller, techno-thriller. Just like there are mysteries with subgenres like noir, neo-noir (a subgenre of a subgenre), and whodunnits.

Says the one who called Ace Ventura a thriller lol.

You can't read and it's hilarious. Your constant misquoting is so delicious. Keep digging that hole.

Oh so it's now a "subgenre". No you're still wrong on this. Aliens involves aliens, Terminator involves cyborgs and Rambo involves soldiers and guess what? They're all part of the same genre.

Sure "action" but it's such a broad category that tells you very little, and guess what - films can mix genres! Your stubborn refusal to understand this simple concept is so embarrassing and delightful.

Apparently they could take Jiren and make him 10% wider and give him a cape and that would be enough for you to find it creative.

So what if he does? Are you going to continue to look down on someone over something so trivial?

But not nearly as enjoyable because it's story wasn't nearly as creative and the Fusion saga was a dragged out waste of time.

Pacing is a completely separate issue.

Are you this ignorant and rude on purpose?

[Thunderbird]

Jeez, you won't let this go.

This would be irony seeing as you randomly brought it back around to this.

Sub-genre is a type of genre. It's more specific.

Yet I wasn't talking about specifics was I? You're just all over the place.

Dragon Ball, Naruto and One Piece are all part of the genres just with a different focus be it, Pirates, Martial Artists or Ninjas. That alone does not stop those series from still being action, adventure, fantasy series with emphasis on fighting and comedy aimed at the same age range.

So what if he does? Are you going to continue to look down on someone over something so trivial?

This thread is about Dragon Ball being creatively bankrupt. Unoriginal and uncreative character designs are proof of it being creatively bankrupt. That said that comment was said to him, he can speak for himself. You don't need to hold his hand and speak for him.

[ABED]

I'm not the one continuing to be rude and then doubling, tripling, and quadrupling on some of the most baffling, absurdly ignorant claims.

Dragon Ball, Naruto and One Piece are all part of the genres just with a different focus be it, Pirates, Martial Artists or Ninjas. That alone does not stop those series from still being action, adventure, fantasy series with emphasis on fighting and comedy aimed at the same age range.

But also with vastly different aims. One Piece is an action adventure show that's about the quest and martial arts are just a feature. DB is fundamentally about martial arts. It's a martial arts fantasy. The characters don't have a greater aim than to be the best martial artists they can be, even to the point of recklessly putting the world in danger to test their skills because that's how much it means to them. The ethos of a pirate and martial artist are completely different. It should also be noted that martial arts is an individual pursuit, whereas sailing a ship past a certain size requires a crew, so by its nature, OP is bound to be an ensemble story. These aren't unimportant distinctions. It's vital to understanding the stories.

It's just like how Robocop and Terminator are in the same genre, but have vastly different feels and aims. The former is satirical, and the latter is essentially a horror/monster movie.

You don't need to hold his hand and speak for him.

Fine, but you can stop being talking down to people. There's ZERO justification for that. You can have calm, hell even vigorous debates about this without resorting to talking down to people like you do to several members.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku Black is still not a color palette swap, sorry.

You don't need to apologize to me, I didn't make the character but he is a colour palette swap. Being thinner doesn't stop that. Apparently they could take Jiren and make him 10% wider and give him a cape and that would be enough for you to find it creative.

hahahahahaha, you don't know a damn thing about genre.

Says the one who called Ace Ventura a thriller lol.

Ninja movies and TV shows fall into a subgenre, just like pirates, just like doctors, just like lawyers.

Oh so it's now a "subgenre". No you're still wrong on this. Aliens involves aliens, Terminator involves cyborgs and Rambo involves soldiers and guess what? They're all part of the same genre.

Alien, Halloween and Paranormal Activity still all part of the Horror genre despite their significance differences. Dragon Ball and One Piece are definitely the same genre. Not like Ace Ventura and Seven lol.

Anyway, DBZ was running on fumes by the end as it had long since past the logical end point, but it was still enjoyable not because big original ideas.

But not nearly as enjoyable because it's story wasn't nearly as creative and the Fusion saga was a dragged out waste of time. Then you have Dragon Ball Super which is far less creative still. At least even the Buu arc came up with original good looking antagonists and transformations and introduced new long stay protagonist characters like Goten and Videl.

Dragon Ball Super couldn't even do that.

Actually, yes, being thinner means he's not just a color palette swap, because then you can't have Goku Black just by switching Goku's colors.

This thread is about Dragon Ball being creatively bankrupt. Unoriginal and uncreative character designs are proof of it being creatively bankrupt. That said that comment was said to him, he can speak for himself. You don't need to hold his hand and speak for him.

You're making a forum sound so competitive. Like chill. People are allowed to jump into another coversation's topic. And no, that comment was not said "to me", by virtue of being in a public forum that comment was said "to everyone"; and anyone can jump in.

