Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Cold Skin]

Plus, Freeza blew up Namek when he was losing against Goku during the Freeza saga. So it's not like him blowing up Earth is unexpected.

Judging my the way it's written, it seems very unexpected.
At worst, people would expect him to raise his hand, concentrate a ball, say "can you survive in space?" and throw it down from the air. More than enough time to intervene if you expect such a trick.
But here, Freezer is apparently on his knees and hands to the ground, with a blast suddenly coming out of his hand without any kind of warning, with the beam being hidden through the ground and impossible to intercept.

Nobody could see that one coming. Aside from Vegeta against Reacum, I think it's mostly unprecedented to have a character throwing a surprise blast without charging it first and saying "Here's what I'm gonna do now, you're caught my surprise, aren't you?" - and even Vegeta actually moved his arms to Reacum's face to blast him.

Again, compare the way Freezer destroyed Namek, in which case Goku could have easily interrupted him if he expected that kind of reaction, and the way it is written for this movie.
It really seems as if you were The Flash fighting a guy equiped with a bomb, and you'd expect that if he tries something, he will try to reach for a button, leaving you more than enough time to prevent it if it happens, except that in the end, all it takes to trigger it is actually for him to blink twice: no way to see that coming even when you expected him to do something to trigger the bomb.

If you're watching if someone will make a dangerous move and without them even moving it just goes blast-BOOM, anybody would be caught by surprise.
Very clever twist of events here, just by reading the recap, I could imagine how shocking the scene is.

[miguelnuva1]

Of course Goku wouldn't catch up to Beerus's 75 million years of training... Goku kinda can't live for 75 million years.

Em... He was granted a body when he died, trained in the Other World and he was just fine. So him saying that he would never catch up to Beerus doesn't make a single bit of sense.

If I were u I wouldnt believe EVERYTHING Goku says, like AT Goku hates acting big and tough which is similar to him (lol) when he and Vegeta were fighting at ssj2 and majin form he said they are even but we all know he has a ssj3 and just doesnt want to use it for Vegeta's sake, he said he couldnt beat fat buu but later admitted he could have destroyed him, Goku contradicts himself a lot.

Goku with 7 years of training in other world just barely passed up Kid Gohan save ssj3 so Goku maybe could have caught Beerus but it was such a far off goal to reach it wold have taken thousands of years to reach. Plus it was impossible for a living Goku to catch Beerus before dying and this is assuming Beerus doesn't train.

[Mystic Tien]

I already answered to this a few pages ago, so I'll answer to only some points.

Does he need to know about everything that happens in the entire universe?

He specifically asked Whis about Frieza and Planet Vegeta, this means that yes, he needs to know it.

Why would he bring him up? That version of Buu wasn't a threat.

Frieza wasn't either, yet Beerus was interested in him, and brought him up, and Whis did the same as well.

Okay, this is a somewhat valid objection. But there was never any proof he couldn't get one before this

But there was. In the whole manga only Gohan got huge rage boosts, no one else ever did. Vegeta didn't get a rage boost, when Trunks died, nor he did when he was fighting for his family twice in Buu arc. That means that Vegeta can't receive rage boosts, and that means that it is a plot hole in a movie. I don't see how this is the only valid objection, though, because others are as well.

Because a villain has never been arrogant or overstated their capabilities before, right? Besides, I got the impression he was talking about ki sensing, as he said that right after Vegeta suddenly noticed him at the party and was surprised he was there.

If he was indeed speaking about Ki sensing, why he said "Ki" instead? It doesn't make any sense. It would make sense him saying "It seems that you, mortals, can't sense a presence of deities", a phrase which was said in this very movie before, or something like "It seems, that you, mortals, can't sense Godly energy", but the way Beerus phrased it, it makes it look as if he said, that saiyans', Earthlings', or simply mortals' Ki doesn't work against deities.

Well Shenron is a reality warper who can grant wishes, bring back the dead, and restore destroyed planets. It makes sense that he can also acquire knowledge other characters can't.

Yet we know from the manga that Shenron doesn't know everyone. It is a fact from the manga. When Shenron was summoned by Piccolo Daimao, not only he didn't recognize him as Namekian, he didn't even recognize him as a look-alike of his creator Kami. If he even doesn't know as much, then he can't possibly know who the heck is Beerus, about which no one besides Kaio and Kaioshin (and obviously Whis) knows.

You don't know he never met Freeza in his final form.

But I know. In the manga Frieza said that he never has shown his third form to anyone prior.

