New Special: Canon or Not?

[Forgotten Hero]

Plus, the manga is Toriyama's work: his hand and mind. The manga, in the case of Dragonball, is the first reference fans should look to.
Toriyama has also spoken out on things that weren't canon yet and made them canon either by word or in the actual manga. Bardock is a great example of this. Check Daizenshuu EX's tidbit of Bardock for more info on this matter.

[Gozar]

The amount of thought put into a cartoon that is a light and humorous adventure first, martial arts action series second, and a dramatic sci-fi/magical story last

I've just got to comment. Though there's quite a bit of humor always. Once you get to the nitty gritty of the Saiya-jin Saga it clearly takes a turn. It gets much more action based. I mean characters dying left and right, bloody battles. It ain't exactlly Goku Vs. Jackie Chun anymore.

[Forgotten Hero]

The amount of thought put into a cartoon that is a light and humorous adventure first, martial arts action series second, and a dramatic sci-fi/magical story last

I've just got to comment. Though there's quite a bit of humor always. Once you get to the nitty gritty of the Saiya-jin Saga it clearly takes a turn. It gets much more action based. I mean characters dying left and right, bloody battles. It ain't exactlly Goku Vs. Jackie Chun anymore.

"...because I hadn't smiled since Gohan-san was killed by the artificial humans three years ago."
It gets that serious. But it is a turn in the series I appreciate and love.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

The amount of thought put into a cartoon that is a light and humorous adventure first, martial arts action series second, and a dramatic sci-fi/magical story last

I've just got to comment. Though there's quite a bit of humor always. Once you get to the nitty gritty of the Saiya-jin Saga it clearly takes a turn. It gets much more action based. I mean characters dying left and right, bloody battles. It ain't exactlly Goku Vs. Jackie Chun anymore.

"...because I hadn't smiled since Gohan-san was killed by the artificial humans three years ago."
It gets that serious. But it is a turn in the series I appreciate and love.

Sure it gets serious. Sure seriousness comes to to forefront and is the focus during parts of the series. It's great that the series has that kind of range and versatility.

But it's still Shonen, and overall it's about adventure and fighting new challenges.

[Forgotten Hero]

Sure it gets serious. Sure seriousness comes to to forefront and is the focus during parts of the series. It's great that the series has that kind of range and versatility.

But it's still Shonen, and overall it's about adventure and fighting new challenges.

Indeed, Goku is still a goofy ball!
VEGETA: "Hold it, Kakarrot! Are you training again?... (gasp)... Kakarrot, are you...?"
GOKU: "(inaudible hush)... See you later, Vegeta."

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Sure it gets serious. Sure seriousness comes to to forefront and is the focus during parts of the series. It's great that the series has that kind of range and versatility.

But it's still Shonen, and overall it's about adventure and fighting new challenges.

Indeed, Goku is still a goofy ball!
VEGETA: "Hold it, Kakarrot! Are you training again?... (gasp)... Kakarrot, are you...?"
GOKU: "(inaudible hush)... See you later, Vegeta."

I'm not going to let Toei define what Goku is for me. As much as I don't mind and enjoy GT, it's not how I feel it "really" ends.

As far as I'm concerned, it ends with Goku flying off to train the reincarnation of Buu. So that this kid can become strong, so that Goku can fight him and perhaps be rivaled and exceeded in strength. That would be the most exciting thing to Goku, the thrill of an adventure or a challenge.

[Forgotten Hero]

Oh, DBZ ends at the same point for me. But I thought that quote fit exactly how Goku is still a silly boy, even in scary times.

I hate GT by the way.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Oh, DBZ ends at the same point for me. But I thought that quote fit exactly how Goku is still a silly boy, even in scary times.

I hate GT by the way.

Oh? I was sure that was sarcasm! =p

[Forgotten Hero]

Oh, DBZ ends at the same point for me. But I thought that quote fit exactly how Goku is still a silly boy, even in scary times.

I hate GT by the way.

Oh? I was sure that was sarcasm! =p

Not at all.
I hate when tell at school how they use to like Dragonball and how cool GT was. Then they ask if I like GT as well...I bite my tongue!

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Oh, DBZ ends at the same point for me. But I thought that quote fit exactly how Goku is still a silly boy, even in scary times.

I hate GT by the way.

Oh? I was sure that was sarcasm! =p

Not at all.
I hate when tell at school how they use to like Dragonball and how cool GT was. Then they ask if I like GT as well...I bite my tongue!

I like GT for what it is, and I absolutely love some aspects of it. I just wouldn't ever use an example from it as something concrete, because the thing isn't written in the same way as Toriyama's stuff.

Back on topic, the Special is fun, and it feels so much like Dragon Ball that I'm going to believe that this is what really happened. As far as I can tell, Toriyama feels like this happened in his view of the Dragon World. Unless his involvement is far less than I previously thought, in which case I really do commend whoever wrote the script on getting the feel of Dragon Ball down in a way that few if any of the movies were able to do.