Also that character design would be unoriginal if there wasn't an in-universe reason for it. Zamasu is a young Supreme Kai, so he's gonna look similar to Shin, another young Supreme Kai. He also looks similar to Anat, another young Supreme Kai. It's almost like young Supreme Kais look similar to each other. Goku Black looks similar to Goku because he's Goku but with black clothes, obviously he's not going to be an eldritch monster with 3 mouths. In both cases, Zamasu and Black are still not simple palette swaps, because that'd mean they don't have anything different aside the color, which is false, as has been pointed out to you several times.

If Zamasu was established as being some weird shapeshifter monster who comes from deep space, then yes, it would be lame if he looked like a generic Kai. But he is literally a Supreme Kai apprentice and a young Kai. How should he look? (and note that he already has different hairstyle, body height, and facial structure from Shin, having a different nose amongst other elements).

And since you keep claiming that the Supreme Kais of the other universes are so different from Shin -- they are not. Some of them are different because they are fat (Zamasu is different because he is taller), one has dotted eyes (having dotted eyes doesn't make you a better character and villain or more creative), another is different because he is old as shit, which Zamasu can't be because he's a Supreme Kai apprentice. But the common denominator is that they all resemble each other in some way, and the same disingenuous argument you made about Zamasu (that he's lame trash because he's just a green, tall Shin), you could make it for the other Kais too with different adjectives.

Because it's almost like they come from the same species. Just like Goku, Bardock, Vegeta, King Vegeta, Goten, Turles, who all have striking similarities to other members of their species -- sometimes, not even because they are related (Goku/Goten and Turles). Did you ever see anyone criticize Bardock by saying that he's not creative because he's literally just Goku with a scar?

[TheNingen]

God, your ignorance on something this simple is incredibly funny.

I'm beginning to believe that the reason he isn't getting it is BECAUSE it's simple and there's something in that premise that isn't registering. Similar to how Toriyama likes simple concepts and reverses. IE strong characters being short and skinny. He's been doing this since early Dragon Ball. The unimposing and skinny characters were usually the strongest. We see this in Roshi, we see it with Frieza, we see it with Vegeta. And all of his short characters look the same too. They're all small with stubby legs and arms. There are literally no exceptions. How someone can be so blatantly ignorant (not you ABED. Hoping I made it obvious enough) to conventions that Toriyama has been using since the series inception baffles me.

Also it's always funny to see how people can't understand how easy something is to criticize an already existing idea or story, but it's difficult to just create something new out of the blue that isn't colored or inspired that something that already exists. Again, boiling an idea down to its simplest and most basic forms can show you that 'originality' is anything but.

[ABED]

Creativity isn't coming up with something out of thin air. It's usually recombining existing elements. Toriyama's work is often taking archetypes, stock characters, genre tropes, and putting them in a blender with his weird sensibilities. You are 100 percent correct.

I would like to point to another member's post about using the appearance of the most well known Kaioshin as a shorthand. That member gets it. It's a quick way to signal the audience who and what Zamasu is. It's very effective storytelling.

[TheNingen]

Creativity isn't coming up with something out of thin air. It's usually recombining existing elements. Toriyama's work is often taking archetypes, stock characters, genre tropes, and putting them in a blender with his weird sensibilities. You are 100 percent correct.

I would like to point to another member's post about using the appearance of the most well known Kaioshin as a shorthand. That member gets it. It's a quick way to signal the audience who and what Zamasu is. It's very effective storytelling.

That, and his color design in his costume is darker than Shin's. Grey and purple as opposed to blue and light green. Shin's wide and more open expressive eyes have also always given me a feeling of naivete for him, which is just about right considering after his introduction at the tournament, he was shown being baffled at just about everything and pretty inept. Zamasu's eyes gave him more of a focused and calculating feeling representative of his character.

Also the Goku Black being a recolor...We all know Goku's most famous costume is where he wears a long sleeve undershirt with a loose dogi and strapless Kaioshin-esque rimmed boots. Goku loves those long sleeved undershirts I'll tell you what. Hell, he even becomes more tan when Zamasu takes his body.

[Grimlock]

Kid Buu is the same as Super Buu except he's a kid.

That would be a foolish thing to say. Calling someone "kid" despite not being it. "Mentally" maybe? Arguably. Though the only difference to me between Buu and Super Buu is that the latter can talk.

Did you ever see anyone criticize Bardock by saying that he's not creative because he's literally just Goku with a scar?

Yes, a lot. Fortunately not so much these days.

[WittyUsername]

As far as Majin Boo is concerned, Super Boo has never been a particularly interesting version of the character. By the time he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo, he basically just becomes your standard post-Piccolo Daimao Dragon Ball villain.

[TheNingen]

Kid Buu is the same as Super Buu except he's a kid.

That would be a foolish thing to say. Calling someone "kid" despite not being it. "Mentally" maybe? Arguably. Though the only difference to me between Buu and Super Buu is that the latter can talk.

Did you ever see anyone criticize Bardock by saying that he's not creative because he's literally just Goku with a scar?

Yes, a lot. Fortunately not so much these days.

I don't want to be a dick to you, Grim, but that part of my post was supposed to be sarcastic in response to Thunderbird's "point" about palette swaps and forms and designs are nothing different about the character except for a color swap and other minor aesthetic differences. So I was sarcastically saying that Kid Buu and Super Buu are the same even though they're not.