The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

[hleV]

The fact that #17 and #18 cannot be sensed suggests that their human-type power is... well... that of a human, let's say a battle power of 5. Now if they can surpass their artificial power by merely training, it would mean that their normal and artificial powers are compatible and add up. So it's their artificial power + whatever they can achieve through training. I don't know how much sense that makes, but the concept of androids is weird to begin with, so this particular Toriyama tidbit isn't too out there, I guess.

[Herms]

One potentially scary thing concerning 17 and 18 becoming stronger through training is that they can't be sensed(unless I'm mis-remembering and that's only 19 and 20).

No, it's 17 and 18 too. But then in GT it seems like they can be sensed. Hmm...maybe it's because they've been training?

The whole "can't be sensed" thing has always struck me as a bit weird. Gohan says it's because they must not have ki, but then, practically all the androids use techniques that seem identical to standard ki blasts, so what gives? I guess we can assume they've got something that's equivalent to ki, but due to artificial manipulation is still different enough that it can't be sensed. I've started to think it must be something similar to the "clear, high quality" ki of the gods mentioned in BoG.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

One potentially scary thing concerning 17 and 18 becoming stronger through training is that they can't be sensed(unless I'm mis-remembering and that's only 19 and 20).

No, it's 17 and 18 too. But then in GT it seems like they can be sensed. Hmm...maybe it's because they've been training?

The whole "can't be sensed" thing has always struck me as a bit weird. Gohan says it's because they must not have ki, but then, practically all the androids use techniques that seem identical to standard ki blasts, so what gives? I guess we can assume they've got something that's equivalent to ki, but due to artificial manipulation is still different enough that it can't be sensed. I've started to think it must be something similar to the "clear, high quality" ki of the gods mentioned in BoG.

I always assumed that the Z fighters cant sense Ki through metal because its artificial. Goku often says that the androids "have no soul" when he tried to sense them. Maybe 17 and 18 have metal/lead skeletons that make it hard to see through, like led for Superman.

[hleV]

Z fighters not being able to sense ki through metal is a ridiculous theory.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Z fighters not being able to sense ki through metal is a ridiculous theory.

Its not impossible or unlikely. What other coincidence do cyborgs have with being unnatural? There is no reason otherwise why it wouldn't work unless youre just going to blame Akira Toriyama for not telling you every exact possible detail.

Alright, so THIS paragraph really interested me the most...

"In the case of modified-human types like No. 17 and No. 18, since they’re human-based they can become stronger if they train. By the way, though they don’t need to eat, they do need to hydrate. Also, their cells deteriorate slowly, so they age slowly too."

...Especially the part I bolded. From an in-universe perspective, the idea of 17 and 18 being able to increase their power by training is, somehow, pretty novel. When you consider that, apparently, their power has been "biologically artificial" in some way all this time, rather than drawing from some sort of mechanical battery or reactor, it does make sense that they could train to get stronger.

Its hard for me to understand here, as we know that 17/18 never lose energy when they raise it over time like Sayians do but it is never mentioned if they can power down. Though the idea that them being able to train and get stronger is weird, it was always implied before that they had a set power cap but no recoil. I mean at least when you compare them to the fact that 19/20/Super 17 need energy to stockpile to replace what they waste.

[hleV]

With the excepion of Cell, androids aren't using ki. I thought it was obvious.

[Kaboom]

The way I've come to see it, Gero simply took what little normal human ki they already had and was able to somehow convert it into something resembling Android energy, as well as enhance it to the insane level of power they had. Aside from the limitless stamina and so forth, their power still otherwise operates like normal human ki, allowing them to do fancy things with it like amplifying it for a barrier, or shaping it for a kienzan, and so on.

Z fighters not being able to sense ki through metal is a ridiculous theory.

Oh really? Then whats your theory -since you clearly know the answer- What other coincidence do cyborgs have with being unnatural? There is no reason otherwise why it wouldn't work unless youre just going to blame Akira Toriyama for not telling you every exact possible detail.

I feel that I should point out that 17 and 18 aren't "made of metal." They're almost entirely human, with the only mechanical parts being their remote control and self-destruction devices.

[Mr.Judge]

It's literally the latest update, right at the top, on the home page of the site.

Thanks.


