Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[ABED]

He came to Earth and he didn't exactly do anything that was much worse than Piccolo and his "family".

Piccolo is in a different boat, he's the offspring/reincarnation of Kami's evil incarnate. At one point, he was literally pure evil. He's a demon who was able to break away from his race. Vegeta and the Saiyans were fully conscious of their actions.

Had he not bumped his head, Goku would've pretty much been exactly the same

That's more of a case of brainwashing than instinct, wasn't it?

Lust for killing isn't the same as great desire for battle.

[DBZAOTA482]

Nah, I think the Saiyans are savaged by nature however they are not sadists.

I don't think Goku would be the same as Vegeta. Vegeta was a sociopath.

[dbzfan7]

Nah, I think the Saiyans are savaged by nature however they are not sadists.

I don't think Goku would be the same as Vegeta. Vegeta was a sociopath.

Eh they kinda are. They do seem to have some comradeship, but when it comes to the genocide of other races, they enjoy themselves.

I do agree it's unlikely Goku would be just as bad as Vegeta was.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I still find it silly Vegeta is even classified as pure or good by that SSJ God ritual. Not doing any bad for a while doesn't mean you become good. I don't think he really gives a shit about anyone beyond his own family and "Friends" if he even has any beyond Goku. He's also not really looking to do any good, and doesn't seem very remorseful. I think the only times I can count are when he says sorry to Gohan and when he revives the people since his killings. Even then that last one could be just to bring back more people..

He also cares about the Earth. At the time of BoG, he was a better protector than Goku, since he was willing to put his pride away for the sake of the Earth (something he couldn't do in Boo arc). He is the same in GT as well.

[dbzfan7]

I still find it silly Vegeta is even classified as pure or good by that SSJ God ritual. Not doing any bad for a while doesn't mean you become good. I don't think he really gives a shit about anyone beyond his own family and "Friends" if he even has any beyond Goku. He's also not really looking to do any good, and doesn't seem very remorseful. I think the only times I can count are when he says sorry to Gohan and when he revives the people since his killings. Even then that last one could be just to bring back more people..

He also cares about the Earth. At the time of BoG, he was a better protector than Goku, since he was willing to put his pride away for the sake of the Earth (something he couldn't do in Boo arc). He is the same in GT as well.

I'd say it's more for his family than that. If earth goes, so does his family. He simply doesn't want to get them killed. He's also doesn't give two shits about his wrong doings and doesn't look at all to right them. If anyone asked him about his horrible deeds, he wouldn't really care about them. Mellowing out a killer does not make them pure. They just stopped killing.

[ABED]

Nah, I think the Saiyans are savaged by nature however they are not sadists.
I don't think Goku would be the same as Vegeta. Vegeta was a sociopath.

Just being pedantic, but I think Vegeta falls more into the psychopath category.

[rereboy]

Nah, I think the Saiyans are savaged by nature however they are not sadists.

I don't think Goku would be the same as Vegeta. Vegeta was a sociopath.

Eh they kinda are. They do seem to have some comradeship, but when it comes to the genocide of other races, they enjoy themselves.

I do agree it's unlikely Goku would be just as bad as Vegeta was.

Humans like to hunt too. Saiyans are worse but still, humans aren't that much better.

[dbzfan7]

Nah, I think the Saiyans are savaged by nature however they are not sadists.

I don't think Goku would be the same as Vegeta. Vegeta was a sociopath.

Eh they kinda are. They do seem to have some comradeship, but when it comes to the genocide of other races, they enjoy themselves.

I do agree it's unlikely Goku would be just as bad as Vegeta was.

Humans like to hunt too. Saiyans are worse but still, humans aren't that much better.

Unless humans start going interstellar and bringing genocide to other planets, I wouldn't think so. Saiyans would considering it feeds their fighting appetite, and literal appetite since they tend to eat the folks of other planets.

[ABED]

Humans like to hunt too. Saiyans are worse but still, humans aren't that much better.

Hunting for food is different than slaughtering beings with volitional consciousness.

[rereboy]

Unless humans start going interstellar and bringing genocide to other planets, I wouldn't think so. Saiyans would considering it feeds their fighting appetite, and literal appetite since they tend to eat the folks of other planets.

We don't have to go to other planets. Colonialism and conquests are basically what the Saiyans did. And that wasn't even that long ago. The saiyans take it a step further by killing all of the population, but besides that... And even today the strongest reason why wars and conquests are rare nowadays is more thanks to the threat of nuclear weapons than because our mentality evolved.

And what if humans had intersellar travel? Is there any doubt that we would be off exploiting all the planets we could find?

Humans like to hunt too. Saiyans are worse but still, humans aren't that much better.

Hunting for food is different than slaughtering beings with volitional consciousness.

When did I ever mention "for food"? Humans like to hunt. Period.

