"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[OWmyDragonBallz]

The Daizenshuu 7 states that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta until after training in the ROSAT. That puts Pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks below SSJ2 Vegeta .
Sure there is speculation in the quote that he only meant his "base form", but who in their right mind would even begin to speculate it like that. I see it as a mere flaw from the Daizenshuu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SS Gotenks pre was already stronger than SS2 Vegeta, so it must be talking about base Gotenks post surpassing SS2 Vegeta.

[Zantetsuken]

Lol, no he wasn't. That's your opinion - and it's not supported by fact, nor does it reperesent the opinion of the community as a whole.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Lol, no he wasn't. That's your opinion - and it's not supported by fact, nor does it reperesent the opinion of the community as a whole.

SS2 Vegeta couldn't beat Fat Boo, yet Piccolo only lost hope for SS Gotenks when Fat Boo turned into Evil Boo. I fail to understand how that makes SS Gotenks weaker than SS2 Vegeta. And Goku was also confident that SS Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Boo without RoSaT.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Super Saiyan Gotenks was most likely stronger than every Super Saiyan 2. Base Gotenks was probably on-par or weaker than a Super Saiyan 2.

Piccolo even makes note of Super Saiyan Gotenks's incredible Chi and only wonders about how his speed correlates with his huge power. I don't think he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but he's easily stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Super Saiyan Gotenks was most likely stronger than every Super Saiyan 2. Base Gotenks was probably on-par or weaker than a Super Saiyan 2.

Piccolo even makes note of Super Saiyan Gotenks's incredible Chi and only wonders about how his speed correlates with his huge power. I don't think he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but he's easily stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Are you going by the multipliers from SEG? Because if base Gotenks is weaker or equal with the Super Saiyan 2s, that makes SS Gotenks around 12 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

[Tyro]

Super Saiyan Gotenks was most likely stronger than every Super Saiyan 2. Base Gotenks was probably on-par or weaker than a Super Saiyan 2.

Piccolo even makes note of Super Saiyan Gotenks's incredible Chi and only wonders about how his speed correlates with his huge power. I don't think he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but he's easily stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Like DBZGTKOSDH said, using the SEG's multipliers and the assumption that SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) ~ SS3 Goku, we can work backwards and determine that base Gotenks is approximately 8x stronger than base Goku. Using theoretical numbers that I know everyone happens to enjoy:

Goku: 1
Super Saiyan: 50
Super Saiyan 2: 100
Super Saiyan 3: 400

Gotenks (pre): 8
Super Saiyan: 400

[Zantetsuken]

Lol, no he wasn't. That's your opinion - and it's not supported by fact, nor does it reperesent the opinion of the community as a whole.

SS2 Vegeta couldn't beat Fat Boo, yet Piccolo only lost hope for SS Gotenks when Fat Boo turned into Evil Boo. I fail to understand how that makes SS Gotenks weaker than SS2 Vegeta. And Goku was also confident that SS Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Boo without RoSaT.

Because there is nothing that confirms that he's near Vegeta's level, save for Piccolo going "hmm, impressive"
We DO know however that Gotenks is stated to not surpass Vegeta (Goku is not mentioned) meaning they can't be talking about base forms - Goku and Vegeta are virtually the same, outside of Goku's SSJ3 ability. So The comment that base Gotenks powered up hundred of times from 6 hours of training is crazy.

I'll go by the guidebooks and ignore the fan theories.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Eh, I don't really go by multipliers, as they tend to confuse me more than I need to be. I just don't think Base Gotenks is that weak. Piccolo does consider him incredible, but just not at a level capable of beating Boo. This, of course, can mean anything, but we don't have much else to go on.

[Zantetsuken]

Eh, I don't really go by multipliers, as they tend to confuse me more than I need to be. I just don't think Base Gotenks is that weak. Piccolo does consider him incredible, but just not at a level capable of beating Boo. This, of course, can mean anything, but we don't have much else to go on.

Well, we have the quote from above. He's strong, just not stronger than vegeta until SSJ3

[RandomGuy96]

Inevitable CODE PINK incoming.

Anyway, Daizenshuu 10 and Daizenshuu 7, when taken together, already confirm the superiority of Super Saiyan Gotenks over Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, by saying that Goten is equal to Cell Games Gohan, and that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than that (presuambly it is comparing their respective base forms, but I suppose it could also be comparing their respective maxes). Even if you don't consider D10 "canon" for whatever reason, D7 still says that fusion is closer to multiplication than addition, which again makes it impossible for SS2 Vegeta to be stronger than SS Gotenks. So it has to be talking about base Gotenks, which would explain why that blurb is put next to a picture of base Gotenks.

