"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[Saiga]

I'm someone who sees SS1 Gotenks as being weaker than SS2 Vegeta. Makes sense for the surpassing thing if it's their respective full power. I just don't think fusion is something you can predict exactly, and Goku overestimated what Gotenks would be since he had never seen him.

I don't put too much stock into what Piccolo says since he's quite obviously wrong, and Gotenks isn't even 1/400th of Boo's strength and shouldn't be around even Fat Boo's strength. Piccolo just jumped the gun there.

I just don't think the manga really supports Gotenks, Gohan and Evil Boo being dozens or even hundreds of times stronger than the others, which is what happens when you use the official multipliers with that theory.

[Draken]

I go by SSJ1 Gotenks roughly half of SSJ3 Goku, making SSJ3 Gotenks 4x SSJ3 Goku. Works enough for me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The manga alone has enough evidence that place SS Gotenks (pre) above SS2 Goku & Vegeta, and possibly even Innocent Boo, and Evil Boo, SS3 Gotenks, and U. Gohan above SS3 Goku.

Goku was sure that SS Gotenks would be more than enough to kill Innocent Boo even without training inside the RoSaT (by his estimations), and Piccolo, after witnessing SS Gotenks' power, also believed the same, since he didn't have Gotenks enter inside the RoSaT, until Evil Boo was formed. It's also possible that SS Gotenks (pre) could be stronger than SS3 Goku, since that's what Goku said, but Goku was lying about his power at that point so it's questionable.

Goku said clearly that he couldn't beat Evil Boo (who is weaker than SS3 Gotenks, and even weaker than U. Gohan) even with Vegeta's help, was panicked once Evil Boo turned into S. Kaioshin Boo, but calmed down once he turned into Pure Boo, saying that they finally made it, and that they can now manage something without Fusion or Potara. This turned out false once he found out that an alive SS3 has a time-limit, and suggested to bring Gohan & Gotenks to fight (this doesn't necessarily imply that he means that they would have to fight together, but previous statements prove that they can do it alone), but Vegeta made another suggestion so that the Earthlings would defend the Earth with their own power for once, which is the Super Genki Dama.

The guide books support these (they say that Evil Boo got weaker once he turned into Pure Boo, and that U. Gohan is stronger than a Super Saiyan 3), and add that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. Given to what the manga implies, the only logical conclusion is that base Gotenks surpassed SS2 Vegeta. If we also take the SS multipliers (x50/100/400), and assume that Fusion is a stable multiplier for everyone (Gogeta is stated to be dozens of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta, and Gotenks is stated to be many times stronger than Goten or Trunks, but the same thing that was said for Gotenks was also said for Vegetto, who is obviously many dozens of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta, so Gotenks can also be many dozens of times stronger than Goten or Trunks), we have that SS Gotenks (pre) is many times stronger than SS3 Goku, since Goten's & Trunks' feats put them at least 2 times weaker than the adults while in the same form. And I really don't see the issue in having SS Gotenks >>> SS3 Goku when people easily accept that SS Gogeta >>> SS3 Goku.

[dbgtFO]

While I myself think Gotenks already was stronger than Vegeta(closer to Goku than Vegeta actually) before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, this line does imply he wasn't.
Unlike others I don't think it makes much sense to say A surpassed B, when A had already surpassed B just in a more advanced form.
As far as I'm concerned they just seem to word the statement as Gotenks being less than or equal to Vegeta before the RoSaT, when both at full power.

It's perhaps silly to demand that the Daizenshuu writers to explain themselves, but dammit that's just how I feel, when they put statements in there, that's suppossed to be summarizing the manga, yet somehow ended up with something that isn't even hinted at.

Even if it was just a "well he's at least this strong" statement, they still end up indirectly stating Gotenks before RoSaT was weaker than Vegeta, when he could actually have been stronger, than Vegeta before going in.

I guess in the end though it's all just a product of Toriyama not being very clear, if Gotenks really ended up as strong or stronger than Fat Buu as he should have.

[Draken]

At the time, Goku and Vegeta were showed to be dead equal in equal forms, so saying he surpassed Vegeta is the same as saying he surpassed Goku. Or heck, you could even interpret that line as saying Vegeta is slightly stronger than Goku at the time.

[Darkprince410]

At the time, Goku and Vegeta were showed to be dead equal in equal forms, so saying he surpassed Vegeta is the same as saying he surpassed Goku. Or heck, you could even interpret that line as saying Vegeta is slightly stronger than Goku at the time.