[ABED]

Unless humans start going interstellar and bringing genocide to other planets, I wouldn't think so. Saiyans would considering it feeds their fighting appetite, and literal appetite since they tend to eat the folks of other planets.

We don't have to go to other planets. Colonialism and ancient conquests are basically what the Saiyans did. And that wasn't even that long ago. The saiyans take it a step further by killing all of the population, but besides that...

And what if humans had intersellar travel? Is there any doubt that we would be off exploiting all the planets we could find?

While it's a huge part of human history, not all humans were part of that, while the vast majority (if not all) Saiyans make it a way of life. If we mastered interstellar travel, by then it would require us to get our crap in order just to create the technology.

When did I ever mention "for food"? Humans like to hunt. Period.

So you categorize an ENTIRE species because a few enjoy hunting for sport? There are so many thing wrongs with this statement. Not all humans enjoy hunting, but other than Goku, all Saiyans were butchers.

And even today the strongest reason why wars and conquests are rare nowadays is more thanks to the threat of nuclear weapons than because our mentality evolved.

That's conjecture. Also, there are radically different cultures. Some are more barbaric than others and more prone to trying to spread their views by force. Other cultures, even those that are a mixed bag, are far more peaceful. I don't see why you take the actions of a couple individuals and use that as an indictment of the entire human race.

[rereboy]

While it's a huge part of human history, not all humans were part of that, while the vast majority (if not all) Saiyans make it a way of life. If we mastered interstellar travel, by then it would require us to get our crap in order just to create the technology.

And this is where I point you towards the various times I stated that the saiyans are worse. My point is that it doesn't make sense to think that humans are that much better than them.

And no, technical and scientific knowledge has nothing to do with policy and mentality. The nazis had incredible scientists who did amazing things from the technical point of view prior to and during the war.

[ABED]

While it's a huge part of human history, not all humans were part of that, while the vast majority (if not all) Saiyans make it a way of life. If we mastered interstellar travel, by then it would require us to get our crap in order just to create the technology.

And this is where I point you towards the various times I stated that the saiyans are worse. My point is that it doesn't make sense to think that humans are that much better than them.

And no, technical and scientific knowledge has nothing to do with policy and mentality. The nazis had incredible scientists who did amazing things from the technical point of view prior to and during the war.

Yes it does, we are WAY better than them. Many of us learn, the Saiyans were always violent.

The Nazi's used the technology made possible by the west, and your example is an oversimplification of Germany. They weren't always socialists. There's a reason violent cultures are very poor. Violence wastes time and people. The more peaceful cultures are the one's that allow people to use their minds towards far more productive purposes. It sure as hell won't be the Middle East that creates interstellar travel.

[rereboy]

So you categorize an ENTIRE species because a few enjoy hunting for sport? There are so many thing wrongs with this statement. Not all humans enjoy hunting, but other than Goku, all Saiyans were butchers.

Saiyans, if they were a real race of people in the real world, would also have exceptions, because that's what realistically happens. Since its a story, they are all pretty much just one tone and are categorized without diversity.

So, no, my point is not that all humans like to hunt. Humans, since we are a real race, have immense variety. But that doesn't change my point that humans aren't that far from what Saiyans do. Of course we can also be much better in our best examples, but we aren't really that far from it.

That's conjecture.

Really? You think the cold war was a cold one because people evolved significantly or because they knew what "M.A.D." means? Heck, even with that, it still almost happened.

[ABED]

Really? You think the cold war was a cold one because people evolved significantly or because they knew what "M.A.D." means? Heck, even with that, it still almost happened.

We also had an enemy that didn't want to die. It would've been a radically different war had Islamic Totalitarians gotten the bomb seeing as how they consider death heroic. Also, we had a terrible foreign policy that kept the USSR around for at least a 10-20 years longer than it would have had we not bailed them out. You are missing the finer points of WW2 and the Cold War. You don't have to worry, the soviets and the Nazis aren't making it to another planet.

that doesn't change my point that humans aren't that far from what Saiyans do.

But you're still indicting the entire race for the actions of a few. Every single Saiyan was terrible, until Son Goku. We are far away from them. Our entire race aren't butchers. There are some that are, but I wouldn't categorize humans qua humans as barbarians.

[rereboy]

Yes it does, we are WAY better than them. Many of us learn, the Saiyans were always violent.

The Nazi's used the technology made possible by the west, and your example is an oversimplification of Germany. They weren't always socialists. There's a reason violent cultures are very poor. Violence wastes time and people. The more peaceful cultures are the one's that allow people to use their minds towards far more productive purposes. It sure as hell won't be the Middle East that creates interstellar travel.

Jeez, you are turning this into a huge confusion... This conversation is now way beyond my point....

Anyway... I will answer with topics:

- Actually, Saiyans were never shown to be more violent than certain societies of humans among themselves and in their society. They were only shown to be genocidal conquerers towards others races and civilizations.

- I will not discuss their achievements with you. Look it up if you are interested. Books and articles will answer much better than me.