[Zantetsuken]

Inevitable CODE PINK incoming.

Anyway, Daizenshuu 10 and Daizenshuu 7, when taken together, already confirm the superiority of Super Saiyan Gotenks over Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, by saying that Goten is equal to Cell Games Gohan, and that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than that (presuambly it is comparing their respective base forms, but I suppose it could also be comparing their respective maxes). Even if you don't consider D10 "canon" for whatever reason, D7 still says that fusion is closer to multiplication than addition, which again makes it impossible for SS2 Vegeta to be stronger than SS Gotenks. So it has to be talking about base Gotenks, which would explain why that blurb is put next to a picture of base Gotenks.

It says Leveled up - implying that Gotenks need to level enough to surpass SSJ2 Vegeta. If he was as strong, or stronger before ROSAT, there would be no need to mention it.

FYI, Goku and Vegeta must be leaps and bounds ahead of Goten and Trunks - Goku wasn't even impressed by them at full power, while Vegeta wasn't sure how much Goku progressed from the Cell saga. So either Goku was stronger than Gohan in the Cell Saga, or Gotenks isn't as strong as Gohan.

[Kakashi]

Obviously it means Base Gotenks as it's the picture next to the information

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gohan & Vegeta were impressed with Goten's & Trunks' powers, and they acted as good sparing partners for each of them. Goku probably wasn't impressed because he wasn't underestimating them, unlike Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, #18, etc, who thought that they were just kids. The kids were also stronger than #18. They are much weaker than the adults, but they are still not very far. The difference is less than x2 IMO.

[Darkprince410]

He wasn't impressed by their full power because he already knew how powerful they'd be given what he had seen so far. After seeing how powerful the boys were, and knowing the ins and outs of the fusion from what he had seen with the Metamorese, he knew that Gotenks would be able to defeat Fat Buu. Even though he mentions that it's a gamble, why would he risk the future of the world on two boys if the resulting fusion between the two wouldn't be stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta? He didn't intend for them to use the Room of Spirit and Time, because he felt they wouldn't need it, and if Gotenks was anywhere below where Goku believed they would be (i.e. stronger than both he and Vegeta at Ssj2), then Piccolo would have instantly made note of it. He has called out strength issues repeatedly in the past, so why would he hold off now if Gotenks wasn't near where Goku said he'd be?

For Gotenks to be weaker than Goku in the same form, at the very, very least (going by a formula of the boys' battle powers just being added together to make Gotenks' battle power), Goku would need to be twice as strong as they are. Given though that it's established that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than Goten and Trunks, that'd mean that Goku was dozens of times stronger as well, which is simply impossible given what we're shown and told.

Given the combination of what's written in the databook and the image accompanying it, it's pretty clear that it's meaning that Gotenks had surpassed Vegeta in his base form.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Obviously it means Base Gotenks as it's the picture next to the information

I agree.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

The Daizenshuu 7 states that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta until after training in the ROSAT. That puts Pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks below SSJ2 Vegeta .
Sure there is speculation in the quote that he only meant his "base form", but who in their right mind would even begin to speculate it like that. I see it as a mere flaw from the Daizenshuu.

I like your avatar

Thank you, Janemba is my favorite movie villain.

[Zantetsuken]

Gohan & Vegeta were impressed with Goten's & Trunks' powers, and they acted as good sparing partners for each of them. Goku probably wasn't impressed because he wasn't underestimating them, unlike Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, #18, etc, who thought that they were just kids. The kids were also stronger than #18. They are much weaker than the adults, but they are still not very far. The difference is less than x2 IMO.

It doesn't seem like it according to Goku's reaction of "That's it?"

[Zantetsuken]

Obviously it means Base Gotenks as it's the picture next to the information

Except you ignored what I said above
"After ROSAT - Leveled up enough - Surpass Vegeta"

Yea - obviously not talking about Base Gotenks.

[RandomGuy96]

Obviously it is, because the the same book (and the same series) also establishes that SS Gotenks was already stronger than SS2 Vegeta, then put that blurb next to a picture of base Gotenks. No amount of cherry picking will change that.