The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[apex_pretador]

A good deal. Back in DB after most major fights the characters would train for a couple of hours/days and become much stronger.

For example?

Apart from Goku's karin training (I mean he's a saiyan) there is not an instance I can remember.

Most of the scenes I remember are from Goku, but back then Toriyama hadn't even thought of Saiyans so the whole Zenkai thing doesn't apply, Goku's extremely rapid training gains are probably just as valid for the humans, perhaps to a lesser extent.

Zenkai was somewhat introduced in early DB

[ryan1227]

22nd Budokai Yamcha is around the same strength as Krillin was at that point who is stronger than King Chappa who is stronger than organic Tao.

Kuririn would easily defeat Yamcha. Kuririn was able to put up a good fight against semi-serious match level Goku.

Chapter: 122, P13.3-7
Kame-sennin: “Panput was truly a fearsomely skilled master, but only when seen from an ordinary level…To your eyes, however, he didn’t look like anything special…That shows just how much you two have acquired strength that surpasses the ordinary.”
Kuririn: “But…Yamcha lost, and he was about as good as me. And even I had a really tough fight against that runt.”
Kame-sennin: “There’s no helping that. It’s because your opponents were also super masters who have surpassed the ordinary.”

[PelicanDynasty]

Super Saiyan Blue Turtle vs

-Bear Thief
-BoDB Yamcha
-BoDB Goku

Basically a funny way to see how you guys have the multiplier for SSB

[dragonball0900]

It's more like this:

Goku = Piccolo >>> Kami >> Kami (Shen) >>> Tien > Weighted Goku = Tien (suppressed speed) > Post-Sacred Water Goku >= Young Piccolo Daimao > Krillin ~ Yamcha > Cyborg Tao > Chi-Chi = Old Piccolo Daimao > Yajirobe > Chiaotzu > Old Piccolo Daimao (<50%) >>> Drum > Pre-Scared Water Goku > Master Muatito ~ Young Muten Roshi > Goku (22nd Budokai) = Tien (22nd Budokai) > Tamborine >=< Jackie Chun (22nd Budokai) ~ Yajirobe >> Cymbal >=< Krillin (22nd Budokai)

Both Krillin and Yamcha were able to impress their respective opponents despite losing horribly (which is understandable since they're the strongest of the strongest). Tien was depicted as equal to Goku (Weighted) in straight abilities but Goku learned how to move without excessive movement and was faster once he showed his true speed.

I personally don't think there was ever a gap between Krillin and Yamcha since the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai till the beginning of DBZ.

It's just that the 177 number of Yamcha seems to be on the way. Unless we can say that Yamcha didn't trained at all during the 5 years of peace while Krillin did, and the gap between them became larger.
I mean, Krillin fought against Piccolo better than how Yamcha fought against Kami. I suppose Yamcha and Krillin being able to impress both of them it's because of how much power they have in comparison to other normal fighters. I mean look at Krillin, Piccolo kept one shooting many fighters on the preeliminarities and when he got to Krillin, he found out that there are unordinary people around. The same could be said between Kami and Yamcha.
Also, Yajirobe and Chiaotzu at the 23rd Budokai I wouldn't put them over Old Piccolo. Yajirobe doesn't even train, and Chiaotzu could have at least get to over Tien and Goku at the 22nd Budokai, and Chi Chi could probably be just at Krillin from the 22nd Budokai level, since she was considered by Roshi to being a master, then her power must be significant, but maybe not to surpass Roshi. But your list is good and I respect your opinion.

Krillin was serious from the start while Yamcha was letting Shen's outward goofy demeanor get to him plus Piccolo and Kami should know of unordinary fighters especially Piccolo since his entire reason for being at the tournament was to get back at Goku. Piccolo's revelation was that he knows of a few fighters that could challenge him.

I think Yajirobe trained for the tournament as we did see him there and Chiaotzu did go through similar as Tien but he was effortlessly defeated by Tao so obviously it didn't matter much in the end. The level of praise Muten Roshi gave to Chi-Chi was similar to that he gave of the Masked faster only he felt compelled to mention it in relation to her style resembling his and how she was able to apply some pressure on the suppressed Weighted Goku tells me she was meant to be a strong contender for the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Piccolo was only aware of 21st to 22n Budokai tier fighters, in the 23rd Budokai they got much stronger. Piccolo mentioned that it was gonna be difficult to take over the world with fighters like Krillin, who had a power so close to how his father was. As far as I'm aware, Piccolo has memories from his father (remembering Shenlong's death, etc). He only knows Goku's strenght (and also Tien's).