- Your argument about violence is only relevant among races and people that are extremely violent among themselves and you are overestimating that factor. The main factors for scientific and technical improvement are the existence of resources and the spread of culture and scientific thought. Wars and violence by themselves don't necessarily impair them. In fact, like WW1 and WW2 showed, times of war can be a better catalyst for faster developments in technology that can be used in a wide range of areas than times without war.

[rereboy]

We also had an enemy that didn't want to die. It would've been a radically different war had Islamic Totalitarians gotten the bomb seeing as how they consider death heroic. Also, we had a terrible foreign policy that kept the USSR around for at least a 10-20 years longer than it would have had we not bailed them out. You are missing the finer points of WW2 and the Cold War. You don't have to worry, the soviets and the Nazis aren't making it to another planet.

Er... What? How does anything that you just said negate the fact that there was no real war because nuclear weapons refrain nations from engaging in war and conquest like before? It doesn't... At all. Everything you said is irrelevant to that simple point.

But you're still indicting the entire race for the actions of a few. Every single Saiyan was terrible, until Son Goku. We are far away from them. Our entire race aren't butchers. There are some that are, but I wouldn't categorize humans qua humans as barbarians.

And you are still ignoring that the Saiyans lacked diversity simply because they only exist in a simplistic story. If they were real, they would have diversity and not all would think the same. That argument just serves to confuse the issue...

Once again we have reached the point where the conversation can only go downhill since you are starting to argue things besides the point and ignore stuff I say. So, this is my exit.

[ABED]

- Actually, Saiyans were never shown to be more violent than certain societies of humans among themselves and in their society. They were only shown to be genocidal conquerers towards others races and civilizations.

If this was real, Saiyans would constantly infight and butcher themselves. I do think Vegeta was indicative of his entire race. I don't think Toriyama's work shows the keenest observation of human behavior (which is the basis for Saiyans, since we have never met aliens)

- Your argument about violence is only relevant among races and people that are extremely violent enough among themselves and you are overestimating that factor. The main factors for scientific and technical improvement are the existence of resources and the spread of culture and scientific thought. Wars and violence by themselves don't necessarily impair them. In fact, like WW1 and WW2 showed, times of war can be a better catalyst for faster developments in technology that can be used in a wide range of areas than times without war.

I'm not overestimating that factor every warring nation has also plenty of internal strife. The main factors for technical improvement are freedom and the human mind. The human mind is the ultimate resource. I know that sounds poetic, but it's not, it's true. Yes, wars definitely impair that. If you take resources away from productive uses or just destroy good capital, then you're wasting wealth. There are often big leaps during wars, true, but that's not where the bulk of innovation is done. It's done during times of peace because people are safe and can invest and grow their capital while not having to worry about its destruction.

I honestly don't think we have to worry about an Avatar situation. For one, I don't think humans will ever copy such a crappy, hackneyed movie, and second, the people that would go on such an interstellar voyage would want to travel to learn. They'd likely be scientists.

And you are still ignoring that the Saiyans lacked diversity simply because they only exist in a simplistic story. If they were real, they would have diversity and not all would think the same. That argument just serves to confuse the issue...

Even from what we see, they still had members of their race that were backstabbers, so it's not a stretch to think that quality was an aberration even in a fictional simplistic universe.

Bottom line, Vegeta was a member of a vicious race that I believe to be fundamentally more barbaric.

[dbzfan7]

Unless humans start going interstellar and bringing genocide to other planets, I wouldn't think so. Saiyans would considering it feeds their fighting appetite, and literal appetite since they tend to eat the folks of other planets.

We don't have to go to other planets. Colonialism and conquests are basically what the Saiyans did. And that wasn't even that long ago. The saiyans take it a step further by killing all of the population, but besides that... And even today the strongest reason why wars and conquests are rare nowadays is more thanks to the threat of nuclear weapons than because our mentality evolved.

And what if humans had intersellar travel? Is there any doubt that we would be off exploiting all the planets we could find?

Every Saiyan is pretty much always looking for a fight. They are a species literally bred for fighting and killing. This is why they keep their youth longer than humans. Humans don't go "Gee let's go have a fight to the death, that'll be swell". That's Saiyan mentality. They love that kind of fight. It thrills them. A good fight that nearly kills them makes them even stronger once they recover.

Difference being I doubt the first answer of humans would be to annihilate the planet. Saiyans wouldn't do talks, just mass genocide. I wouldn't call humans near the level of Saiyans, but this would make an interesting thread in itself.

Why not start a thread for this? This one is about if Vegeta was too easily forgiven. A Saiyan comparison to humans is an interesting thread I'd like to see.

[Hades]

I had an idea for a fic where Vegeta dies, and Enma decides to hold a trial because he can't tell whether Vegeta should go to heaven or hell. Perhaps it could be a two writer job where someone represents the prosecution and another represents the defence?