Well again, Vegeta's maximum form at the time was only Super Saiya-jin 2, while Goku's was Super Saiya-jin 3. If the line, as some interpret it, is that Gotenks in his base form surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta, then he'd have surpassed Vegeta and the others, but still wouldn't have surpassed Goku, because Goku's Ssj3 form would still be above Gotenks' base form.

[flashback0180]

If you include BOG('s inference/suggestion/point that) Vegeta surpasse(s/d) SS3 Goku...

Since Gotenks was nothing in front of Beerus he was depowered by a few spanks. At least Vegeta lasted a while longer and landed a few punches on Beerus .

and others -NO (huh?)

Like Vegito, Gogeta, SSJG & SSJ4 Goku, Ultra- Super Buu, Super Janenba, Super Android 18 (17?), Baby, Omega Shenron, and other evil dragons are all too overpowered for Gotenks.

[VegettoEX]

flashback0180, since you're dropping terms and names from FUNimation's English dub, I'm going to make an assumption that English is your native language. Please let us know if this is not the case.

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[Hugo Boss]

If you include BOG's inference/suggestion/point that Vegeta surpassed SS3 Goku...

Since Gotenks was nothing in front of Beerus he was depowered by a few spanks. At least Vegeta lasted a while longer and landed a few punches on Beerus.

Well noted. This interpretation suggests SS3 Goku was the current strongest character before Beerus showing off at BoG. Maybe DBZ's manga has some points up to be cleared. After losing his calm, SS Vegeta was fairing better than anyone besides God Goku against Beerus.

[Draken]

Well we never actually saw SSJ3 Gotenks fight Beers.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Well we never actually saw SSJ3 Gotenks fight Beers.

But we saw Ultimate Gohan fight him and Gohan is much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. It appears that didn't turn out well.

[Darkprince410]

Well we never actually saw SSJ3 Gotenks fight Beers.

But we saw Ultimate Gohan fight him and Gohan is much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. It appears that didn't turn out well.

Gohan still fared far better than Ssj3 Goku did in fighting Beers though, as it took Beers slamming his and Buu's head together with some force to take him out, whereas Goku was taken out by a rather casual chop to the neck after taking a flick to the forehead.

[Draken]

Well we never actually saw SSJ3 Gotenks fight Beers.

But we saw Ultimate Gohan fight him and Gohan is much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. It appears that didn't turn out well.

Gohan still fared far better than Ssj3 Goku did in fighting Beers though, as it took Beers slamming his and Buu's head together with some force to take him out, whereas Goku was taken out by a rather casual chop to the neck after taking a flick to the forehead.

After the head slam Beers also kicked Gohan pretty squarely in the chest.

And Gohan actually managed to catch Beers a little off guard. In their little skirmish you can notice Beers turning his head as Gohan is approaching, but was unable to stop him from grabbing him and had to throw him off. Goku never managed to catch Beers off guard like that.

[Hugo Boss]

It's really difficult to use these character performances to guess their powerlevels. Like this even SS Vegeta before losing his calm fared better than Gohan in battle sense and toughness, but he still wasn't said to be more powerful than SS3 Goku. As you said, Gohan managed to catch Beerus off guard, but Beerus had attention and his left hand occupied with Boo and easily used the right hand to grab Gohan's hair. His only option to beat Gohan at the moment was using his legs or continue the head slam like there's no tomorrow. As a martial artist I would prefer using my legs. Poor Boo was practically beaten by the first kiai, but the thing about the flick and the chop is that these seemed impossibly heavy attacks in Beerus' arsenal if used property and Goku was his only opponent to have attention with.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There isn't any definitive proof that puts SS3 Goku & Enraged SS2 Vegeta above U. Gohan & SS Gotenks in BoG.