As for Yamcha and Kami, well that's to each person's opinion. Maybe he stopped the training during all those 5 years, but I just think that his power stayed the same as it is. Also, even if Yamcha didn't fought Kami from the start, the difference was still too big. Kami was much weaker than Piccolo, but much stronger than Tien, who is stronger than Krillin and Yamcha.

Yajirobe entered there maybe because he was already a strong fighter, and perhaps he thought he might have a chance. Maybe he trained but not that much, his power should probably stayed nearly the same as back in the King Piccolo arc, or maybe it rised a little bit. Chiaotzu, like you said, is weaker than Yajirobe, but stronger than Roshi. But given how much of a difference there seems to be between Cyborg Tao's and Chiaotzu's power, it seems to be far apart. In addition to this, Chiaotzu always trains, like Tien, but his potential doesn't seem to be that big. In DBZ, for instance, Yamcha was 177, and Roshi was 139. Chiaotzu's power wasn't even mentioned. Given how they intentionally read Roshi's power, maybe Chiaotzu could possibly be at 150-160 of power by DBZ.

Chi Chi might be stronger than Krillin 22nd Budokai and slightly weaker than Tsurusennin's level at best for Roshi to complement her. Goku didn't even try at that fight, and when he tried a tiny little bit of his strenght on her, he throw her out of the ring. Judging by the fight between Tao and Tien, it's obvious that Tien was holding back, but he didn't seem to do it as much as Goku vs Chi Chi. I just don't see Chi Chi landing a hit to Old King Piccolo, who was the most powerful at the time, not even Tien and Goku in the 22nd Budokai.

22nd Budokai Yamcha is around the same strength as Krillin was at that point who is stronger than King Chappa who is stronger than organic Tao.

Kuririn would easily defeat Yamcha. Kuririn was able to put up a good fight against semi-serious match level Goku.

Also, 22nd TB Chappa is a joke to Tao. He only surpasses him by the 23rd TB.

Muten Roshi, Yamcha and Krillin all witnessed Goku's power in the Baba arc, who is stronger than Tao Pai Pai. Yet after 3 years of training they thought Chappa was going to be a trouble for Goku. That implies:

Tao Pai Pai < Goku (Baba Arc) < 22nd Budokai Chappa < 22nd Budokai Goku (holding back)

On the fight vs Krillin, Goku fought Krillin so well, he even complement him and decided to fight more serious, meaning that Krillin is stronger than Chappa. BUT the same would happen if Yamcha fights Goku. Krillin stated that Yamcha and him were almost equal. I put Krillin a bit stronger, but they are certainly around the same level of strenght. Both equals fought Goku and Tien, who are also both equals. And both Yamcha/Krillin managed to make good fights until Tien/Goku decided to be a bit more serious. So:

Tao Pai Pai < Goku (Baba Arc) < 22nd Budokai Chappa < 22nd Budokai Goku (holding back) = 22nd Budokai Yamcha = 22nd Budokai Krillin < 22nd Budokai Goku (fighting more seriously)

[DBZAOTA482]

No, not at all. Chappa was feared due to his reputation, and has no feats to back it up. Death of tao pai pai at the hands of goku is treated as a MUCH bigger thing later, after everyone saw goku completely humiliate Chappa and pamput while heavily holding back.

Yamcha and Jackie Chun saw King Chappa in action but still couldn't believe Goku won so easily. They didn't overestimate King Chappa really, they underestimated Goku.

Also Jackie Chun likely only made a big deal of Taoi's death because he feared the wrath of the Crane School.

Kuririn would easily defeat Yamcha. Kuririn was able to put up a good fight against semi-serious match level Goku.

Also, 22nd TB Chappa is a joke to Tao. He only surpasses him by the 23rd TB.

Goku was holding back against Krillin very clearly. Once he got serious the battle was pretty much the same as when Tien started fighting more seriously against Yamcha.