[Acid_Reign]

Yes actually, because it's technical. To a rather significant degree, I think. The amount of thought put into a cartoon that is a light and humorous adventure first, martial arts action series second, and a dramatic sci-fi/magical story last...is certainly a bit much. It's just something that doesn't really need so much intensive thought, and I think that the obvious reality of Dragon Ball can be obscured by too much thought sometimes.

It really doesn’t require that much thought on my part. I work with video—I know these things offhand. I had already looked at the metadata out of curiosity, and the specs happened to support my argument, so I presented them. It’s not like it came out of nowhere: the terminology was challenged on a technicality, so you better believe the debate is going to get technical from then on out.

[Miracles]

Plus, the manga is Toriyama's work: his hand and mind.

"Fusion" wasn't Toriyama's idea, I guess it ain't canon.
Seriously, If the special continues from the actual story [Manga], which it does, then it is continuity, hence canon.

[Captain-Sora]

Plus, the manga is Toriyama's work: his hand and mind.

"Fusion" wasn't Toriyama's idea, I guess it ain't canon.
Seriously, If the special continues from the actual story [Manga], which it does, then it is continuity, hence canon.

Okay, these days, people always never use "canon" right. When in manga discussions, it's always about "the author doing it which makes it canon."

It's not just about that, it's about the fact of following a story without contradictions as well, in this case, the special has a few such as Gregory existing when he's a filler character for example.

Look at One Piece's special as well, it's based on a pilot chapter done by Oda before he started One Piece, are we to consider it canon even though it was done by Oda? No, because it doesn't exactly fit anywhere since the story doesn't contain many timeskips and such to fit anything in, it's always following the present time. Right now, the whole crew's separated and I have a feeling that once they all finally get back together again, they'll probably gain another crew member or some obvious changes that will take place might happen and will cross out that OP special from being canon.

This DBZ special is about as canon as Neko Majin Z. >_>

[Dayspring]

This DBZ special is about as canon as Neko Majin Z. >_>

Am I the only one who loves how this statement works as valid supporting evidence for both side of the argument?

[Maphisto86]

This DBZ special is about as canon as Neko Majin Z. >_>

Am I the only one who loves how this statement works as valid supporting evidence for both side of the argument?

Nope.

I guess there is no real conclusive answer unless Toei or Mr. Toriyama himself decides to make some judgment on it, wait another eight years maybe. . . It's really subjective for now since one the one hand it is canon, it can easily take place within the manga timeline and nothing (as I can see) contradicts what happens at the very end of the series. On the other hand, the script was not written by Akira Toriyama and was made as a stand alone feature much like the movies where. In fact this special kind of resembles the TV Specials, which although canon for the most part, contain elements that can be seen as non-canon from what is seen in the manga version of those stories.

[Onikage725]

It's not just about that, it's about the fact of following a story without contradictions as well, in this case, the special has a few such as Gregory existing when he's a filler character for example.

Again, that's why I think the tiered structure of the Star Wars universe is more fitting to use than, say, a biblical one for Dragon Ball. As a fully animated feature voiced by the series' cast, I would say that the special lends itself to comparison with the anime series more so than the manga. Therefore, Gregory would be about as canon as something with Star Wars' 'Expanded Universe." You wouldn't necessarily bring him up when discussing the original material, but within the realm of the anime he is an accepted element that doesn't contradict the manga or harm story integrity.

This special is an offshoot of the anime, so the existence of an anime character alone doesn't exclude it in my eyes.

[temujin]

Err, as much as I love the man's work, Toriyama contradicted himself quite a bit. He even admitted as much (I can't provide direct quotes here, but I'm sure someone else can come up with something). So, using contradictions as a reason to disregard the Daizenshuu isn't a very good reason.

Besides, honestly, who is to say that Toriyama didn't simply voice things that he never put into the manga? Tenshinhan being descended from aliens for example. It could have been notated on concept sketches and never been said in the manga, or Toriyama could have made it up on the spot when asked by the authors. Who knows? His characters, his choices.

Correct!

Also if Toriyama didn't want something in the Daizenshuu he could have had it pulled.

Obvious!

So because Toriyama contradicts himself that means it's ok for other people to make stuff up? These are the same people who created "Yamcha>Super Perfect Cell".

How do you know they made stuff up?
Nothing suggests that they made stuff up, specially about Tenshinhan's origins, considering that there is zero information about his race or background in the manga.
If there isn't a contradiction between manga and daizenshuu people should follow that official information,however your are free to have an opinion about it and not follow daizenshuu.
Just because yamcha defeated Olibu doesn't mean that he became stronger than Super Perfect Cell.
Actually, Olibu is weaker than a regular ssj eventually close to one,but that's all.