Other theory would be since they are fitted with infinite/unlimited energy/ki generators, they are able to generate Ki only when they need but when they walk/run they are basically Robots?(Similar to Kuririn and Gohan in Namek Saga, who take small leaps and avoid any moves that require Ki in order to avoid being detected by Vegeta.)
Or
Goku Ki-sensing was less developed during that time.
Or
Goku cant sense during that arc because the villains are protected by Plot-armor.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

With the excepion of Cell, androids aren't using ki. I thought it was obvious.

Obvious? Based on what evidence? They couldnt sense Beerus either but he was still using a form of masked ki.19/20 are androids that cant be sensed either but absorb ki.

Obviously they being artificial masks it from senses.
Cell is a living organism created with flesh from flesh, thus why he can be sensed. Why would 17/19 not be using ki but Cell would?

[hleV]

Cell's power is natural (ki) because he's made of various fighters' cells as opposted to having an artificial power source installed inside of him.
#17 and #18's power source is their infinite energy reactors - an obviously artificial thing. Pay attention on how they never display a ki aura. Does metal (which they have very little at best inside their bodies) block that off, too? Might as well just block them off of using ki attacks, if that were the case.
Obviously #19 and #20's absorbed ki energy was converted to a usable artificial one, unless you believe that a purely artificial being like #19 would actually be able to effectively use the spiritual ki energy which is supposedly made of three things #19 doesn't have.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

17 and 18's infinite energy reactors are organic, along with almost all the other modifications (except the shut down controller parts and the self destruct device). So they are basically in a similar boat to Cell.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Artificial Humans #1-20 were modified by Dr. Gero directly, so I guess he converted their ki into a new type of energy so that they won't be sensed. Cell doesn't have this because, even though he was created in a lab, he didn't receive any modifications after he was born. If Dr. Gero was still alive, maybe he would modify Cell so that he would have untraceable energy like the others.

[auspx]

I bet next we will find out that Saiyans are really ancient humans [wereapes] that travel to Planet Vegeta many years ago, they evolved and adapted on Plant Pant over time.

Unfortunately AT might really do this... and make Beerus the reason for it.

[Low Tone G]

I bet next we will find out that Saiyans are really ancient humans [wereapes] that travel to Planet Vegeta many years ago, they evolved and adapted on Plant Pant over time.

Unfortunately AT might really do this... and make Beerus the reason for it.

I hope he doesn't as there are many human-like creatures in the universe.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

If anyone were to split a batch of humans into Earthlings and Saiyans, it'd have been the Kaioshin. It's in their new job description as creators. Relevant except from Chozenshu #1 interview:

Rather than Kaiōshin-sama making planets, he is able to provide the impetus for them to be born. Also, he will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. He will even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but his basic job is to watch over the numerous planets. Because the number of planets is so very large, the four Kaiō-sama help him out as well. They intervene if it appears that the world’s balance will crumble, but normally, they merely act in an advisory role for new life-forms, and don’t get involved.

[Low Tone G]

If anyone were to split a batch of humans into Earthlings and Saiyans, it'd have been the Kaioshin. It's in their new job description as creators. Relevant except from Chozenshu #1 interview:

Rather than Kaiōshin-sama making planets, he is able to provide the impetus for them to be born. Also, he will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. He will even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but his basic job is to watch over the numerous planets. Because the number of planets is so very large, the four Kaiō-sama help him out as well. They intervene if it appears that the world’s balance will crumble, but normally, they merely act in an advisory role for new life-forms, and don’t get involved.

Even if I don't like to think about to be true, that would explain why could the saiyans and humans have common off-springs. I really hope the two species have not the same root.

[dbgtFO]

It's funny because I myself had an elaborate fanon idea, where Saiyans previously were Earthlings. I doubt Toriyama will claim this as their background story though.

So after agreeing with a lot of users in this thread, I only have one question:
Why is that Saikyo Jump interview called the "Twel-Buu Mysteries?"

[VegettoEX]

Why is that Saikyo Jump interview called the "Twel-Buu Mysteries?"

It's about the Buu arc and it's twelve questions long.

While "twelve" in Japanese is usually spoken/written as 十二 (jū ni), if you Japanese-ify "our" reading of the number "twelve" into something like (and I don't know the best approximation, so by all means correct me) something like toueibu or some such.

Basically, it's a pun on "twelve" and "buu".

[dbgtFO]

Ah, I thought there was some deeper meening, but it was really that simple, huh.
Thanks.

[Hellspawn28]

Anyone starting to like Buu's new origin? At first I didn't care for it, but now it's starting to grow on me. I like the Buu being an ancient evil who has always existed now.