I also can't understand why people are trying to defend the flaws of BoG and this movie. They clearly have flaws. If something was stated in the manga, or was shown in the manga, that contradicts information from the movies, or if something happens in the movies, which never happened in the manga before under the same conditions without any explanation, then these are plotholes/contradictions/flaws, whatever you wish to call them. We may create excuses for most of them, if we really want, but these are just this - excuses, wild guess, unless it was specifically said, shown, hinted or made clear what exactly happened, it is no more than wild guesses.

[Metrite]

The one and only thing that bugs me about this movie is the "new" ssj form. It feels like the most superfluous transformation of all time. It feels like you could literally just not have this in the movie at all and keep everything else 100% the exact same. There's no build up to it, it doesn't really "achieve" anything, and it must not even be a very big boost in power. (If comparing Goku to Beerus is like 6 to 10 then that makes it a 65% increase at most, lest it put Goku ahead of Beerus already.)

This new form is also the least original of all time. (at least ssjg changed the eyes and body some) Did Toriyama get bugged to include another new transformation to market more toys/cards, but, having no plans for such, he just takes ol' ssj Goku/Vegeta and changes their hair color and figures that'll do? I personally think gold and red both look way better than blue on Goku. Maybe it would have been better to make it ssj with red hair instead, and then it could be explained as being what Goku subconsciously did at the end of BoG to stop Beerus's last attack. At least then it would somewhat tie into things.

After the interview where Toriyama said Goku would just fight in his normal and ssj forms, I felt like it was a good route to take rather than go the way of countless fan boys dreams of ssj5 and beyond. Since ssj is iconic, it could stick around for times where Goku gets riled up, but is ultimately just there for the nostalgia. Now instead we find out there can be even more transformations. So does this mean he could turn into a blue ssj2/3 also? And what could come after that?... Oh, of course! Goku eventually finds out that by gather 6 ssj gods and holding hands as they all transfer their godly power, Goku can become a "ssj god god". It's like his normal form but way thinner and with white hair. Then he eventually finds he can combine it with ssj, making ssj with black hair, and the cycle continues!

[Mystic Tien]

Of course Goku wouldn't catch up to Beerus's 75 million years of training... Goku kinda can't live for 75 million years.

If I were u I wouldnt believe EVERYTHING Goku says, like AT Goku hates acting big and tough which is similar to him (lol) when he and Vegeta were fighting at ssj2 and majin form he said they are even but we all know he has a ssj3 and just doesnt want to use it for Vegeta's sake, he said he couldnt beat fat buu but later admitted he could have destroyed him, Goku contradicts himself a lot.

Goku with 7 years of training in other world just barely passed up Kid Gohan save ssj3 so Goku maybe could have caught Beerus but it was such a far off goal to reach it wold have taken thousands of years to reach. Plus it was impossible for a living Goku to catch Beerus before dying and this is assuming Beerus doesn't train.

But Goku achieved SSJ3, the feat, that neither Vegeta, nor Gohan ever accomplished. And he did it by himself without any rage boosts and potential unlock, which is very impressive by itself.

Goku's words make it look as he never will be able to do so. And this is my problem. Not even if it is a fact, or not, rather than Goku saying this thing.

Plus I am pretty sure that Beerus doesn't train anymore, he seems to enjoy sleeping.

[saunasolmu]

I also can't understand why people are trying to defend the flaws of BoG and this movie. They clearly have flaws. If something was stated in the manga, or was shown in the manga, that contradicts information from the movies, or if something happens in the movies, which never happened in the manga before under the same conditions without any explanation, then these are plotholes/contradictions/flaws, whatever you wish to call them. We may create excuses for most of them, if we really want, but these are just this - excuses, wild guess, unless it was specifically said, shown, hinted or made clear what exactly happened, it is no more than wild guesses.

Yeah, the manga is full of those contradictions as well. Like Goku just getting Super Saiyan out of nowhere when he didn't get it before when Krillin was violently killed by a villain. Nothing that you said is actually a plot hole though. It's just something that you don't think makes sense, but it doesn't mean it's a plot hole.

[Sandubadear]

As he begins to lose the battle, Goku compliments how amazing Freeza is, to have come so far when it took him so long to get this strong.

Can I ask again who's the one losing here? At first I thought it was Frieza, but the way it's written implies otherwise.

[Mystic Tien]

I also can't understand why people are trying to defend the flaws of BoG and this movie. They clearly have flaws. If something was stated in the manga, or was shown in the manga, that contradicts information from the movies, or if something happens in the movies, which never happened in the manga before under the same conditions without any explanation, then these are plotholes/contradictions/flaws, whatever you wish to call them. We may create excuses for most of them, if we really want, but these are just this - excuses, wild guess, unless it was specifically said, shown, hinted or made clear what exactly happened, it is no more than wild guesses.

Yeah, the manga is full of those contradictions as well. Like Goku just getting Super Saiyan out of nowhere when he didn't get it before when Krillin was violently killed by a villain.