Yamcha and Jackie Chun thought King Chappa would be a challenge to Goku despite knowing he'd be much stronger than when he beat Tao.

[Noah]

New matches: Gingertown Imperfect Cell runs the gauntlet: (Not survival mode)

- Earthlings (Chaozu, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Krillin)
- Mecha Freeza
- Fifth Form Coola
- Android 19
- Android 20
- Piccolo (pre-Kami)
- Super Saiyan Future Trunks (vs. Mecha Freeza)
- Super Saiyan Goku (fully cured from Heart Virus)
- Super Saiyan Vegeta (vs. 19)

[TheUltimateNinja]

Kuririn would easily defeat Yamcha. Kuririn was able to put up a good fight against semi-serious match level Goku.

Also, 22nd TB Chappa is a joke to Tao. He only surpasses him by the 23rd TB.

Goku was holding back against Krillin very clearly. Once he got serious the battle was pretty much the same as when Tien started fighting more seriously against Yamcha.

Yamcha and Jackie Chun thought King Chappa would be a challenge to Goku despite knowing he'd be much stronger than when he beat Tao.

Hence why I said semi-serious. Sure, once he actually used some of his real power he easily took out Kuririn but the gap between them isn't that large, I'd say it's slightly smaller than the gap between SSG Goku and Beerus in BoG. (Movie, not anime)

[TheUltimateNinja]

New matches: Gingertown Imperfect Cell runs the gauntlet: (Not survival mode)

- Earthlings (Chaozu, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Krillin)
- Mecha Freeza
- Fifth Form Coola
- Android 19
- Android 20
- Piccolo (pre-Kami)
- Super Saiyan Future Trunks (vs. Mecha Freeza)
- Super Saiyan Goku (fully cured from Heart Virus)
- Super Saiyan Vegeta (vs. 19)

If you take the 470 million BP as canon, he stops at Coola, Imperfect Cell (Post energy) could easily beat him though.

Otherwise he stops at Goku, who should be after Vegeta as Cell can beat SSJ Vegeta.

[ryan1227]

New matches: Gingertown Imperfect Cell runs the gauntlet: (Not survival mode)

- Earthlings (Chaozu, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Krillin)
- Mecha Freeza
- Fifth Form Coola
- Android 19
- Android 20
- Piccolo (pre-Kami)
- Super Saiyan Future Trunks (vs. Mecha Freeza)
- Super Saiyan Goku (fully cured from Heart Virus)
- Super Saiyan Vegeta (vs. 19)

Is he healed after each match? If so, he should clear, but otherwise he might lose too much stamina to defeat all three Super Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

New matches: Gingertown Imperfect Cell runs the gauntlet: (Not survival mode)

- Earthlings (Chaozu, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Krillin)
- Mecha Freeza
- Fifth Form Coola
- Android 19
- Android 20
- Piccolo (pre-Kami)
- Super Saiyan Future Trunks (vs. Mecha Freeza)
- Super Saiyan Goku (fully cured from Heart Virus)
- Super Saiyan Vegeta (vs. 19)

Is he healed after each match? If so, he should clear, but otherwise he might lose too much stamina to defeat all three Super Saiyan.

Goku (Post Virus) should be able to stop him, healed or not.

[Noah]

Is he healed after each match? If so, he should clear, but otherwise he might lose too much stamina to defeat all three Super Saiyan.

Elaborate a little more, would Cell know about 19 and 20 energy absorption?

Otherwise he stops at Goku, who should be after Vegeta as Cell can beat SSJ Vegeta.

So, you're saying that fully cured from Heart Virus Goku surpassed Vegeta that fought Android 18?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Otherwise he stops at Goku, who should be after Vegeta as Cell can beat SSJ Vegeta.

So, you're saying that fully cured from Heart Virus Goku surpassed Vegeta that fought Android 18?

Yeah. I have 18 >= Goku (Post Virus) >= Cell (Initial) > SSJ Vegeta >= Goku (Pre Virus)

[Noah]

Yeah. I have 18 >= Goku (Post Virus) >= Cell (Initial) > SSJ Vegeta >= Goku (Pre Virus)

But, there's no evidence to that, would say just because Goku was cured from Heart Virus that he suddenly surpassed Vegeta?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yeah. I have 18 >= Goku (Post Virus) >= Cell (Initial) > SSJ Vegeta >= Goku (Pre Virus)

But, there's no evidence to that, would say just because Goku was cured from Heart Virus that he suddenly surpassed Vegeta?