Beerus is supposed to be the strongest guy we've seen so far, even stronger than Super Vegetto, who is far, far, faaa~aaar stronger than all 4 of them combined. Yes, Gohan & Gotenks were instantly KOed by Beerus, and yes, only Goku & Vegeta managed to impress Beerus. But all 4 of them were defeated equally easily. There is also the fact that Goku & Vegeta didn't make Beerus angry, with Beerus allowing both of them to go all-out and see if any of them is the Super Saiyan God, while Gohan & Gotenks annoyed Beerus: Gohan got in his way while beating Boo, and Gotenks reminded him of pudding. But Goku didn't make him angry, so he went all out as a Super Saiyan 3, and got his ass kicked. Vegeta also went all-out and got his ass kicked, until Bulma got slapped by Beerus. Vegeta's power-up was bigger than what Beerus was expecting, which caught Beerus off-guard, and Beerus' comment "he wasn't the Super Saiyan God either" implies that Beerus allowed Vegeta to hit him. Which means that we can't really tell the difference between U. Gohan, SS(3) Gotenks, SS3 Goku, and Enraged SS2 Vegeta, other than then fact that Enraged SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku.

But the manga & its guidebooks already have enough evidence that even during the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, SS3 Goku is still weaker than SS Gotenks, let alone SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan, and the same probably goes for Enraged SS2 Vegeta as well.

[MDSTSSJ]

I go by SSJ1 Gotenks roughly half of SSJ3 Goku, making SSJ3 Gotenks 4x SSJ3 Goku. Works enough for me.

And for me my friend!!Quite conceivable!!

There isn't any definitive proof that puts SS3 Goku & Enraged SS2 Vegeta above U. Gohan & SS Gotenks in BoG.

But the manga & its guidebooks already have enough evidence that even during the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, SS3 Goku is still weaker than SS Gotenks, let alone SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan, and the same probably goes for Enraged SS2 Vegeta as well.

There is NO sufficient evidence my wise forum friend.

Many people tend to underpower SSJ3 Goku without any solid basis and that sometimes bothers me a little. Many people here close their minds to any possibility when talking about Kakarotto powers and his unlimited range that has proven/earned through all Dragon Ball. Many people here do not want to recognize what Kakarotto is capable through time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is NO sufficient evidence my wise forum friend.

Many people tend to overpower SSJ3 Goku without any solid basis and that sometimes bothers me a little. Many people here close their minds to any possibility when talking about Kakarotto powers and his unlimited range that has proven/earned through all Dragon Ball. Many people here do not want to recognize what Kakarotto is capable through time.

Goku wasn't sure if he would be able to beat Oob, and I don't buy that Goku managed to surpass his SS3 from 5 years ago in his base, when he couldn't surpass Freeza after 14 years + 1 year in RoSaT.

[MDSTSSJ]

I'm someone who sees SS1 Gotenks as being weaker than SS2 Vegeta. Makes sense for the surpassing thing if it's their respective full power. I just don't think fusion is something you can predict exactly, and Goku overestimated what Gotenks would be since he had never seen him.

I don't put too much stock into what Piccolo says since he's quite obviously wrong, and Gotenks isn't even 1/400th of Boo's strength and shouldn't be around even Fat Boo's strength. Piccolo just jumped the gun there.

I just don't think the manga really supports Gotenks, Gohan and Evil Boo being dozens or even hundreds of times stronger than the others, which is what happens when you use the official multipliers with that theory.

I agree!!! And again, very conceivable!!

Not everything is a fact in the Boo Saga. There is lies, plots, overpower and underpower estimations, messes, etc!!

[MDSTSSJ]

Goku wasn't sure if he would be able to beat Oob, and I don't buy that Goku managed to surpass his SS3 from 5 years ago in his base, when he couldn't surpass Freeza after 14 years + 1 year in RoSaT.

Kakarotto says the same thing in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai about Mr. Boo who is a lot weaker than Fat Boo and Pure Boo. You really think that Kakarotto could lose against Mr. Buu in his SSJ3 form? He's clearly talking that he maybe could lose against them in his base state.

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku wasn't sure if he would be able to beat Oob, and I don't buy that Goku managed to surpass his SS3 from 5 years ago in his base, when he couldn't surpass Freeza after 14 years + 1 year in RoSaT.

Kakarotto says the same thing in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai about Mr. Boo who is a lot weaker than Fat Boo and Pure Boo. You really think that Kakarotto could lose against Mr. Buu in his SSJ3 form? He's clearly talking that he maybe could lose against them in his base state.

In a tournament setting? Yes, I think he could lose. Goku can only last 5 or so minutes in SSJ3, so he's definitely not going to outlast Buu, regardless of his strength superiority. He's not going to annihilate Buu, since killing in a tournament is bad and all, and punching Buu doesn't accomplish anything. Short of just killing him, Goku can't really do anything to Buu, and he'll eventually tire himself out.