He didn't have enough strength. It is simple.

Nothing that you said is actually a plot hole though. It's just something that you don't think makes sense, but it doesn't mean it's a plot hole.

Then what is a plot hole if not a thing which doesn't make sense?

A gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plot_hole

If all the things I listed make sense for you, then explain it.

And yes, manga has enough plot holes. Here are some:

"The Dragon Balls got activated after 8 months instead of 12.
Goku believes that he can bring Kami back to life with the Dragon Balls, but later, he reveals that if Kami dies, Shenlong dies.
Future Trunks warns Goku about Artificial Humans #19 & #20, instead of #17 & #18.
Cell's head gets blown away (along with his whole upper body) by Goku's Kamehameha & regenerates from the rest of his body, but later he reveals that he can't regenerate if his nucleus in his head is destroyed.
Super Saiyan Gohan manages to pull the Z-Sword, a feat that none of the Kaioshin were strong enough to achieve. However, South Kaioshin is implied to be much stronger than SS Gohan much later."

There is also the wrong date of Planet Vegeta destruction, as it couldn't have possibly happened 30 years ago from Goku's fight with Frieza on Namek, which I already mentioned a few pages ago. Piccolo being surprised that he was an alien in DBZ, as well as Kami being surprised as well, while he guessed as much in DB, and was chatting with Piccolo Jr in alien language. Frieza's claim about being the strongest in the universe is just a simple lie now. DB Minus has a ton of contradictions with DBZ and Bardock: Father of Goku. And at least a few with manga (Raditz saying that Goku was sent to Earth to destroy it, Raditz remembering Goku as an infant, while he was sent to Earth as 3 years old kid, Raditz telling Goku about Oozaru transformation and the moon, while in DBM Gine and Bardock warned him about it and told, that they would warn Raditz too). There is also brother of Vegeta, while Vegeta stated in the manga that only him, Nappa, Raditz and Goku survived.

[bubibartra]

But Goku achieved SSJ3, the feat, that neither Vegeta, nor Gohan ever accomplished. And he did it by himself without any rage boosts and potential unlock, which is very impressive by itself.

Goku's words make it look as he never will be able to do so. And this is my problem. Not even if it is a fact, or not, rather than Goku saying this thing.

Plus I am pretty sure that Beerus doesn't train anymore, he seems to enjoy sleeping.

SSJ3 has a great advantage if you're dead.

Seven years with a body that does not waste energy, made this possible. Vegeta and Gohan not have this. The SSJ3 requires a lot of energy. much much easier if you have a dead body and not spend energy. Gotenks is a fussión,multiply ki...

Goku training in the same conditions as Vegeta has the same transformation as Vegeta, in another hand, if Gohan will train like his father and Vegeta under the same conditions, who does not, he always may have advantage over both.

[Sora Saiyan]

Re: Age of Planet Vegeta's destruction

In the manga we were never given an age for the destruction of planet Vegeta, and in minus we have Goku at 2 going on 3, so that looks like age 739-740. Beerus going asleep when he did fits in with Toriyamas version but not the anime's.

[Mystic Tien]

But Goku achieved SSJ3, the feat, that neither Vegeta, nor Gohan ever accomplished. And he did it by himself without any rage boosts and potential unlock, which is very impressive by itself.

Goku's words make it look as he never will be able to do so. And this is my problem. Not even if it is a fact, or not, rather than Goku saying this thing.

Plus I am pretty sure that Beerus doesn't train anymore, he seems to enjoy sleeping.

SSJ3 has a great advantage if you're dead.

Seven years with a body that does not waste energy, made this possible. Vegeta and Gohan not have this. The SSJ3 requires a lot of energy. much much easier if you have a dead body and not spend energy. Gotenks is a fussión,multiply ki...

Goku training in the same conditions as Vegeta has the same transformation as Vegeta, in another hand, if Gohan will train like his father and Vegeta under the same conditions, who does not, he always may have advantage over both.

Exactly. And Goku achieved it after dying. This means once he dies by natural cause, or from a fight, he will be able to progress immensely and eventually catch up with Beerus.

I don't think so, because Gohan barely surpassed Goku during their training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, if he didn't let his emotions out when Android 16 died, he wouldn't have transformed into SSJ2. Most of Gohan's strength is in his hidden potential (hence why he got so much stronger after Potential Unlock) and in rage boosts. He doesn't become so much stronger than Goku after simple training.

[Sandubadear]

Seven years with a body that does not waste energy, made this possible.

Dead bodies do waste energy, like when Vegeta fought Kid Buu and his energy ran out.