When he uses the Grade forms his power surpasses Semi-Perfect Cell, and that was very early on in Goku and Gohan's training when Goku didn't really do any training of his own and was mostly teaching Gohan how to use Super Saiyan so his power should pretty much be the same as when he went in, and for Grade 3 Goku to surpass Cell he has to be above Vegeta.

[Noah]

When he uses the Grade forms his power surpasses Semi-Perfect Cell, and that was very early on in Goku and Gohan's training when Goku didn't really do any training of his own and was mostly teaching Gohan how to use Super Saiyan, so his power should pretty much be the same as when he went in, and for Grade 3 Goku to surpass Cell he has to be above Vegeta.

Times flows differently in RoSaT, so that "very early" could be after several months later in the room, the fact is when Goku discovered about Super Saiyan Grades unlike Vegeta he didn't focus in the raw power these transformations provide and thought was better to train how to mantain the transformation. This evidence just implies that Goku was smarter than Vegeta not that he was stronger than him before entering in the RoSaT

[DBZAOTA482]

It's just that the 177 number of Yamcha seems to be on the way. Unless we can say that Yamcha didn't trained at all during the 5 years of peace while Krillin did, and the gap between them became larger.
I mean, Krillin fought against Piccolo better than how Yamcha fought against Kami. I suppose Yamcha and Krillin being able to impress both of them it's because of how much power they have in comparison to other normal fighters. I mean look at Krillin, Piccolo kept one shooting many fighters on the preeliminarities and when he got to Krillin, he found out that there are unordinary people around. The same could be said between Kami and Yamcha.
Also, Yajirobe and Chiaotzu at the 23rd Budokai I wouldn't put them over Old Piccolo. Yajirobe doesn't even train, and Chiaotzu could have at least get to over Tien and Goku at the 22nd Budokai, and Chi Chi could probably be just at Krillin from the 22nd Budokai level, since she was considered by Roshi to being a master, then her power must be significant, but maybe not to surpass Roshi. But your list is good and I respect your opinion.

Krillin was serious from the start while Yamcha was letting Shen's outward goofy demeanor get to him plus Piccolo and Kami should know of unordinary fighters especially Piccolo since his entire reason for being at the tournament was to get back at Goku. Piccolo's revelation was that he knows of a few fighters that could challenge him.

I think Yajirobe trained for the tournament as we did see him there and Chiaotzu did go through similar as Tien but he was effortlessly defeated by Tao so obviously it didn't matter much in the end. The level of praise Muten Roshi gave to Chi-Chi was similar to that he gave of the Masked faster only he felt compelled to mention it in relation to her style resembling his and how she was able to apply some pressure on the suppressed Weighted Goku tells me she was meant to be a strong contender for the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Piccolo was only aware of 21st to 22n Budokai tier fighters, in the 23rd Budokai they got much stronger. Piccolo mentioned that it was gonna be difficult to take over the world with fighters like Krillin, who had a power so close to how his father was. As far as I'm aware, Piccolo has memories from his father (remembering Shenlong's death, etc). He only knows Goku's strenght (and also Tien's).

As for Yamcha and Kami, well that's to each person's opinion. Maybe he stopped the training during all those 5 years, but I just think that his power stayed the same as it is. Also, even if Yamcha didn't fought Kami from the start, the difference was still too big. Kami was much weaker than Piccolo, but much stronger than Tien, who is stronger than Krillin and Yamcha.

Yajirobe entered there maybe because he was already a strong fighter, and perhaps he thought he might have a chance. Maybe he trained but not that much, his power should probably stayed nearly the same as back in the King Piccolo arc, or maybe it rised a little bit. Chiaotzu, like you said, is weaker than Yajirobe, but stronger than Roshi. But given how much of a difference there seems to be between Cyborg Tao's and Chiaotzu's power, it seems to be far apart. In addition to this, Chiaotzu always trains, like Tien, but his potential doesn't seem to be that big. In DBZ, for instance, Yamcha was 177, and Roshi was 139. Chiaotzu's power wasn't even mentioned. Given how they intentionally read Roshi's power, maybe Chiaotzu could possibly be at 150-160 of power by DBZ.