[Mystic Tien]

Re: Age of Planet Vegeta's destruction

In the manga we were never given an age for the destruction of planet Vegeta, and in minus we have Goku at 2 going on 3, so that looks like age 739-740. Beerus going asleep when he did fits in with Toriyamas version but not the anime's.

We were actually given an age in the manga. In 303 chapter of manga it was stated by Frieza that he destroyed Planet Vegeta 30 years ago.

And:
1. It doesn't make any sense.
2. It doesn't fit with DBM, obviously.
3. It doesn't fit with BoG as well

[TheRed259]

I hope that they will leak some scenes soon enough just like last time with Battle of Gods (Goku SSJ3 Vs Beerus, Beerus Vs Z-fighters).

[Mystic Tien]

I hope that they will leak some scenes soon enough just like last time with Battle of Gods (Goku SSJ3 Vs Beerus, Beerus Vs Z-fighters).

I hope so as well. As for now we didn't even see Blue SSJG So it is hard to tell how it looks in an actual movie.

[SansrivaaL]

Goku with 7 years of training in other world just barely passed up Kid Gohan save ssj3 so Goku maybe could have caught Beerus but it was such a far off goal to reach it wold have taken thousands of years to reach. Plus it was impossible for a living Goku to catch Beerus before dying and this is assuming Beerus doesn't train.

But Goku achieved SSJ3, the feat, that neither Vegeta, nor Gohan ever accomplished. And he did it by himself without any rage boosts and potential unlock, which is very impressive by itself.

Goku's words make it look as he never will be able to do so. And this is my problem. Not even if it is a fact, or not, rather than Goku saying this thing.

Plus I am pretty sure that Beerus doesn't train anymore, he seems to enjoy sleeping.

I dont know if Goku meant that since I barely take anything he says seriously after contradicting himself a lot but in any case lets say for instance he was serious that he wouldnt be able to reach Beerus level but thats him assuming on doing it alone, if Whis is there to teach him or actually someone that would train him above Beerus level I dont see that being impossible anymore in his case since Saiyans possibly have no limitations and will always have a zenkai boost, AT even said on an interview ''Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables'' so I still see Goku's line of him not being able to reach that level is him being just normal Goku that doesnt think highly of himself and acts tough.

[bubibartra]

Seven years with a body that does not waste energy, made this possible.

Dead bodies do waste energy, like when Vegeta fought Kid Buu and his energy ran out.

vegeta, fighting in SSJ2 and loses energy, but as in any battle being alive.

SSJ3, according Goku´s words consume a lot of energy and shortens life, so is not simply energy, lost vital energy, dead can not lost vital energy... Hence it is so difficult use SSJ3 being alive, SSJ2 not do that,

[Cold Skin]

I find it weird that some people consider the blue-haired Super Saiyan as a "new transformation", saying "why do we have to have a new transformation when we already had SSG last time?".
It is merely an update of the very same Super Saiyan form, a side effect that has changed its appearance due to having Godly energy flowing in your body now.

It is not meant to be a new transformation, it is meant to be an update of the Super Saiyan look to convey the fact that their inner energy has changed because they are now in touch with a new Godly realm.
It's as if you added a blue colorant to vodka: you're not going to consider this a new beverage, it's just vodka with something added that has altered its color (or lack thereof), but it's certainly not "another new drink".

[rereboy]

I find it weird that some people consider the blue-haired Super Saiyan as a "new transformation", saying "why do we have to have a new transformation when we already had SSG last time?".
It is merely an update of the very same Super Saiyan form, a side effect that has changed its appearance due to having Godly energy flowing in your body now.

It is not meant to be a new transformation, it is meant to be an update of the Super Saiyan look to convey the fact that their inner energy has changed because they are now in touch with a new Godly realm.
It's as if you added a blue colorant to vodka: you're not going to consider this a new beverage, it's just vodka with something added that has altered its color (or lack thereof), but it's certainly not "another new drink".

Using that logic, you could say SSJ2 is an update on SSJ1, since its basically the same thing, only a few details changed in its appearence because they are now in touch with a new SSJ realm.

[bubibartra]

I find it weird that some people consider the blue-haired Super Saiyan as a "new transformation", saying "why do we have to have a new transformation when we already had SSG last time?".
It is merely an update of the very same Super Saiyan form, a side effect that has changed its appearance due to having Godly energy flowing in your body now.

It is not meant to be a new transformation, it is meant to be an update of the Super Saiyan look to convey the fact that their inner energy has changed because they are now in touch with a new Godly realm.
It's as if you added a blue colorant to vodka: you're not going to consider this a new beverage, it's just vodka with something added that has altered its color (or lack thereof), but it's certainly not "another new drink".

Transformation is the MSSJG, the blue hair is simply a consequence of MSSJG.