Chi Chi might be stronger than Krillin 22nd Budokai and slightly weaker than Tsurusennin's level at best for Roshi to complement her. Goku didn't even try at that fight, and when he tried a tiny little bit of his strenght on her, he throw her out of the ring. Judging by the fight between Tao and Tien, it's obvious that Tien was holding back, but he didn't seem to do it as much as Goku vs Chi Chi. I just don't see Chi Chi landing a hit to Old King Piccolo, who was the most powerful at the time, not even Tien and Goku in the 22nd Budokai.

If he's only aware of those levels then that shows he's still aware of strong fighters existing in the world.

Goku wasn't trying to win but he couldn't take her lightly either. He actually had to expand effort to block, parry, and evade her attacks rather than basically stand there and dodge them like Tien did Tao.... she even followed him up into the air and kept fighting with succession. The move Goku used to beat her was also more demonstratively impressive than Tien's shift gut punch as Muten Roshi was barely even able to make sense of it (and by proxy Krillin or Yamcha weren't either). Roshi's words was there to give hype to her character by painting as an extremely strong fighter... as in strong contender.

[ryan1227]

New matches: Gingertown Imperfect Cell runs the gauntlet: (Not survival mode)

- Earthlings (Chaozu, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Krillin)
- Mecha Freeza
- Fifth Form Coola
- Android 19
- Android 20
- Piccolo (pre-Kami)
- Super Saiyan Future Trunks (vs. Mecha Freeza)
- Super Saiyan Goku (fully cured from Heart Virus)
- Super Saiyan Vegeta (vs. 19)

Is he healed after each match? If so, he should clear, but otherwise he might lose too much stamina to defeat all three Super Saiyan.

Goku (Post Virus) should be able to stop him, healed or not.

Goku stated that he couldn't beat the androids or Cell, after being healed from his heart virus.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”

[TheUltimateNinja]

When he uses the Grade forms his power surpasses Semi-Perfect Cell, and that was very early on in Goku and Gohan's training when Goku didn't really do any training of his own and was mostly teaching Gohan how to use Super Saiyan, so his power should pretty much be the same as when he went in, and for Grade 3 Goku to surpass Cell he has to be above Vegeta.

Times flows differently in RoSaT, so that "very early" could be after several months later in the room, the fact is when Goku discovered about Super Saiyan Grades unlike Vegeta he didn't focus in the raw power these transformations provide and thought was better to train how to mantain the transformation. This evidence just implies that Goku is more experienced than Vegeta not that he was stronger than him before entering in the RoSaT

That was indeed very early into their training, it wasn't too long after Gohan unlocked SSJ. Goku just sits around watching Gohan train for a while as he tries to break the SSJ barrier, and once he discovers the Grade forms and shows them to Gohan his power is said to be higher than Cell's.

[apex_pretador]

No, not at all. Chappa was feared due to his reputation, and has no feats to back it up. Death of tao pai pai at the hands of goku is treated as a MUCH bigger thing later, after everyone saw goku completely humiliate Chappa and pamput while heavily holding back.

Yamcha and Jackie Chun saw King Chappa in action but still couldn't believe Goku won so easily. They didn't overestimate King Chappa really, they underestimated Goku.

Also Jackie Chun likely only made a big deal of Taoi's death because he feared the wrath of the Crane School.

Tien and Tsuresenin, both did not believe goku saying he killed tao, despite seeing chiaotzu vs krillin.

They believed that it wasn't a matter of strength, and only whn goku did the move he did at the end against krillin, do they believe his claim was true.

And no, they did overrate chappa, because Roshi thought he might be in trouble seeing there battle, and krillin, who is significantly below roshi, put up a far better fight against much less holding back goku.

[ryan1227]

Elaborate a little more, would Cell know about 19 and 20 energy absorption?

He didn't have knowledge of 16, but 19 and 20 were newer models, so I'm not sure. Even if he didn't know, SSj Vegeta got quite a bit of his energy absorbed by 19 and still obliterated him pretty easily, so the more powerful Cell should be able to as well.

Also, Cell's tail could allow him to kill at least one of the Super Saiyans instantly, so I say he clears even if he doesn't get healed after each match.